Ep. 374: How to Study BJJ, feat. Jake O'Driscoll

Speaker 1: Hey everybody, before we get started this week, I just want to let you know we released a new mindset course featuring Rob Bernaki from Island Top Team and BJJ Concepts. It's called Mindset for Betas. It's an amazing resource that breaks down a new way to build a resilient jiu-jitsu mindset. It's part of BJJ Mental Models Premium. I will spare you the full sales pitch because you can try it for free. Just go to BJJmentalmodels.com/beta. I will give you a free month, you can check out the course and if you decide that it's not worth your money, you can cancel, you won't have to pay a cent. I've already been told by subscribers that this is the most valuable piece of jiu-jitsu content they've ever received, so I hope you like it too. Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to BJJ Mental Models, episode 374. I'm Steve Kwan. BJJ Mental Models is your guide to a conceptual and intelligent jiu-jitsu approach. I'm back again with a returning champ. I've got Jake O'Driscoll on the line from Perth, Australia, Essence BJJ. Jake, how are you doing? Speaker 2: Yeah, really good, man. I really appreciate you having me back. You know, I love being on this podcast and I've actually really got a lot of good feedback from from being on the podcast, which is really cool to see, especially when I was at Nogi Worlds, just got a lot of people come up and said they listened and, you know, that was a bit surreal for me. So, yeah, thank you for having me back on. Speaker 1: Most welcome. Well, I thought we did some great collaboration in the past. I mean, we'd had a series of conversations about professionalism in jiu-jitsu, what separates a hobbyist from a pro, and what you have to do in your training if you want to be a professional. Now, we're going to talk about a topic that's somewhat related here, but I think this one is just as applicable to hobbyists and casual grapplers as it is to pros. Basically, the process of how to study for jiu-jitsu. My understanding is you've got a workshop coming up where you're going to be going over this, and you also have a lot of material on this either now or coming soon to your Patreon. Now, because this is such a hot topic that comes up a lot, I thought it would be good to maybe get your opinion on this, but before we dig in, I'm just mindful of maybe new listeners or people who missed the original chats. Do you want to do a quick intro just to give everyone an idea of who we're talking to? Speaker 2: Yeah, cool. So, yeah, obviously Jake is my name. I'm a black belt out of Perth, Western Australia, so quite quite a far, far away. Still a competitive athlete, Masters divisions now, so I still compete as much as I can around the world, but probably more known for helping or coaching, depending on on what you see. Some elite athletes like uh, Adele Fornarino, Dante Leon, Keith Koorian, Mo Black, Brianna St. Marie, the list goes on. There's quite a few of them. I always forget and they get a little bit salty with me, so I try not to list too many. Um, but that's probably where I'm my work is most well known and probably more where I'm gravitating towards as I get a little bit older. So just dwelling into that, you know, professional coaching role, where to be fair, 90% of it is also online. I'm not really in the training room with a lot of these athletes most of the time because I live so far away. So there's also that aspect too, you know, not being their direct coach. That's why I don't really like to say I'm I'm the coach, you know, because I'm not really in the in the training room with them every day. I'm just more of like a guiding light, I guess, is a good way to say. Speaker 1: Well, this is a an interesting development in the sport of jiu-jitsu over the last maybe five years, maybe even 10 years. This idea of working with and learning with coaches remotely, and also the idea of having a crew of coaches. I kind of wonder if the the days of having a jiu-jitsu coach are coming to an end because it really seems like a lot of the best these days are cross-pollinating, cross-training, learning a lot. They've got kind of a crew of people and they'll learn from whoever they can. So, this dovetails nicely into the topic we wanted to get into today, sort of how to study in jiu-jitsu. The the cool thing about the sport today is there is so much content out there that you have access to really the the best minds in the sport. There is no shortage of good information. The problem now I think is more how do you pick the information to actually focus on studying? A lot of our courses we give away for free for those who can't afford or don't make it onto BJJ Mental Models Premium. So, for most people, the problem is not getting that information. It's how do I absorb it? How do I filter out the signal from the noise and find the stuff I really need to know? This is an under-discussed area in the sport, and of course, working in Perth, the cool thing about your work is because again, so much of it is remote, you've got to make sure that your athletes have the ability to learn from you even when they're not directly in the room. Let's maybe unpack all of this. Tell me a bit about your strategy at a high level for how you encourage your athletes to study when it comes to jiu-jitsu. What are they studying and how do they go about doing it? Speaker 2: Yeah, perfect, man. So this is um, you know, this could definitely lead into a lot. So, number one is is I don't have a one-shop method for everybody. So, what I mean by that is like, there's some things that I do want, so notes after sessions, they have their plans before they train, and then also video review. This is super important, especially because I'm not in the room and I can't see it firsthand. Even when I am in the room, you know, I still expect that. But how they do that is up to them. Okay, so what I mean by that is some people take notes on their phone, some people have a a journal that they write down, some people might voice record their notes, some people might video and talk over their rounds, so they tell me what they're thinking at the at the time. And then that goes the same for the video reviews. Some people might have, you know, a phone, some people might take security camera footage, some of the athletes might have, you know, professional social media influencers type following them around, etc. Some of them might even just post on Instagram and I got to check out that stuff. So, there's no one-stop shop on what you should do. I just a big believer that it should be done. And the only reason, not the only reason, but the main reason I believe in this is because if you've listened to any of our podcasts previously or heard me talk about this stuff before, I take a lot of what I do with the the athletes and my guys as well from other professional sports. So, I don't have one sport that I watch, but it's pretty well known I do like the NBA and the NFL, you know, boxing, these high-level sports. And, you know, every one of these athletes or the majority of these athletes, they have to do this all the time, or they have someone, you know, if they get big enough, they have someone do it for them in terms of like, they pay someone to do their reviews or they pay someone to do the footage or take the notes or whatever. But it always gets done. So, why is it that those high-level sports where the athletes are, you know, the best in the world at what they do, doing this and us as jiu-jitsu athletes are just letting it uh, slide by. Now, even in all those different disciplines in terms of uh, American football, basketball, etc., there's still that outpouring of information. We just don't think that those high-level athletes use it. So, we just think Steph Curry doesn't, you know, go on YouTube to watch shooting drills or, you know, go on have DVDs or books that he reads about other basketball players, blah, blah, blah. But