BJJ Fanatics 673: Jake O'Driscoll

Speaker 1: Welcome back to the BJJ Fanatics Podcast. I'm your host Ryan Ford. My guest today is a second-degree black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He's also an IBJJF Pan Pacific champion and a multiple-time IBJJF champion and other titles as well. He was an M16 Super Fight winner, a Samurai Fight Series Super Fight winner. He's also the coach of multiple ADCC, IBJJF, Who's Number One, Grapple Fest, and Polaris champions, including Adele Fornarino, Keith Kade, and Mo Black, just to name a few. He teaches out of Essence Jiu-Jitsu in Perth, Australia. Ladies and gentlemen, it's my pleasure to be joined today by Jake O'Driscoll. How are you today, Jake? Speaker 2: Yeah, really good, man. Thank you so much for having me on. Uh, obviously been a big fan of the podcast for so long, listened to it, uh, for a very long time, so it's a bit surreal to to to be on, to be fair, and, uh, I really appreciate you you having me here. Speaker 1: That man, Jake, that really does mean a lot to me, man. Thank you so much for being a long-time listener. It means a lot to me that someone of your caliber tunes in all the time. So, uh, the honor is mine and I really do appreciate it. Um, Jake, if you don't mind, yeah, the question I always like to start with, tell us about where you're from originally and what life was like before you found Jiu-Jitsu. Speaker 2: Yeah, man. So I'm, uh, I'm still in Perth, WA, uh, all the way out in in Australia. It's the most, uh, isolated major city in the world. Um, was born and bred here. My gym's in a little suburb called Belmont. That's, uh, I grew up there as well, my whole life. Um, played Aussie Rules Footy when I was younger, uh, which most Australians do, and like most Aussies, they think they're going to make it and be a superstar on the football field, and I thought the same thing, and, uh, when that didn't happen, I started boxing for a little bit, and my boxing coach, we we would I was getting like private lessons, um, from a boxing instructor, and and he, uh, told me I should wrestle with his guys that were doing Jiu-Jitsu, and I didn't want to do it. And, uh, funnily enough, uh, one of the guys is still he's got a gym near mine now. His name is Romel Luistro. He's got two guys in the UFC at the moment, one of them being Kwin Kilde, who's just absolutely tearing it up at the moment. Yeah, they're about 10 minutes from my gym. So Romel Luistro was it was actually the first guy I ever rolled with. Um, and I was under his tutelage for a long period of time, and I basically quit football and pursued Jiu-Jitsu and and did everything career-wise that I could to make sure I spent as much time on the mats as I could until I could open my own gym, and then, um, yeah, then I got into the the coaching side of it just more recently in terms of like professionally, I I would say, um, professional coaching. Uh, but teaching in my own gym, I think this is eight years now I've had this place, so, so it's been nice. It's been a good ride. Speaker 1: That's really incredible, man. It's so funny about I I want to say maybe nine years ago or so, I was talking to Heegan Machado, uh, privately, and Heegan told me, man, keep your eyes on Australia. I said, Australia? He goes, dude, I'm telling you, keep your eyes on Australia. And it wasn't too much longer after that, you know, Lachlan Giles, Craig Jones, Adele, uh, um, all these guys started popping up, and I was like, damn, dude, Heegan Heegan knew what was up. He knew what was going on. The scene the scene in Australia has become very strong, uh, in the last decade. Speaker 2: The Machado association is pretty big here, so I I think he would have visited like quite a bit and and seen a lot, but there is a lot of talent here, man. There's a lot of talent coming through. I'm very lucky to get to work with a lot of those talented athletes and and speak to a lot of those talented coaches too, um, quite a bit. You know, the the community's pretty small still, so you you get to know everyone that's that's around, you know. So there's a lot more coming, and I I think they're, you know, your Craig and your Locky and then Adele, uh, kicked that door open for a lot of us and and a lot of us are running through it now, which is amazing, so. Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Let me ask you this, you mentioned that you you started with boxing, do you still box at all too, or do you are you just primarily Jiu-Jitsu? Speaker 2: Just went back. You know, I literally just went back maybe like, um, maybe a month or so ago. I I had a a bad elbows for a long time. I had like really like I can't straighten my arm at all, so I couldn't really do any kind of extension or anything like that, and I finally got surgery last year, and, um, then this year, like one of my hobbies was, well, one of my goals was just, man, I got to get out of the gym, because this is literally all I do. Uh, I spend time with my daughter and I do Jiu-Jitsu. So I was like, man, I need to meet, I'm getting old. I need to meet people. I need to socialize, but I want to do something with like-minded individuals, you know. So I just went to a boxing gym that was close that, you know, that don't produce fighters. They it's not a boxer fit or anything. They do proper boxing, but they, you know, they don't they're not they they weren't going to push me to take a fight or, um, they weren't doing MMA, because obviously I got a lot of friends in the MMA scene, but I didn't really want to go to a place where I'm going to end up, you know, doing an hour of boxing and then teaching an hour of Jiu-Jitsu or something, you know. I just wanted to go there for me for an hour and just zone out. So I found a a cool gym, and it's really cool, because they're super nice, and I've made some friends there, which my daughter is finds fascinating, because she's like, you finally got friends your age, and I'm like, yeah, this is great. Like, we're going out for lunch, and like, we're going to the beach and stuff. I was like, this is cool. So, uh, it's really nice. It's called Good Vibes Boxing. It's literally 10 minutes from my own gym, and and shout out to them, because they've been amazing, and yeah, I literally just gone back, so, uh, it's been good. It's been fun. Speaker 1: That's awesome. That's so cool. I I'm Jake, I'm going to be 41 in April, and I boxed growing up as a kid, and then I got into Jiu-Jitsu and kind of forgot everything else. I I just became like tunnel vision with Jiu-Jitsu for the last 20 years or so. And funny enough, a few a few years ago, I got back into it myself. I've I have a great coach here here named Igor Nenato. And I've man, I forgot how much I enjoy it, and also, man, it's been hugely it's been tremendously beneficial for my Jiu-Jitsu. My cardio now is like way beyond what it was. Jiu-Jitsu's obviously, yeah, good for cardio, but man, boxing is a different level of cardio, and it it's it's applicable for sure. Speaker 2: Completely agree, man. And like the energy systems and, you know, the the little sprint work that we do, and we're a big believer in my gym and what I do with the athletes on like, uh, first point or King of the Mat style training where you, you know, you got to score quite quickly or, um, and that takes like a a speed burst, you know, and being able to back that up, more like a a rugby style of training where it's like, uh, little quick bursts over like a long period of running kind of thing. And yeah, boxing does that perfectly, man. I still the skipping gets me. Like, I can't skip like three minutes of skipping. I was like, man, I sparred with like 10 black belts yesterday, and I can't skip for three minutes. I don't know what I don't know what this is, so. Speaker 1: I finally had to tell my coach, please just stop bringing the jump rope. I know it's good for me. I just please quit bringing it. I I don't want to do it. I'm terrible at it. My coordination I I don't know like when you're real tired and you it's like all you have to do is jump two inches off the ground to let the rope pass. But you're tired, so you lose the rhythm, and that's, yeah. Speaker 2: And it just gets you, man. And it just blows me up, but that's good. Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Well, man, it's it's super cool that you got back into it. Um, let me ask you this, when do you think that you knew you wanted to be a coach? When when did you know that that teaching was going to be the path that you wanted to take? Speaker 2: I didn't, man. I really didn't. Um, I had my gym and I and I enjoyed teaching classes, but in terms of like coaching athletes or like trying to produce world champions or ADCC champions, whatever, I didn't. I was always the guy, and still am, I want to be the guy in the arena. You know, I want to be the guy that's first. You know, like if there's ever, you know, a challenge, I'm the one that wants to take it. I I like being in that position. I like the pressure. I like, um, the individuality individuality, sorry, of it. Um, but I think, man, when Adele came to the gym and we kind of formed that relationship, uh, I started to do a bit more with her, and then I kind of just figured out that I was like decent at it, I guess, in the in a humble way that I kind of understood more than than I probably should have at that time. Um, and then I'm I pride myself on my work ethic. So like when I started to take coaching seriously as a professional coach, I didn't want to just like watch someone's five-minute rolling clip and be like, oh, man, you should just pass to your left side or, you know, I wanted to break it down so much and everything that they do that I was outworking them as a coach as they are as athletes, and, you know, when you kind of do that and you have an athlete as talented as someone like an Adele or a Dante or a Keith or something, you know, the results end up speaking for themselves. So it's it just kind of happened, man, to be fair. Um, I've always been a big sports nut. I've always read books and watched biogra uh, watched documentaries and read biographies and all those kind of things. So I kind of just fell into it, to be fair. Um, now I kind of see it different. I feel like I've it's probably more of a role I play than as an athlete. Um, even though I still compete and still have major athletic goals, I think I coach at a higher level than I I probably compete at. Um, and I'm okay with that now. I used to it used to petrify me, man. It really did. Um, I used to I didn't want to be that guy. I wanted to be the guy that was competing. But now I like it, because I I'm able to for me, man, Jiu-Jitsu is a vehicle to help people. That's the way I I try and explain what I do. It's like, I'm I'm a religious man. Um, I'm not fussed if anyone else is in or they what their views are, but for me, like this is what God put me here to do to help people. Not to get me good at Jiu-Jitsu, not to, you know, be better than anyone else, but to be able to reach more people, because I'm at a higher level and help more people. And I truly believe that that's what I was born to do, and coaching is just a part of that. You know, coaching is just an extension of that, which for me now, uh, like I said, I love it, man. I love being able to, uh, travel the world with some of these athletes and go behind the scenes with some of these athletes, like, you know, Dante Leon was one of these guys that I watched growing up a lot, man, a lot. And now I've got this relationship with him that is incredible, and, you know, I get to to help, and I've been, you know, in his corner for one championship title fights, which is surreal. It's just absolutely surreal, man. Um, so I'm very blessed and and grateful in that regard. Speaker 1: That's incredible. Well, I I I love hearing that. I love I love hearing that first of all, that it wasn't something you were even initially planning to do, uh, but then you just realized that it's something you're really good at. And by the way, you don't have to be humble about about your coaching results anymore. Once once once your, uh, students start winning ADCC World Championships, I think that's the mark where it's like, okay, I don't have to be so humble anymore. I'm I'm pretty damn good at this. Yeah. So, uh, Speaker 2: Thank you, man. I just, uh, I still surreal, to be fair. It's still surreal sometimes, you know, like we've we talk about this a little bit more in inside our own gym of, you know, there's only one professional title that I haven't had an athlete compete for, which is the UFC belt, which, you know, you got Keith and Adele, I'm sure they're going to get title shots at some point. But I've had an athlete I've either prepped for or cornered compete for every other major professional title in the sport, and, like I said, I'm from the most isolated major city in the world, man. So for me, it's like, I'm not in one of these meccas, so it is surreal sometimes. I pinch myself that I get these opportunities to work with these athletes and and live this dream. So when I when I say that, it is still me just being like, man, I it's it's surreal to me sometimes. Speaker 1: You've earned every bit of it. Um, let me ask you this, Jake, what what do you think give me your thoughts on creating an optimal training environment for athletic success? Like what what are some things that you think are really critical, uh, in any training room where you have serious athletes that are trying to reach the top levels? What are some things you have to have and what are some things you that you can't have? Speaker 2: Yeah, so number one, man, you need to have trust. I think that's massive, you know. So like for me, everything we do in my room and with the athletes works off trust. They need to trust me and I need to trust them. And that goes deep. It doesn't just go in like, you know, I trust that they they're doing the work that I'm telling them. I'm they need I I need to trust that when they tell me how they feel or how deep they tell me what they're feeling, you know, that it's it's the truth, and we can work from that, because it's neither good nor bad, but if it's if it's not, uh, real, I can't actually help you. So trust is number one, man. And then trust in the training room. I need to trust that my guys and girls, I use I say guys as a general term, but I mean girls as well. I've got a lot of girls in the gym too, but that they I I need to trust them that they want the best for me, like I want the best for them. And I think that falls into the category too. You you guys need to be like-minded in your what you're pursuing, you know what I mean? And there has to be there's emphasis on team. I can't have the guy next to me who's in the same weight class be sniping me every day, because he wants what I want. You know, we need to be building each other up, and we need to be helping each other. And, you know, you need to have that consistency that I know my guys are going to turn up to all my pro practices, because it's not just about them, it's about the guy next to you or the girl next to you, and it's about helping them. And you might not get a super fight or a major tournament or anything for six to eight months, but you're still in there every day, because the guy next to you, it's his shot now, and you got to help him. So just having that trust, that consistency of those like-minded individuals, and trusting the process too, man. Like, the process is long, and it's boring. And like sometimes I I coach newer athletes or or people will reach out to me, and, you know, within two or three weeks, they're like, oh, man, is this what you do? Like, you know, I thought it was going to be more. And I'm like, no, this is it, because this is what works. And this is how you get the result. Yeah, this is how the results come, man, and we we build this over time. And then you see with the athletes that I've had, you know, longer, uh, careers with with your Adele, your Dante, your Keith, you know, they've I've been with them for Dante and Keith like a year and a bit now, and Adele five or six. We have that trust. You know what I mean? We have that bond where it's like, okay, we know each other, and we know what we're doing, and, you know, wins or losses, it's it is what it is, but the process is the most important. So I think that's massive, man. I think that's the difference between like a pro, when I say we have a pro team, none of them are professionals. Like, they're young kids. They don't get paid. You know, they don't have major sponsors, but it's a professional mindset. And the professional mindset is, you know, it's a team environment, man. You know, you have to be in there for the team. It's not one person better than the other person. Um, and I think we really have that with not just myself, but the athletes that I coach. And I also try and bring them all together, you know. So like, obviously with Adele, Mo Black, Valerie Wong, uh, Brianna Saint-Marie, um, I always forget, so I I try not to list them, because I they get salty at me when I when I don't name drop them. But like, I'll bring them together, man. So for Adele's CGI camp, you know, I I produced this room of of probably the best female training room that's that's ever been. I think we had like eight ADCC medalists, multiple-time IBJJF World Champions, professional titles, everywhere, trials winners. You know, Anna May Domo was in that room. She went on a run after that. You know, Valerie Wong was in that room, got silver at trials after that. Uh, Mo Black won trials after that. Um, Lauren Sears won Nogi Worlds after that. And I'm not saying that it was because of the camp, but what I'm saying is that when you bring athletes together like that, and they all have the same mission, which at the time was prepare Adele as as well as possible for CGI, then you can build off that foundation, you know. So, uh, I think it's super, super important, man. Speaker 1: That's excellent. Man, it's I mean, I I love how much thought I can see you I can see where the success of your team is coming from. I mean, you put a lot of thought in this. You you you I can see that you you you structure very you have a very deep structure to to what you're doing, and I think that's really outstanding. Speaker 2: It's all the time. And it's like this is, you know, where I feel like I separate myself sometimes. It's like I said, man, this is what I do. So like one person I I study a lot is obviously Tom Brady, and like, man, he would talk about knowing the like the other team's better than they know themselves. Well, dude's getting paid $100 million a year. It's actually not his job to know the teams. It's his coach's job to know the teams and pass it on, but he was doing that, because he wanted to be better, and he wanted to be the best. So I try and carry that mindset across, man. Like, yeah, I could leave some things, but it's not me as a person. I have to cover all bases, man, and make sure that everything's been done so that we're as prepared as possible. Speaker 1: When it comes to designing, um, training sessions for for your athletes, there there's there's there's an interesting balance out there, and this gets debated a lot about the the proper balance of hard training rounds and more technical rounds. And sometimes even technical days and and and harder days. Sometimes they're split up into days rather than just, uh, rounds. What are your thoughts on that? What what do you think has been the most successful and what and why do you think that, uh, that you do it the way you do? Speaker 2: Yeah, I I think again, man, it falls back to that trust process. And it's going to be hard for people to understand, but like, you can go hard every day if you trust the training partner you're with, because you know you're not they're not going to hurt you, and you know that, uh, they're going to protect you. So we have a rule in the gym, man. Like, it's not, um, like look after yourself at all times. It's actually look after your training partner. Because if I'm focused on you and making sure you're safe, and you're doing the same for me, we're both going to be safe. If I'm looking after me, I don't know if you're looking after you. You know what I mean? So there could be a miscommunication there. So I think that that that is important, man. I think it also comes down to the individual. So like if you take, um, I I'll reference him a lot in this in this podcast only because they're the more well-known names and it's easier for people to relate to. But if you look at Adele and Dante, you know, I can't they can't be on the same schedule. Dante is is a maniac, man. That dude literally after the Tyra Tulo match, we we went to Sizzler, we had some cheese toast, and then we were lifting weights. Like, that's how he is, man. That's just him as a person. You know, and Adele doesn't do that, but that doesn't mean that's wrong. You know what I mean? But she might have a big super fight, and then, you know, she's going to go spend some time with her fiance for a week, and then she she needs some downtime, and then, okay, uh, when she's back, she'll let me know, and when she's in, she's in. So like, they're two completely different athletes. So I can't tell her to do the schedule that Dante does, because it's it wouldn't work for her, and vice versa. So I think that really comes down to the individual. For me, man, I like to train twice a day. I train twice a day every day. I do my hard session in the morning with the pro team. That's anywhere between an hour to two hours of actual sparring, not rest periods and coaching and technique, like actual sparring. And then at night, I'll train with my, uh, my gym, you know, the the hobbyist per se, in the night class, and I'll get five or six five-minute rounds out, but I'll be laughing and joking and bantering with people, and if someone asks me a question during the rounds, I'll answer it, or, um, I'll pick partners I don't usually roll with or whatever, you know. Whereas in the pro session in the morning, don't talk to me while we're rolling. Like, don't ask me questions. Like, I'm here to train. I'm this is my training time too. I'm a professional. I'm going to outwork you. Um, and yes, I am the coach, and I'm the leader. I get it. But I'm also an athlete. Like, so I I want to