the thing is, he probably does have someone that does that, you know, or does have someone that keeps up with the latest research on what he should be doing and why and, you know, how we can incorporate this, whether it is his shooting form, whether it is his strength and conditioning, whether it is his nutrition. Doesn't matter what it is. It's the same thing just transferred into a different area. So, it's really important that we make sure that, you know, we're doing this. And it's a real difficult aspect for most of the athletes. When I start working with an athlete, it's very easy for me to program what you should do on the training mat. You know, that's the easy part. Hey, I need you doing this, this and this, and they'll do it. But when it comes down to studying and note reviews and etc., that's the hard part. I don't force anyone to study more than what they can retain or more that more than what I think they can keep their focus for. So, if I know one of my athletes has very low attention span, maybe they've got ADHD or or something like this, I'm going to factor that in and I'm not going to say, hey, I need you to study for an hour today. I'm going to be like, hey, I need you to study this, maybe it's a technique DVD, maybe it's a a YouTube clip, I don't know. Just give me 10 minutes. Just sit down for 10 minutes, put a timer on. This is another one of your training sessions. Just do 10 minutes and then tell me what you got from that video. And you know, that that helps immensely as well. So, there's different ways of doing it. What I'm trying to get out mostly is, you know, I believe it's super important to what you're doing. And then we'll always have those people like, oh, so and so doesn't do that, and he's great, or so and so doesn't do this, and he's great. I agree, completely agree. In every single sport, there's going to be outliers. Now, if you're not the outlier, then you need to do this. And what I mean by that is, if we've got 10 people, you know, two of them or three of them might be their real laid back, I'm not doing any of this, rock up once a week or once a day, chilled as and still win world titles. 100%. I understand that. But those are outliers. That's not the the common theme in professional sports. Speaker 1: Now, something that you mentioned there, which I think is interesting, is you don't prescribe a specific type of study. Maybe it's video review, maybe it's watching instructionals, maybe it's note-taking, and you can note-take in a lot of different formats. And it sounds to me like the most important thing is that people just go about the process. And I specifically find this interesting because you mentioned, you know, people with ADHD. I don't know about the broad spectrum demographics of jiu-jitsu, but it really feels to me like pretty much everyone who trains the sport seems to have ADHD to some degree. I mean, heck, myself, I am pretty sure I've got ADHD. I've just never gotten a diagnosis for it because I've never gotten around to it, which is probably a sign that I have ADHD, right? So, it really seems, you know, talking to in our Discord community, so many of the people who come to us have been diagnosed with ADHD. And I think that's part of the reason why BJJ Mental Models is popular for people like that, because I think this audio vehicle that we use, where you can kind of listen in the background while you're doing other stuff, is helpful for some people who have trouble sitting down and putting, you know, one, two hours into instructional study. If there's an educational audio format you can listen to, just running that in the background while you're doing other stuff can be a way to sort of passively consume content. Now, of course, you'll reap different benefits and there's different limitations to that approach, but it's still a cool approach and I know a lot of folks wind up using it. It sounds to me like there isn't a single preferred study format that you recommend, but really you just tell people to kind of find what works for them. Am I correct? Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct. But I also help them find that too. So, I don't just say, hey, figure out the best way you like to study and let me know. You know, I'll start them taking notes and I'll start them, you know, making sure they send the videos and I'll and I'll give them a a template that I use or let them know what I like and what I I I'm looking for. And then over time, we figure out what works best for them, you know? So, if we use like uh, when I was working with Brianna St. Marie, like for her to text me her notes every day, it gives her anxiety and like she's not great with being on her phone all the time because it's not great for her and it's not great for, you know, her mental health and things like that. So, I would never push her to send me the notes daily. But I know she'll get them to me when she's comfortable. But when I'm working with an athlete like that, I trust that they're doing the work that I'm asking them to. So, then if I work with another athlete where I know they're on their phone all the time, they're doing scrolling or they're putting up TikTok reels or whatever and they're not getting me their notes, then I'll be on them and be like, hey, what are you doing? Like, this is more important than, you know, the reel that you're putting out or whatever. Um, same with Mo Black, you know, so we're we've got a let's say a game plan or a playbook right now we're trying to work and she's been heavy under stress and workload at her gym. So, I got all her notes for the week yesterday compared to daily. But that's okay because I'm supposed to be taking stress off her, not give her stress. So, it's up to me now to filter through those notes and see what I'm looking for and whatnot, and the athlete has to be comfortable. The only time that I won't accept things like this is if I know they're being lazy. If I know you're just not getting me your notes because you're being lazy, then I'll be on you. But if there's a specific reason for it, and it it's going to help if I'm not on your on you, then I'll do that as well. I am a big believer though that it that it has to be done. Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's actually a lot of reasons to do it beyond just the notes. There's some science and some evidence that teaches why we should be going through this practice if we're serious about rapid skill development. And, you know, I say this as kind of an older casual guy myself, it's okay to just train jiu-jitsu casually and not take it super seriously. But if your goal is really to squeeze out as much juice out of the orange as you possibly can, then some sort of practice like this helps. The reason why is because of a concept called effortful retrieval. When you put in work to review information, it reinforces the neural pathways in your brain and makes it easier to recall that in the future. But you have to actually put in some degree of work to do it. If you're not really putting in that work, you're just kind of, you know, looking at something once and then moving on, it's less likely you're going to be able to retain that info and less likely you're going to be able to recall it in the middle of a match. So, if you just watch an instructional once and you never look at it again, you may retain a few things, but you're not really extracting maximum value out of that instructional. The process of creating notes around that and almost translating it into your own way of thinking and your own mental models, so to speak, that really helps you understand that information and internalize it and recall it later. So, my suggestion is if someone is really focused on a piece of content, if there's something that you really want to learn, don't just watch it once, but make a practice out of actually studying it, creating derivative works out of it, like notes is a great example. That will