train. Um, so I like to split it up that way, man. And then, um, I do that, you know, four days a week, and then on a Tuesday and a Thursday, I'll double up with weights and like boxing, and then Saturday is Jiu-Jitsu, a lighter session and weights as well. So I do two a day, six days a week, but that's just me. You know what I mean? It's I don't think there's one size fits all in terms of training, volume, or, uh, approach either. Because I'm sure like a follow-up question will be about the CLA and specific training compared to live rounds, et cetera. Man, I think you really just got to go and find what works for you, and whatever you can retain and relate to, that's the best practice for you. Speaker 1: I always really enjoy picking the brains of coaches to to because everyone has kind of a different formula. There there there are a lot of consistent things across across the board when you talk to people, because there are things that just work generally across the board, but how they're applied is always interesting to see with with different coaches and how they how they map it out. Let me ask you this, obviously something that's really important for athletes is recovery time. You talked about how you have monsters like Dante, who, you know, you guys are having a match with Kade, and then going to Sizzler, and he's lifting weights, whereas Adele might take a week off. Uh, truth be told, I'm more like an Adele. I I like to take my time. I'm not going to lie. I'm I'm not a maniac like, uh, like Dante. But, uh, but but obviously having recovery between training sessions and between competitions is really important. How how do you how do you how do you typically address that with an athlete, and how do you take someone like a Dante who's like a maniacal trainer versus, uh, someone who, uh, likes to take a little time off in between, uh, big events and things like that? Is it different how you approach recovery? Speaker 2: Yeah, so for me, man, I actually don't, like, I try and, uh, like, I don't control those things for those guys, because they're professionals. So what I do is, and what I do with, you know, them, and everybody's different, man. I have more of a role with like an Adele, whereas, you know, Dante's been a professional for so long, like the role I play with with him, you know, and he's got Heath, you know. And this is it always weirds me out when I like, I don't like to say coach, because like, I'm not Dante's coach. I don't coach him. Like, I help in areas of parts of his game and whatever. But Adele is a little bit different, because because she was with me for so long. But I try not to control those things. I just give them my honest opinion on what they should do and why, and usually that'll come from research or, you know, data that we've collected over time, and then they make their own decisions, because at the end of the day, it's their career, man. And even though I might form friendships with these guys, uh, it's their career. It's not mine. So like, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with them being like, no, I don't want to do what you said. I want to do this. Now, when it comes to like game plans and strategies, I haven't had kickback from any of the athletes. They might ask why, but they it's never been like, no, I'm not I'm not doing that. But in terms of like, I would never tell them you need to do this or you need to do that, you know. I just more advise like, hey, this is what we should do. And like I said, man, when it it works, it works. So it's it's pretty easy to to follow. Um, in terms of being professional, like, I think that's the whole part of the process, though. I I do it probably too much with the guys in my own gym. I probably baby them too much. I probably do too much for them compared to like an Adele, where like, if she comes to me with a problem, I'll be like, okay, how have you tried to solve it first? And she'll be like, oh, you know, uh, this or this. I'm like, perfect, that's great. Or I haven't actually, I just want to get your advice. And then I'll give the advice. Whereas the guys in the gym, I try and do too much for them. And I think you really just got to figure it out, man, because trial and error and failing and making mistakes is one of the best teachers. You know what I mean? Like, it's one of and it it sucks. I know it sucks. And it losing sucks, and not being your best sucks, and underperforming sucks. I understand this. I understand this as an athlete. I understand this as a coach. But it's also, you know, sometimes it's our best teacher, and it's sometimes it's our best lesson. So like if I feel like an athlete isn't performing well, because, you know, they're they're video gaming at night every night, and I know they are, I'll let them do it, man. And then when two weeks later, and they're like, man, I feel like crap. I'm like, yes, because of this. So how about we cut this out, and then, you know, but then they've collected that data themselves. It's not them coming to me on day one and being like, man, I played Fortnite to 2:00 a.m. last night, and me being like, oh, you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't do this. Like, no, that's okay. But in two weeks, when I'm beating on your ass, then you're going to be like, I shouldn't have played Fortnite last night. I've got I know I've got a guy coming to the gym tomorrow, man, who's he's world-class. His name's Will Diaz. He's a Perth local. And I love eating lollies, man. I love eating chocolate. I haven't eaten any this week, because I want to make sure I've got rounds with him tomorrow that are good. You know what I mean? Because I don't want to get a stitch. I don't want to get tired, because he's going to beat me up. So I'm like, I need to lock in, you know. So, um, it's more of that, man. It's more of more of like an advising role than it is actually like I tell them what to do. Um, it's probably a better way to explain it. Speaker 1: That's great. I feel like the video the video game thing is a direct attack to Adele. I feel I feel I feel like you're talking right to her. Speaker 2: No, it's a it's a partner Nev, and and and Nev will will listen to this, and and Nev's, um, Nev's Eastern European, so she's fiery, and, uh, we we have some fiery, uh, conversations sometimes. I love her, but we have some fiery conversations. She's a Fortnite player. Yeah. So she'll she'll drag in it she'll drag Adele into it. Yeah, then they'll get stuck into a video. I'm like, you've been playing games, haven't you? And they're like, yeah. Speaker 1: When when Adele was on the show, we went deep on video games. We we were talking Pokemon we it went from Jiu-Jitsu to like Pokemon to like Fortnite to yeah. Uh, Speaker 2: Man, sometimes people forget how young she is. You know, they forget she's, you know, just turned 26. She's 25, 26. Like, they forget how young, uh, especially, you know, with with how she is a leader in the women's community specifically. Sometimes people forget how young she is, man, because she doesn't carry herself that way. Um, which is a is a blessing and a curse in some regards, but, you know, obviously proud of her, but yeah, her with video games or or, you know, the food she eats and stuff, it's it's sometimes very it's very she gets very she gets along very well with my daughter. I'll say that. The both of them are are very they get along very well. Speaker 1: Well, you know, speaking speaking of being a dad, uh, something something you said there really resonated with me just as a parent, and that is that you you you talked about the importance of letting someone fail in order to learn. And that's that's something that I apply pretty heavily to my own kids. Like, it's something that like, you know, I I don't let them I don't let them get hurt. Uh, like if I see they're going to touch something that's going to burn them, obviously I'm not going to be like, oh, you're going to learn today. No, I don't do all that. It's it's not not that extreme. But, you know, if my if my kids are having a trouble putting together putting something together or picking or or, you know, uh, organizing something properly or whatever, I usually will sit back until until I see that they truly can't move forward, and then I jump in. I've never heard someone talk about that in coaching in Jiu-Jitsu, and that's really interesting, because it it is such an effective way for someone to learn, uh, yet as Jiu-Jitsu coaches, we often see people, um, really hyper adjusting and correcting things, so that way you don't build bad habits. But I appreciate what you just said. I it's it's an interesting it's an interesting perspective, because some yeah, you do have to let people fail sometimes to learn to learn. You don't always have to correct everything they do right away. Speaker 2: Yeah, I I I don't do a lot of it when I teach too, man. I I kind of let people and even when I I teach seminars and stuff, sometimes I'll, um, someone will ask a question. I'll be like, you know, I'm really glad you asked that question, because I actually left that detail out on purpose. And people will be like, what? Why why why would you do that? Like, why are you trying to hide details or are you being lazy with your teaching? I'm like, no, because in my opinion, this is what you should be learning and retaining. Everything else is a bonus. So the fact you asked that question is actually, you know, a credit to you understanding what's going on. But if you only left this seminar and you only picked up these two things that I spoke about, that's what I wanted you to pick up. So everything else is a bonus. So I do that a lot with my guys too, and, you know, they're more than welcome to come and ask questions and stuff, but I most of the time they'll know, and my daughter gets it as well. If she was here, she'd say it. I'll be like, have you figured it out? And they'll be like, no, because they know they haven't even tried. And then they'll go and try, and they'll try, and then they'll be like, look, man, I'm just not getting it. Or is this right? And then I'm like, okay, yeah, you're on the right path, but let's look at this. Or, you know, whatever it is. And like I I definitely don't think I'm one of those coaches that knows everything about Jiu-Jitsu. I definitely study a lot, um, but even I do, like I said, man, I still study to this day. I was studying before we got on this call. So like, I'm always studying, but I I prefer that method, man, because I also a big believer that if you're able to figure something out yourself, the likelihood of you retaining it is actually quite high. If I tell you something, especially if like, because if I tell you something, it can also depend on your mood. If you're in a bad mood, you fought with your your wife or, you know, you had a bad day at your job or whatever it is, and I'm in your face going, man, you just never get the underhook. Why are you so stupid? Why are you going to get the underhook? You're probably going to just be like, well, fuck you. You're an asshole. I don't want to listen to you. You know what I mean? But if you're like, man, I I'm just having a really bad day, and I just can't pass the guard, and I've been trying this, this, and this, you know, and I'm like, okay, well, maybe think about doing this. And then you go into the position, oh, okay. Now I get it, because you put that into play. I didn't put it into play. I just gave you like a window to look into, and you're like, okay, I picked it up. I I like that. I think it's, you know, but I also know that if you do push me for an answer, then I have it, and I'll give it to you. And if I don't have it, I'll tell you I don't have it, and I'll find out. So like, sometimes it can be seen as lazy. He just doesn't want to answer the question. It's like, well, no, this is how I believe you learn the best. That's why you're asking me for the the answer, you know. If you want to learn a different way, there's a plenty of good coaches out there, man. Probably learn from them, you know. Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah. You know, speaking of, uh, studying and research, I want to circle back to something you mentioned earlier, uh, that's interesting. You talked about how you like to study Tom Brady, and how you you appreciated that Tom Brady studied the game and his opponents so much that he knew them better than themselves. That's obviously something very important as a coach. It's it's good for athletes to do it too, obviously, but for a coach especially, it's good to know, especially in super fight scenarios or in a big stage where there's like a, you know, an eight-man bracket or whatever, and, uh, it's it's it's it's it's not a, you know, a 100-person bracket where you where it would be very difficult to study every single person. Uh, talk to me about neutralizing the A-games of opponents of your students. Like, if you know that there's someone that has a specialization, and you know that for sure that's what they're going to be bringing to the match, how heavy do you lean into the idea of neutralizing the A-game rather than just focusing on your own student's game? Speaker 2: Um, not too heavily, to be fair, man, because I don't really believe in like, uh, a set of techniques and trying to overcome those techniques. I I more truly believe in like, um, figuring out, you know, the the movement patterns and the tendencies of these athletes and putting those into play into my athletes where they can capitalize. So it's not so much we're going to stop, you know, someone from inverting from half butterfly to the saddle. It's like, okay, what movement pattern do we have or what tendencies or what habits do they create prior to that sequence that we can capitalize on and, uh, use. So I'll give a an example, and, um, like I said, uh, Anna was at our camp, and she was absolutely fantastic all year. We we versed her in the the World's final of, uh, IBJJF Nogi Worlds just gone. Hugely anticipated match. Everybody wanted to see it. Um, she had a couple of habits that I picked up on that I knew, and we actually took something from one of Adele's past opponents, Jasmine Hoja, and used the kick to the chest when, uh, Anna puts her hands down to to grab the lead leg, which then causes the off balance, which then causes the secondary leg to, uh, come into the air a little bit higher than she wants, and us to attach to it and get the finish. So that wasn't a technique thing. That wasn't like, oh, I want to avoid Anna's leg locks. It's like, okay, what habit does she have that we can capitalize on? You know, and we do a lot of that, man. So I do a lot of study on all the opponents, and like I I've I've mentioned a few times on on different platforms and that, like, I'm a bit obsessive when it comes to that, man. Like, I'll watch your training footage. I'll watch your coach. I'll see how your coach