really help retain it. I worry sometimes that because there's so much content out there, people feel almost a degree of FOMO, like they have to watch or listen to it all. And so what that means is in order to fit it all into the calendar, they'll watch everything once, they'll skim it and then they'll move on. If you do that, you're not really getting maximum value out of it. So, if you find something that's of interest to you, it makes sense to dig deep into it. And that means creating notes around it. Otherwise, you're just likely to forget and not use it. So, when people say things like, you know, I bought this instructional and I didn't get any value out of it, a lot of the time it's not a problem with the instructional, it's because the person just kind of watched it like a Netflix show, you know, they saw it once and then they forgot about it. You've got to make your brain work if you want to recall and actually learn that stuff. Speaker 2: 100%, man. And the other the other thing is well, the example I like to use is like, if as an athlete per se, or even just if you're a hobbyist, like if you go to the gym, you probably log your workout, like I did bench press 5x5 at X amount of weight, blah, blah, blah, because you want to see the progress and you want to be able to add onto that and be like, okay, at this date I did this, this is where I am now. Have I gotten stronger or whatnot? Like, it's pretty normal for that to happen, you know what I mean? But in jiu-jitsu, we don't do that, and it makes no sense. Like, how do you know you're getting better? In a sport where even the top-level athletes will tell you this, like, it's very, very hard to be consistent at the highest level because the game is always changing and some days it's just not your day. And, you know, there's nothing you could do about it. You could be the fittest, the strongest, the best weight cut, and it's just not your day. So, you we can't even track it off uh, specific just competition results, or how you've gone against someone in training, uh, blah, blah, blah. But if you can write your notes and, okay, we start working, you know, let's use half butterfly, snap down to a guillotine as an example. You know, and we start putting that into our notes and we start building on it in January 2026. And then you look back on that in January 2027 and you realize, well, man, that's a a massive part of my game now. It flows through everything that I do from that position, but I only started doing this a year ago. Well, then that shows progression, right? And it shows an ability to track that progression that we do with everything else besides jiu-jitsu. So, it's not the be-all and end-all, but it definitely helps, and it's very easy to do. It takes, you know, less than 10 minutes a day to write your notes and to to implement them. And then on top of that, if we're talking about if we go a little bit outside of the physical or technical side of jiu-jitsu, and we talk about the mental, if, you know, I was working with a therapist or I was, you know, looking to improve the quality of my life and I want to be a happier, more joyful person, one of the biggest recommendations from psychologists is, you know, journaling and writing down three things you're grateful for. You hear it all the time. You know what I mean? So, what if we did that with jiu-jitsu? What if we wrote, hey, man, I'm today I was really grateful for the fact that, you know, I had 10 people to train with, you know, the mats were nice and clean, and I was able to hit a butterfly sweep. And then you start to enjoy what you're doing more. And then the more that we enjoy it, the more we're going to benefit from it and get out of it, you know what I mean? And then you could do the same thing for your studying that DVD that you're talking about. Don't look for the whole DVD. You know what I mean? Like, look for one or two things and write them down and take notes on them. I did a um, Adam Wazinski seminar when I was in uh, Vegas just gone for Nogi Worlds, and he plays, you know, I love half butterfly, I love butterfly, I love his game. So, I I wanted to go there and and see what he was doing different to what I was doing from those positions. Now, obviously, I'm not saying we're the same level, but what I'm saying is, you know, technically what he was doing was something I wasn't doing. And to be fair, all the butterfly stuff was was pretty spot on to what I like to do or how I like to teach it. But he showed a detail to the cutting armbar that I wasn't doing, and now I am doing, and it's significantly increased my ability to submit from the cutting armbar, which now I can pass on to my students. If I sat there and said, I only got this one thing from this 90-minute seminar that cost me X amount of money, it wasn't worth it. That's terrible. You know what I mean? You don't have to it doesn't have to be the whole thing. It can be small increments, and that's massive. And again, it it flows back into being able to track that. I wrote down that whole seminar. So, when I go back, I can look at, oh, I I I learned this detail on this date and started implementing it here. Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question. How do you keep track of everything in a seminar or a class when you've got so much stuff being thrown at you? Because some people will sit there mid-class with a notepad and actually write this down. You can do that. That's personally not my preferred method because I find if I'm focused on taking notes, then I'm not really focused on what's being said. And sometimes what people will say is, you know, especially in a seminar where you might be with someone for hours, maybe even days, is hard to remember it all and then put that onto notes. How do you suggest athletes do this if they're going to a class or a seminar and they want to take notes, but just to try to juggle that with the actual live training at the same time? Speaker 2: Yeah, again, man, it's number one, don't. Don't try and retain everything. That's it's crazy to me that people do that or try to do that, you know what I mean? Like, it's just not going to happen, man. Like, unless you have a a photogenic memory or you're, I don't know. Like, I don't I haven't met many people that are are going to retain, you know, 10 techniques in one session. So, number one is give yourself the grace not to do that. You know, a lot of people will be hard on themselves and then forget everything because they can't remember everything. So, that's number one. Number two, it goes back to what we were saying before. What works for you the best? For me, it's as soon as I finish the seminar, I want to write down as much as I remember. And like, again, not try and remember all of it. Just everything I remember because what I remember will be the key points of what I want to retain because that's what stuck out to me. So, I want to write that stuff down. Now, I might miss a a few details on the way he passes a a certain position. But if that didn't stick out to me, it's because it's not something I'm interested in, or else it would have stuck out. Does that make sense? So, like, that's what I want to do. But at the same time, man, do what works for you. So, I like to do the notes as soon as I finish, not during ever. It'll always be when I finish. Uh, maybe it is during that you like to write notes. Maybe it is you videoing the seminar. Maybe it's your friend videoing the seminar and sending you the footage so that you can solely focus during the seminar. Maybe it's asking Adam, let's we'll just use Adam as the example. Adam to demonstrate the technique on your training partner and you film just that two minutes of him demonstrating the technique. Maybe it's you getting your voice note from your phone and asking him to just go through the key points of that one sweep on your voice note. You know, there's like five or six different ways you could remember and retain a seminar that you're probably either not doing or haven't thought about doing. And they're all there, man. And 90% of the time, the the guys that are teaching or the girls that are teaching will do any of that stuff. You know what I mean? They're they're very much like, I haven't been to a seminar in a long, long time, man, where I where I thought that the person teaching didn't actually want the people in the seminar to use it and get better. I haven't had that in a very long time. Speaker 1: I have been to those seminars before though. Speaker 2: Oh, I have too, man. Oh, I I definitely have too, but I haven't been there in a long time. I don't know if it's just the people I'm around or I don't know. But I haven't been there in a long time. If someone came up to me in my seminar and was like, hey, man, can you please just do the technique on my partner and I can film it? 100% I would do it. The only thing for me, and I know a lot of my athletes is, please don't put it on a public forum because it's obviously my work, but happy to. Or, hey, man, can you talk me through this? Happy to. You know what I mean? Or I see someone taking notes, and I always tell people at the beginning of every one of my seminars, the exact same thing. Film as much as you want, whenever you want, move around as much as you want. Just please don't put it on a public forum because it obviously is something that, you know, people pay for and I sell. And anything outside of that, do that. So, you know, there's a lot of options there, man, for for people who maybe don't like taking notes, aren't good at taking notes, etc. I have a a a girl in the gym, personally in my gym. I don't like working with kids and teenagers for various reasons, but I have one girl. She's 13. She's she's won a bunch of stuff, man. She's won worlds at different tournaments, etc. Man, she takes notes every single day, and she's 13. And I'm like, send me your notes. And I go through the notes and it's like I'm working with, you know, a professional athlete. But that's the environment that she's in, so that's what she learns. At the other gym she trains at, because she doesn't just solely train at my gym, she doesn't take notes because they don't ask her to take notes. So, why would she? Does that make sense? So, you've got to make sure that you're like in an environment that you is helping you progress. Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing I I will say on the topic of how to remember what to write down. I I'm with you. I don't like to take notes live while a class or a seminar is ongoing, just because it takes me out of the actual seminar or discussion, right? I'm so focused on writing as fast as I can and not missing anything that I wind up not really absorbing the information. I'm just kind of acting as a conduit to get what's being said onto paper. I'm basically being a transcriber, and I I don't like doing that. So, what I will do if I want to remember everything in a seminar, I'll use a sort of a mental shortcut, something like a mnemonic, where instead of trying to remember every single thing that is being said and done during the class, my goal is to just remember a single number, and that is how many things the instructor showed. So, if they start off by showing a, I don't know, an armbar, I'll mentally think to myself, okay, one. The number I have to remember is one. And then if they add onto that with a variant, like what to do if the person stacks you, then that's another technique. So, okay, two, there's two things I have to remember. So, the only thing I'm trying to really remember out of the class is a single number, and that is how many things were actually shown. Then what I'll do afterwards, probably after the class, could be a few hours after, even a day after, is I will sit down with a notepad or a digital device, and I'll recall that number, how many things were there that were shown, and I will force myself to one by one go through and remember every single thing that was shown. And what I find is that way, if I remember how many things there were, then I know if I've remembered everything. So, if I remember that the number was eight and I come up with eight things that I've written down, cool, I remembered it all. If I can't remember something, so if I remember that, hey, there were the instructor showed 10 things, but I can only remember five of them, what I'll often do is I'll just mail the instructor and I'll say, hey, from the class that you did, here are the five things that I remember, but I remember you showed 10. What am I missing? What I find is when you do that, instructors are incredibly flattered and impressed that someone was actually paying that much attention to what they were saying. And I find that to be a really helpful process because the reason I like this approach is it forces you to do the mental work of recalling everything. It creates almost a second follow-up lesson where in addition to what happened in the class, now you have to recall and regurgitate what happened in the class, almost like taking a test. And that exercise, that's effortful retrieval. Again, it forces your brain to work and that strengthens the neural pathways and makes it likely that you'll recall things easier. So, that's one thing that I like to do. If you like me, if you struggle to remember things, but you really want to, just remembering the number of things to remember and then coming back and kind of making that into a checklist and forcing yourself to recall all of those later onto paper, I find that super helpful. Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of those things too, man, is people will probably listen to this and be like, oh, Steve, that's easy for you because you have a podcast and you've had all these people on your podcast, so they're they're more likely to respond to you. No, I'm pretty sure they will respond to you if you reach out. The issue then is if you try and then use them as your free content. And what I mean by that is like, if you went to their seminar and you asked a question about their seminar, I'm pretty sure they're going to respond and give you the the necessary answer. But then if you follow up with, okay, but what about this and this and this, which has nothing to do with the seminar, now you're just kind of taking the piss on them being generous with their time. And I think that's where we get a little bit misconstrued with being able to speak to these high-level coaches or athletes or whatever. At the end of the day, they're still professionals trying to make money. So, I would definitely recommend reaching out and asking the coach. But, you know, sometimes I'll get people ask me a question and I'll answer the question, and then they'll want to dig for more information on like the mental stuff. And it's like, bro, this is something that, you know, the elite athletes pay for. I can't just give it out or there's no point in them paying for it either. It's a fine line because you don't want to be an asshole about it, but you also have to protect your your work if that makes sense. Speaker 1: Well, what is interesting to me, it never occurs to people that, hey, if you do have all of those follow-up questions and you do want a chunk of the coach's time, you can always just pay for it, right? I mean, that's the cool thing about jiu-jitsu. Most coaches, because the sport is still quite small, most of them still have some availability to do a degree of contract work, right? I mean, you would pay them for a private session in person. You can also pay them to just kind of help you remotely as well. And so, if you were really inspired by a coach at a seminar or something and you you want more from them than just a quick follow-up question, you can always offer to just pay them for their time. I mean, most coaches are pretty reasonable to work with in the sport, and my experience has been, if you're broke and you can't afford