coaches. I'll watch your training partners. I'll watch your training partners' last matches. I'll watch how you train with those training partners and see if you guys are doing anything different to what they would actually do in their match. So what are they changing that they what looks are they changing to give to you? You know, I'll watch your stories. I'll listen to your interviews. I'll like, I go pretty deep, man. Only for like, only for the best. You know, so right now, when I said I was studying, I'm finishing the playbook for Keith versus Gabe Souza this weekend. You know, so like, I'm I'm just the finishing touches. Like, there's nothing new I'm going to add, but I'm just making sure everything's every T is, uh, crossed and I is dotted, and and Keith knows what's going on. So, um, like I said, man, I'll watch everything from Gabe from the past, you know, however, however long I need. There's not actually a time period, but like what I feel I need. And it's not anything to do with Gabe. It's like, how can I pass this on to Keith that he's able to retain it and then, uh, perform on the night in key areas, you know. So, um, it's a lot, but it's it's something that I I believe in. I don't think everybody has to do it, you know. I tell guys all the time, like, there's some athletes that won't do any of that, and they'll be absolutely incredible world champions. They're usually outliers, and you don't usually want to follow the outliers, because they've got something that other people don't, you know. Um, but it's helped my athletes, you know, and I think that, you know, even if we go to the losses that we've had, we've never really had one of my, uh, athletes be blown out by someone, and we've never really had a game plan fail, if that makes sense. We might not have won the match, but the the strategy that we had coming in was usually pretty solid where the athlete would usually be like, like, I lost, but I felt really good, you know, or I I felt like we had the right plan, or like, you know, sometimes it just doesn't go your way. Like, sometimes it's just one of those days you just it's just not your day, man. And, uh, it just happens. But it's usually it's usually pretty spot on. Speaker 1: That's Jake, I want to zoom in on this, because this is actually a very interesting topic. I really like what you're saying about identifying habits rather than identifying particular techniques or positions. So let me ask you this, how does someone who doesn't have a coach like you above them, who's who's really doing all this work to to to help them see better, how can someone be more self-aware of their own habits? What what what what what advice would you give to someone that, you know, basically the best they can do is take notes and keep a journal and kind of review what's happening? Speaker 2: Bro, that that's it. That is the best. You know, so that is the best. So having having goals, and this is something I talk about a lot, and I've got a training log that I created for myself. There's a there's a vast amount of resources out there, but I've got one that I use. I'm more than happy to email it to anyone that reaches out. I don't hide any of this stuff. Um, and all my everybody uses it. You know, what we do before, how long we're able to stick to it, what we need to improve after, um, how we feel, not only, you know, physically, but mentally, visualization-wise, game plan-wise. You know, it gives us all these readings, and we collect this data over a period of time. Start with that. Start with note reviews and video reviews. Like, I've got a few athletes that, you know, they struggle to get me video, because their gyms don't allow it. And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, I don't get it. They're like, oh, they don't let us film. And I'm like, why? And then they just, oh, it's just they don't like it. And I'm like, man, how are you going to get better? Like, you you're not watching what you're doing. You know, like if we I take everything from the major sports, right? Every time that the Golden State Warriors or the the, uh, the Patriots or whoever have a practice or a game, people review that so that they can correct it and make it better. And then you go, yeah, but they're the best athletes in the world. But isn't that what you told me you wanted to be? I don't care I don't care if you want to be ADCC World Champion. I know I'm not going to be ADCC World Champion, but I want to be the best I could be. So why are you not doing that when research shows that this works? Oh, you can't afford it? Do it yourself, man. I literally went to like a an the the office works, which is would be like a I don't know what it'd be for you guys, but it's like a, uh, a stationery store. It cost me $16 to put together this booklet for my training log for 365 days. So like, I don't need to be rich to do that. And I don't need to be rich to buy a pen. Um, all of us, well, most of us have phones these days. You don't need expensive camera, man. Like, put the phone next to the the training mat and film it. Or someone's going to sit out a round, hey, man, can you film this round? And then I always tell people, if you go and train with people, and they don't want you to film their rounds, like film the rounds, stop training with those people, because they don't want you to get better. They're more worried about looking bad than you improving. So we have all our training sessions filmed. We have, uh, we have a great one of the parents, her, um, we've got a young kid in our in our gym, Ellie, her mom, Lauren, she will film she sends like 100 videos in a WhatsApp group a day. Guys, my guys have full access to that. Like, if they highlight me, they submit me, they pass my guard, which they've never done, so that's not in there, but if they do any of that other stuff, post it. Tag it, because if it helps you improve, and it's going to help the gym improve. And if it comes from a place of trust, which I already spoke about, I trust when you put that takedown online, you're doing it for the right reasons. You're doing it to gain attention for the gym. You're doing it to gain attention for yourself, for sponsors, for super fight opportunities, not to try and show that you're better than me. We don't have that, man. And we pick on each other a lot. We banter a lot. But none of my guys are jealous of the other guys getting opportunities or anything like that. If you like I said, it it kind of goes back to what we're talking about. If you have that trust. So if I was like rolling with someone, and they don't want me to film, because they don't like, if you're not comfortable, you're supposed to be at work, or you just don't like, you're just socially not a camera person, I completely get it. But if your main reason is because you don't want to get tapped on camera, I just literally wouldn't train with you. When you come to ask me to roll, I'll be like, no, I'm good, bro. I'm going to roll with him. But you've done five rounds with him. I'm like, yeah, because I want to get better, and I know he's going to help me get better. Okay? It's fine. It doesn't bother me. Speaker 1: Yeah. That's great. No, I love that. I love that. And obviously having having video and footage to review, I mean, like you said, in all major sports, they're taking real seriously. They take it seriously. They take video. They take review. They take, uh, you know, how else like you can't possibly have