their time, if you're really dedicated, there's probably still a way that you can make it worthwhile for the coach to answer your questions. Maybe you offer to do some volunteer stuff for them, you know, maybe make some Instagram reels for them because everyone hates doing that. You know, there there's ways that you can do that as long as you're compensating the coach for their time. And no one ever thinks to do that, right? I always encourage people, remember that most coaches in this sport, they make their living selling their knowledge. And so, if you want the coach's knowledge, you can always offer to buy it. Most coaches are are relatively reasonably priced considering the level of experience that they bring. Speaker 2: Man, I don't know if I've ever told this story on a podcast or uh, I definitely told it in person and at seminars and stuff, and I saw him at Nogi Worlds and he's always whenever I see him, he's always so nice and he's the best guy on the planet, which is JT Torres. But that's how I started in this professional coaching role because it was about 2019, I'm going to say, maybe 2020. It was definitely before COVID, so I'm going to say 2019. I had some inconsistent results at black belt and I I was like, I hated it, and a lot of it came down to my mentality towards competing and how I was competing and whatnot. And um, JT had obviously just won second ADCC, and man, I literally sent him a a DM and was like, hey, man, do you teach privates? And he was like, yep, this is the cost. And I was like, that's cool, man. The problem is is I'm here in Perth and can you teach it online? I'm not really looking for technique stuff. I'm looking for, you know, your mentality towards different things and and he was like, yeah, no problems. And we did a few months of me just doing a private every couple weeks, man, of him going over his mentality towards different stuff, his mentality to training, different training structures he used, what he's thinking about different matches, blah, blah, blah. And it and then when I started doing that, man, I started to see such a big difference. I was like, why am I not doing this for others? You know what I mean? Why am I not doing this for the guys in my gym? So, then I created the it was at the time, it was called the Essence Mental Program, I'm pretty sure. And I just started doing it to people in the gym. I did like, I gave away the first like 10 for free and was like, hey, I want to try this. Let me see what you think. And they improved rapidly, and then I started selling it. And it was literally because I randomly reached out to JT to see if he would do it. And he did. And he didn't know me at the time, and I hadn't won anything at the time as an athlete, not like big time, you know what I mean? Or big super fights or anything like that. And also as a coach, I didn't have any world-class athletes I was coaching. So, it wasn't like he only did it because, you know, I'd coached an athlete to win ADCC or something like that. It was literally because he had time and I had time and I had money, and I paid him money, and he helped me. And yeah, it's crazy. Speaker 1: Yeah, it it is something that people don't think about, but always remember that people on the other side of the Instagram DM, they're you know, you're not talking to Taylor Swift, right? You're not talking to billionaires. Even the the best-known names in the sport, like Gordon Ryan, I mean, they still sell blocks of their time, right? I mean, they just opened up a new gym and you they've been posting their their rates and stuff online. You can get access to pretty much anyone in the sport that you would want to, as long as you're willing to pay for it. If you really want to work with pretty much any coach in the world, that option is probably available to you. And that's one of the unique things about jiu-jitsu versus a lot of other sports. You might not get that option if you're into soccer or American football, but if you're into jiu-jitsu, pretty much any coach you want to work with in the world, there would be a way to do that if you're willing to meet their hourly rate. Speaker 2: Yeah, and in saying that, man, like Gordon as well, like as long as you're like side track Gordon just in general, as long as you're respectful in what you're doing, most of the coaches are going to be pretty open to to helping. But even Gordon, it's funny, when Adele won Nogi Worlds uh, December, Gordon was about to coach Helena like two matches later. So, he was behind us at the desk after Adele had won. I have nothing to do with Gordon. I never have. Adele speaks to him. They're cordial or friendly at least. So, I know there was a relationship there, but I she said hello to him. He congratulated her. I said hello. And then I just asked him. I was like, hey, man, you keep teasing like this new half guard stuff. I think it's this, you know, this is what I've been working on with, you know, Adele and and others. Is is am I on the right track? Like, do is that what it is? And he just kind of laughed. He's like, that's what it is. And I was like, sweet, I'm I've picked that up and we're we're rolling with that. So, I won't say it because I think he's got stuff he wants to release and whatnot. I don't want to blow the whistle on on his stuff. But again, I was respectful with what I said, but I was also not scared just to say it, and I also wasn't scared to be told, no, you're wrong, which is okay too. You know, some people approach coaches and they just want validation on on the work that they're doing. If you have that mindset, you know, you're not open to learning. You just want to be told you're right, which is not, you know, a growth mindset in my opinion. I was very open to him turning around and be like, no, man, we're not doing that. And I was like, okay, I'm doing that, but it it's all good. So, have have that too. Like, go and talk to these people. They're they're normal people. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Well, some of them are maybe not entirely normal, but they are accessible. Speaker 2: No, no, no. Speaker 1: I have found that the even some of the bigger names in the sport, you know, they'll respond to your your DMs. I mean, think about your experience training jiu-jitsu, right? What people who train jiu-jitsu, most of the time, all they want to do is talk about jiu-jitsu, and their family hates them for it and wants them to shut up. If they can find a captive audience who's willing to, you know, to ask them questions and talk about this, that's exciting for a lot of jiu-jitsu people. So, most of them will be open to it. I'm always surprised when I reach out and DM people I've never spoken to, how willing they are to just answer random questions, right? I mean, showing someone that you are interested in them and what they're doing, that's always flattering, and it's always something that people are going to be willing to talk about because it's gratifying to them and it reinforces their work. Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's easy for me to talk about, man, because I've done it like my whole career because I'm one of these people, I just want to learn, man. And like, I'm not afraid to be told no. So, another example, man, is before the crown, you know, I called Brianna and we had a a FaceTime and we're going over um, the plan for the crown and and whatnot. And Giani was there, and obviously I've met Giani a few times and he's been around Brianna. And I said to him, I was like, bro, I was going through my WhatsApp and there's a video from like 2021 that you sent me on the head and arm choke because I sent you a DM asking you a question. And it's like a four-minute video. And they were laughing and I sent it to him and he's obviously a lot younger and blah, blah, blah. Again, man, I had no affiliation with Giani at all. He don't know me. I hadn't done anything at the time either. But I was like, this guy does this well. I'm going to send the message, hey, man, I'm struggling with this. What do you think? And then he took his time to film a video and send it. Now, I'm not saying everybody's going to do that, but it happens, you know what I mean? It happens more than you realize, and usually people are pretty willing to help. So, yeah, it's it's funny, man. I got a a bunch of those stories. Maybe I'm just a weirdo that that texts too many people. I don't know. Speaker 1: Well, something I also wanted to ask you about is individualized study content. So, it's one thing to ask other people about their game or to watch instructionals or to go to a seminar, but you talked earlier about studying your own work. This often means things like tape study. Talk a little bit about what that looks like to you because my experience here aligns with yours. Most people from the most casual of casual hobbyists all the way up to pro-level grapplers, they all get tremendous value out of doing tape study. But for a variety of reasons, people still don't really do it. Maybe talk about why you find that so helpful and what it looks like when people do it. Speaker 2: Yeah, man. So, like I said, it's you asked me, I don't know if it was online or off, but it was it's about 7:00 a.m. here in in Perth, and I've received 13 different training rounds from four different athletes. So, Mo Black, Valerie Wong, and a couple of others have sent training footage from yesterday. So, that's what I wake up to every morning, and I got to get that done. So, what that looks like for me, man, is is literally just going through their rounds and looking at what the goal was and, you know, a big thing for me is decision-making. So, like, a lot of people when they look at, you know, tape study and they look at like uh, their rounds, let's say individualized, let's not even look at competition, let's look at training rounds. You know, they'll look at, did I pass the guard? Did I get the sweep? You know, did I finish the submission? I don't really look at any of that, man. What I'm looking for is like, what decision you made under pressure and at that time. So, if I know Mo Black's goal is, you know, uh, double underhooks and she's playing butterfly guard and the person starts to stand up and then Mo stands up and starts to wrestle, well, I don't think she really attempted her goal there. Her decision was to retreat and reset. I don't know if that would have been the right decision at the moment. Where as if the person tried to stand up, she goes for a, you know, a two-on-one arm drag. The person now has to base. She can sit in her underhook. She can start to off-balance, puts her second underhook in. Now, it's not as easy as that, but what I'm saying is, I really look for, you know, the decisions being made. If you're in a defensive position, are you making the right defensive structures before you start to escape? Like, are you when someone's on your back, are you instantly trying to just roll out with no worry about where their hands are and why? Or have you put defensive hands in straight away and then we're starting to move from there, which is obviously the better answer. That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for all the time, man. So, I go over training footage, my own and the athletes. That's probably the most thing I do, to be fair, is I watch so much, you know, footage all the time. And yes, I actually speed it up. I put it on two times speed. I can still watch it at two times speed. Thankfully, my parents gave me a brain that can process that. Man, it helps me get through the rounds a lot a lot easier. But I'll also slow it down if I need to. But yeah, I'll I'll watch 10 to 20 training rounds a day, man, comfortably. And the best part about that, though, is I'll do it, you know, at different parts of the day. So, like, right now, I know I've got an hour before the team rocks up to do their conditioning. My daughter isn't here right now, so I've got an hour where I could sit and watch this NFL game that's on that is is pretty good. Or I could watch the training footage. Which one's going to benefit myself and my athletes? So, I'll put the training footage on with maybe the game in the background. After conditioning, I have to sauna and ice bath. You know, that's usually between 20, 45 minutes in the sauna, and then three to five minutes in the ice bath. Okay, so we could get a nearly an hour of tape study out while I'm doing that. You know, things like that, man, is prioritizing the study as a training session. You know, like, yeah, I'm physically not working, but mentally I'm working, and that can sometimes be as important, if not more important, than me getting on the mat and doing 10 rounds. So, I make it a priority, man. I don't just uh, skim over it in terms of like, I'll do that tomorrow. It's like, no, I'm going to get it done. It's a little bit more difficult on my own training days because I also have to make sure I focus on my training. So, I won't watch any tape of the athletes before I train because I want to have a clear mind going into my own session. But then after is when I'll prioritize them, and then at night is usually when I'll prioritize reviewing my own training from the day. And again, the keyword there is prioritize, man. It's what matters to you. What matters to me, and I tell this to guys all the time, is not winning tournaments. That is a byproduct of the process and the training and the skill development, etc. My ultimate goal in jiu-jitsu as an athlete is to get as good as I can possibly be. Not better than anybody else, just as good as I can be. What is my goal as a coach? Like, I want to be one of the best coaches in the history of jiu-jitsu. Not team coaches, just specific athlete coaches. What I do there, I need to get really good at understanding trends and understanding decisions and understanding how to study and how to break down notes and then also how to like give that to the athletes. There's a better word for it, but how to give that to the athletes individually, you know what I mean? So, that takes time, man, and it takes experience. How do I deal with Adele compared to how I deal with Dante? Etc., etc. So, for me, it's a priority, man, and it's something that I think has helped me individually 10 times. Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well said. Do you get a different type of value out of watching your own rolls versus breaking down others? Because you mentioned you do your own as well, and I always find that a interesting. It's a, you know, on one hand, you can send your rolls to a coach or someone else for review. You can also watch them yourself. What would you say are the pros and cons of getting someone else's feedback versus your own? Speaker 2: The pros of doing your own is you understand what you were thinking at the time. So, if as long as you're you're able to be critical on yourself and not overly critical. I don't just look at my rounds and be like, oh, you stuffed that up, you did this wrong, blah, blah. I'm still looking for things I did right to number one is like, okay, you you can understand what you were thinking at the time. Number two is you can understand what uh, percentage you were going at. You know what I mean? Like, I might watch a round and think that someone's going 100%, but they might be going 50%. I don't really know that. But if I'm doing looking at my own, I understand what I'm doing, you know? The negative of that is obviously, you know, you're not always as critical as you could be on your own self, and also you're not you're kind of tunnel visioned on like what you're doing that day and not like the long-term goal. So, if I look at like right now with Adele, when I'm looking at her footage of her training, she's got super fights coming up. She's got this and that. She's super busy. I'm not looking at any of that. I'm looking at how this translates over to her in ADCC in six