someone transcribing in a journal every single thing that happened. I mean, you can do your best, and journals help a lot. Um, but yeah, having that video to review is obviously critical. It's it's cool that you that you that you subscribe so strongly to, um, to journals and stuff, because I I think that's the single biggest shift in my personal journey in Jiu-Jitsu that I had. It was when I was a purple belt. It actually happened on the podcast. A lot of people don't realize it, but I was I was interviewing Rafael Lovato Jr., and, uh, he was talking he was talking about how, uh, there was something he said that really just burned into my memory. He says, I don't understand how anyone could go into training and just go through the motions and not write down anything that happened and expect to keep it in your hard drive. He says, unless you have absolutely nothing else going on in your life. Yeah, if you don't have anything going on, then maybe you can remember the details. But I started taking a journal, and it's like, Jake, I was like, dude, why was I not doing this as a white belt? I could I would have had so much more data and so much more notes to learn from, and so many things that just went are lost into the ether now. Uh, but ever since then, it it's really given me sort of a a guiding light of where to go and which which directions I should be in and what I should be working on. So, uh, Speaker 2: It's it's part of our like, because obviously with working with the international athletes, I can't I'm not in the room with them. So they send me notes and video. It's it's easy for them, because I'm not there. So they know if they don't do it, I don't see it. Therefore, we we don't get the work. But it's actually compulsory for the professionals in my gym to do it. And they actually get in trouble if they don't. Now, they're they're good at it. They've they've created the habit. They've they're very good at it, and they see the benefits, so they do it. But we made it, uh, compulsory. So we have like a strike policy. If you get X amount, you can't train for a certain amount of time, et cetera, right? So it's one of those things that if I ask you, hey, Ryan, where's your notes from today? Or what's your goals for the session? And you go, oh, man, I don't have any, strike. And you've and you actually have a a buddy. So we call them accountability buddies. He gets a strike too. Yeah, because he should have been on your ass to get you to do your notes. So like, we we do that a lot, man. And again, like I said, now, the other day, I think I had 14 in the room for pro. I said, okay, who's got goals before practice? Every hand went up. And these are kids 17, 18, 19 years old. You know, so like, they understand, man. They they're learning that this is what it takes to be professionals, you know. And same thing, when Adele does her sessions, when we're in camp, when she's not in camp, like we kind of just let her do her thing, because she still has to have fun. Like, she still has to enjoy what she's doing. So if she wants to go and train and just have some rounds, just go and have some rounds, you know. But when we're in camp, as soon as she finishes training, I'll get a huge breakdown. This is what we did. This is what I did. This is how I felt. Blah, blah, blah. And then I'll get the training footage. And that goes for all of my athletes. And usually because of the time zones too, like I'll wake up tomorrow morning at 6:00 a.m., and I'll have like eight different messages from athletes being like, this is what I did last night. Blah, blah, blah. And then I watch the footage and go back through it, and it's just a daily process, man. I love it. I actually enjoy it. Speaker 1: It's it's made my training a lot more fun. I mean, when I when I when I it's kind of almost made it made it like a like a mini game out of it. Like if I know that I'm working on say like my knee slice passing or something, and my goal, and I have an objective for the day, it's like, okay, today I'm going to do this particular variation of the knee slice, and if I get this reaction, I'm going to try to hit this thing I've been studying. And it it gives me like a game. Like, there's a purpose. It's not just going through the motions and stuff. And, uh, yeah, it it it really has like, uh, allowed me to design and it's let me get really nerdy about it too. Like, like a lot of times my my my notes throughout the month will will influence what the what the goal is going to be going in for the next month. And I now break my training, even though I'm not a professional or anything. I I break my training down like a like a business. Like, I break it into quarters of the year. So quarter one, this year, for example, I'm trying to improve my back control. Uh, quarter two, I'm probably going to transition that into I haven't quite planned out quarter two yet, but it's going to be coming. And I'll have a three-month chunks of what exactly it is I'm working on over over overarching things I'm looking at. So it, uh, Speaker 2: That's perfect, man. That's perfect. Speaker 1: It's made it it's made it more fun. Yeah. Yeah. That's perfect, man. That's perfect. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's spot on, man. And I think a lot of people would benefit from doing that, yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah. Jake, let me ask you this, man. Here's an interesting question for you. As someone that works a lot with, um, serious competitors and just kind of day-to-day practitioners, uh, alike, what are your thoughts on, let me think the best way to ask this question. There's a lot of people out there training Jiu-Jitsu that are just kind of day-to-day practitioners, what we call hobbyists. Uh, and and and they I think automatically assume, I'm never going to be able to get as technical as a as a professional competitor. Do you agree with that? Do do you think that there are people in in your gyms that are technically reach the same levels as some of your star athletes or could if they if they just really committed to it? Speaker 2: 100%, man. 100%. I actually sometimes dread doing my night class, because some of the guys that come in there after their their day shift, they're just they're just good, man. I think that the difference, the main difference, man, is the want to be competitive. I think that's the main difference, you know, to to to actually see it as a competition and not just as something you're doing for fun or enjoying. You know what I mean? When you flip that switch and you don't want to lose a point, you don't want to get your guard passed, you don't want to get taken down. I think that changes a lot of things. But in terms of the skill, man, I and I think everybody that's ever trained Jiu-Jitsu will have like the the good guys, the good competitors in their gym. And then you'll still have these, you know, it doesn't even matter what belt they are, but they'll still put along the competitors no matter what. And it's like, man, when's the last time that guy competed? It's like, he never competed. Or he's competed 10 years ago. Or, you know what I mean? Like, I just I think, you know, you don't have to be I think you should compete just to see if you like it, but I don't think you need to be a competitor to be really highly skilled at Jiu-Jitsu, you know, even whether that's coaching or, uh, applying it in actual rolls or anything like that. I I don't really think you