months. So, I'm able to really detach from the short-term gratification of what's happening and look at the long-term, which I think is super important. And now when I say I look at my own footage, I do that, of course, but I also have people look at my footage, man. All the time. I have people in my gym. I have people outside of the gym. I have people that I train with in terms of like, might be competitors. We might end up in the same division. And then obviously, I have access to all these athletes because I coach them. That doesn't mean I won't get their feedback to help me, you know? Just because I'm, let's say, Adele's coach, doesn't mean I don't ask her, hey, what do you do from closed guard from here? Or same with Dante or whatnot. So, after Nogi Worlds, I had a guy, uh, his name's Alex. He's a brown belt from PJ Barch's gym. I've been working with him for a long time, and, you know, he tore his ACL. It might not have been his ACL. It's his meniscus, I think. And he had surgery. So, he couldn't do Nogi Worlds. So, I was like, cool, bro, we need to keep you in the loop. And he watched all my training footage, man, and gave me feedback, and so did Keith Koorian. Hey, man, this is what I think here. This is what I think there. So, I leveraged those relationships to make sure that I'm getting the best out of me, man. It's important to do that, I think. You know, the cons of that is obviously sometimes, you know, the cost can be depending on who you're working with, can be a con. You know, but I think it depends on what your goals are, man. If you really want to get the best out of it, you need someone to be doing that, and you need someone to be looking at it, and you need someone to be reviewing it. It's very easy to review match footage, man. It's very difficult to review training footage daily because you might not see massive improvement or a massive decline in the skill set, and you might just have a bad day. But if you're only paying someone a one-off to view your training footage, they don't know if it's a bad day or a good day. They have no data to back up that, you know? But if you take Adele, there was a day this week where, you know, she wasn't super happy with what she was doing, and then I watched the footage and I was like, you're fine. You're completely fine. This is not a bad thing at all. You know, but I know that because I've seen her training footage for five years, and I know that, okay, you're it wasn't to your standard, but the standard we're looking for, it's completely fine. But maybe if I had just seen her one, she, uh, Jake, I know you work with Adele, can you look at this footage? And I look at it and I'm like, man, that's not the level you should be at. But I don't know that because it could be, you know, just a bad day or a bad competition, you know what I mean? Another example is is Dante, you know, like, if you look at his Pans match this year, he had a bad day, man, and he lost by a multitude of points. It wasn't a great day for him. But we were trying to go up a few weight classes. We were looking at certain things. And then he went to the WNO open weight bracket and lost a close decision to Declan in the final. So, because of the bad day that we reviewed and went over, and he was Dante's very good at being honest with himself. Hey, man, this wasn't what it was and blah, blah, blah. We were able to make the changes for the open weight bracket, and he was able to have an extremely great performance, you know? So, it varies, but it's it's definitely like, it's something I would I would encourage people to have an outside source look at it. Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that approach. And again, it doesn't have to be a a world-class coach. If that's not something that you can make work, even getting a an experienced buddy to review your footage can be helpful. It's better than nothing, right? The second set of eyes helps a lot. Something that one of our coaches mentioned after doing many, many reviews, they put together a really awesome guide for how to get the most out of a review session. If anyone actually wants that guide, shoot me a message, I can share it. But they had some great pointers about how to make those video submissions as useful as possible. Because as you mentioned, you as the viewer, you don't know what was going through the person's mind when they did stuff. You know, it might look like they did a bad job of preventing a guard pass. Well, maybe that person was letting the other person work. Maybe they intentionally left some openings because they felt more experienced than the other person and wanted to give them a chance, or maybe they wanted to work bottom side control, so they kind of allowed that to happen. You as the viewer don't know that. So, our coach had a few suggestions as to what you should do if you want to get the most out of these reviews. One of the things they suggested is wrap context around it. Don't just send in a video and say, review this. But make sure that you provide a bit of an explainer. What were you trying to do? What do you feel worked well? What do you feel didn't work well? What's what is your honest assessment of how you performed? Provide that info to the coach because that way, if you were, you know, working on something specific, your coach knows that and they can take that into context when they provide the review. The other thing that I always suggest too, like you said, a lot of people one-off reviews. We get these requests all the time, like, can I get a world-class coach to review one clip from me? I mean, the answer I guess is yes, technically you can do it, but I really discourage people from doing that. I would frankly tell people, if that's what they're looking for, like a one-off review, our service is probably not ideal for them because a coach will always be able to do a better job if they get to know the person and can provide real feedback. It's like the difference between going to a seminar versus training with a coach for years. The coach who knows you in person is always going to be able to to better assess what you're doing and whether it's working for you because they understand the game. My feeling is always if someone wants like a one-off review where they just want you to do one review and then never talk to you again, that's kind of like getting a celebrity cameo done, you know, where you pay them once to shout out happy birthday to you. It doesn't really mean anything. I think for real value, you want it to be an ongoing relationship, which is what I encourage for people if they want to do this. You're going to get minimal value out of a single review session. You get the most if you do a bunch of them. Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%, man. And it's difficult because, you know, it's not something that the other thing as well, man, is there's levels to it as well, in my opinion. And I don't want this to come across as arrogant or whatnot, but like, it's difficult for people to understand the levels that the elite athletes work at when it comes to this video review and things like that. It's, you know, if you're paying someone five bucks to review your video, it's probably not going to be as quality as, you know, someone that's you're charging a a high rate to, you know, but they have the same job. It's the same as black belts, man. There's black belts and then there's black belts. And when you are a black belt, you understand this. And I talk about this a lot. Like, Dante is 10 times better than I am, but we're both black belts that compete in the middleweight division. But I understand this. So, it's like, it's a hard one for me to discuss, man, because it's like, I would always seek out like the best coaches that I can. The price range is always going to be like a sticking point because sometimes it it can be, you know, difficult for people. But it's a lot people like to take the easier option, you