need that. Um, yeah, I I I definitely think so, man. I I get a lot of hobbyists and like hobbyists, I don't mean in a derogatory way. I just, you know, they're not they're not taking it as as a professional career, but ask if I coach hobbyists. I'm like, yeah, all the time. Like, I love it. You know, I just love people that love Jiu-Jitsu. Like, if that's what you want if you want to get better at Jiu-Jitsu, I can help you. That's kind of what I tell people, you know. It just so happens that you see me market the athletes more, because that's it's obviously a marketing thing, you know, you get more business and et cetera. Like, that's it's pretty obvious. But that doesn't mean I care more about them. I did have this issue in the gym once where people thought that, that I cared more about the competitors than the the hobbyist. And I was like, no, it's not that. I don't care about the success. I don't care about the medals or that. I care about how much you care about Jiu-Jitsu. Usually, the professional cares more, because they've gone all in. So I want to give more time to that person, because that's how much time I give to the sport. I go all in. I can't understand, and I'm getting better at it now. I'm definitely better at it now, but definitely not when I was younger. I didn't didn't understand how people didn't want to be the best. I didn't understand how you just wanted to come in and roll five rounds and go home. Like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean you don't want to get here early and drill? What do you mean you don't want to take notes? What do you mean you're not doing every competition? Like, I don't get it. Now I understand it more. But, uh, so I would give more time to the competitors or the the athletes in that. And it was only because they seemed to care more. Now I'm I'm a lot better at, uh, designating my time and things like that. But, um, yeah, I I definitely think so, man. But it also just depends on like what you're trying to do. Are you trying to be, uh, an exceptional grappler or are you trying to win the majority of competitions? You know, and I think there's there's no wrong answer. There's it's just what you're trying to do. You know, like, perfect example, Michael Pixley. Like, would I ever tell Michael Pixley to go and pull guard? Like, what would be the point of that? Like, you want to win tournaments. So why why would he not just wrestle all the time? You know what I mean? Like, or does Michael Pixley want to be the best grappler on the planet ever, not just as an athlete, but as a coach, as a student of the game? So then he would have to learn that stuff, because you need to have the knowledge there. So it really just depends on what your goals are and what you're trying to achieve, I think. Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, really well said. Well, guys, listen, if you're if you're out there and you're wanting to improve your leg attacks, uh, specifically straight ankle locks and straight foot locks, uh, check out Jake's new instructional. It just dropped. It's actually his first one he has on the platform, so, uh, uh, Jake, congratulations on that. It's called it's called In Essence the Straight Foot Lock, and it's available right now at BJJFanatics.com. I highly recommend it. It's very, very, very well put together instructional from a very, uh, reputable source. Speaker 2: Thank you. Speaker 1: Check it out. Um, man, Jake, in closing, what are some of your major goals for 2026? What are some things you hope to accomplish by the time the year is over? Speaker 2: Yeah, man. Like, individually, I I want to hit the three of the four Nogi majors this year. Um, I'm still not done competing. So for me, like, I'm I'm, uh, still competing Master One, um, at the moment. So, uh, I want to do those, and I've got big ambitions to win those. Obviously, with the athletes, it's a ADCC year. Um, you know, Adele has the opportunity to do something special with winning her weight class and the super fight. Um, you know, which could take her to to four ADCC titles, which is incredible, and and should probably qualify her for the Hall of Fame. So that's definitely something we're thinking about. Um, and then same thing, man, all the other athletes have massive goals. A lot of them want to win trials or win ADCC or hope CGI comes back around and and wanting to do that or, uh, just taking massive super fights. And then just with my guys too, then just continue to show them the path and give them the opportunities that, um, I've been able to afford now that I'm I'm doing what I'm doing. You know, like, show them that they can do this too, but also like use me as leverage to to get some opportunities and to make a name for themselves. And then obviously, man, like the the number one and and you know this is just to be the best dad that I can be, man. Like, I I'm a a single dad that that just loves spending time with his daughter, man, and there's nothing better in this world. And if I had to choose today, it wouldn't even be a choice. You know, I I wouldn't even be here. I'd be spending time with her and and doing things with her, man. So just that is always number one priority is is providing for her and and being there for her, so. Speaker 1: Well, folks, unfortunately, we're fresh out of time. Jake, it's really been a pleasure having you on the show, my friend. Thank you for taking the time to be here. You gave tremendous insight, uh, for everything from coaching to mindset, and it's truly appreciated. Also, again, it means a lot that you've been a long-time listener of the show. Uh, I really am flattered by that, and you're welcome on anytime you'd like to come back in the future. Speaker 2: Honestly, man, I really do appreciate you reaching out and and getting me on. Like I said, I I do listen to the podcast, so it has been surreal when you reached out to say that you you wanted me to be on, and, uh, anyone that that has made it this far to listen, I I appreciate you listening as well. And if you have any questions or anything, you're more than welcome to to reach out and send me a message, and I'll I'll do my best to to help where I can. And if you ever make it to isolated Perth, you guys are more than welcome to drop in and and train. Speaker 1: Excellent. Excellent. Yeah, Jake, again, it really is appreciated. And, uh, for for anyone out there that wants to keep up with Jake, it's very easy to do so. He's active on Facebook. You can find him there. His Instagram is Jake O'D_EssenceBJJ. Uh, he's got a great Patreon as well. Just type type in Jake O'Driscoll, and you'll find him. Make sure you, uh, subscribe there. Uh, and then also, guys, as Jake said, if you guys are ever traveling through Perth, Australia, this is one of the best academies, uh, in the country that you can drop into. EssenceBJJ.com.au, uh, to get, uh, information about their schedule and location. And then, guys, if you can't make it to Australia and train with Jake directly, you can learn from him anywhere in the world here at BJJFanatics.com. He just dropped his first instructional with us, called In Essence the Straight Foot Lock, uh, which we talked about in depth in today's episode. So, if you want more of that knowledge, head over to BJJFanatics.com and get a hold of it. And that's going to do it for this episode, everybody. I really appreciate you tuning in. Please stay tuned for the next episode of the BJJ Fanatics Podcast.