know, oh, my mate in the gym can do it. Yeah, but is your mate in the gym going to get you where you want to go? You know, how much detail are they really looking into it? Like I I've mentioned a few times on this podcast, like what we're looking at and why and things like that. It's not just, you know, one of the least things I do with video review is fix people's technique because I don't think the technique portion is as important of my time as the decision-making or the strategy or the game plan. You know what I mean? If you want me to fix your X-guard sweep, I'll fix your X-guard sweep, but also you've probably got people in the gym that can fix your X-guard sweep. Like, ask them. You probably don't have people in the gym that are going to understand the strategy and game plan behind why we're doing this eight months out from ADCC, if that makes sense. Speaker 1: It definitely does make sense. Now, on the competition scene, where do you stand in terms of athletes reviewing or scouting upcoming competitors? And this can come up if you're in a high-profile match with someone who has a lot of footage. Maybe you want to scout them and come up with a game plan specifically based around what they're doing. I know a lot of athletes who do this, but I also know some who, as you mentioned earlier, they prefer to outsource that piece because they feel that, hey, you know, if you spend a ton of time watching and studying your upcoming opponent's work in the past, that can almost kind of get in your head. So, I know some athletes will say, when it comes to scouting, rather than doing it themselves, they will ask someone else like their coach to do it for them. And that acts almost like an objectivity barrier where the coach can get in in the way, review that upcoming competitor, come up with the game plan, and give it to the athlete so that they can do it without basically letting their future opponent live rent-free in their head leading up to the match. What are your thoughts on that? Do you agree with that or do you have a different approach? Speaker 2: No, I agree. I think you for sure. Like, the more information you have, the more knowledge you have, I think it's always a, you know, a benefit. You know, there's you could definitely have too much, but it's a benefit, man. Like, if you're getting psyched out by watching your opponents or you're focusing too much on their game or these kind of things, then the way you're going about the study is wrong because should you feel nervous and anxious? Yeah, I think you can when you do that. That's my opinion. If you're getting like it spooks you, then, you know, there's probably a deeper issue there that you're not confronting. At the same time, some guys won't do it and they have uh, tremendous success. Gabriel Steveson, Stevenson was on the Joe Rogan podcast the other day, and he said that for the Olympics, he just winged it. He didn't watch any footage of any of his opponents because he didn't want to know what they did. But coming into MMA, now he's like, man, I can't do that. You know, the risk is too high. So, I have coaches that do this and, you know, they'll John will send me footage and blah, blah, blah. So, like, again, I don't think there's one size fits all, which is why it's probably a frustrating answer. But again, it comes back to like, are you lazy or does that actually work for you? You know what I mean? Because some people would just do it because they're lazy. You know, like, they'll just be like, oh, I don't watch footage, man, because it just, you know, I don't want to see what my opponent's doing. I don't want to I don't want to play their game. But if you go out there blind, how are you not playing their game? Like, if you don't know that the person has like a super flexible impossible guard and you just let them pull without trying to score off the pull or pressure the pull, well, you're technically playing their game because you've just given them the situation. Or if you if you don't know that the like, if you went against Michael Pixley, which blows my mind that people still don't know about his wrestling pedigree and they'll try and wrestle with him. Like, how do you not know that? Like, it's probably not the best option for you long-term to win the match. You know what I mean? Unless you're just like, okay, I just want to test myself and challenge myself regardless of result. Yeah, I get that. But like, probably wrestling or standing up with Pixley is probably not the best answer to how you're going to win the match. If there's any matches of Pixley losing, they're usually not from the standing position. Does that make sense? So, it's like, okay, I get what you're trying to say, but there's probably a deeper issue. Now, should someone else do the review for you? I like that. You know, that's what I do for most of my athletes. I'll do it for them, but that comes with trust. You have to trust what I see is right. So, if you just pay someone a one-off, hey, man, can you study Bushesha for me and and tell me what he does really good? Like, how do you know that what I'm saying is right? Because I haven't done this for you before. So, you don't know. But if I've done 20 matches for you and, you know, 90% of the time we were spot on with the game plan or spot on with what we're doing, you're probably going to trust what I say when I say it. And that's a big thing, man. Like, when I first started working with Dante, was his match against Tommy Langaker in One FC in Thailand, you know, and Heath was there and they had their thoughts on what they should do in the match and I had my thoughts as well and we're very similar, but, you know, I added a couple of things here and Heath added a couple of things there and, you know, I think after that, Dante trusted me more because what I said worked, you know what I mean? And it's like, okay, well, he does know what he's talking about. And I think that's super important too, man. You need to just you need to be able to trust what the person is saying and not just because they're so and so. You know, it it doesn't just matter because it's this person's won 10 world titles. That doesn't mean they're going to be able to give you the information that you need. I know that doesn't help to an extent, but what I'm saying is you should probably do more research and understand better what you're asking for and who you're asking from before you like commit. And then when you do commit, give it time. You know, give it time. So, like, I'm working with a new strength and conditioning coach now. Um, his name's Chris Jaffrey. He works with Volkanovski. Man, I've been in the gym for 15 years. I know what I'm doing. But I also know he knows more than what I know. But we've only been on the program for three weeks. So, if I turn around today and was like, hey, man, I'm not seeing the results or like, I don't know why you programmed this or this is silly or whatever. But I haven't even given him the time to show what he's capable of doing. But I said I'd work with him and I was like, I trust you. Therefore, I need to trust the process and I need to give it time, which by the way, it's going amazing. I'm not saying it's not. But does that make sense? I'm just giving a a real world example of like how I would do it. Speaker 1: Definitely, definitely. Well, if people want to dig into this deeper, Jake, how can they go about doing this? I mean, first, I suggest that people follow you on Instagram because I know you do workshops on this material, and if people are following you there, then they'll see when you've got an upcoming one. And you do those remotely as well, right? Or do people have to actually be in Perth to make them happen? Speaker 2: No, man, I do them remotely. You know, I I work with coaches remotely too. I work with um, Paul from Next Generation in London, which is pretty famous gym, but if people don't know, it's where Patty the Baddy trains at. I do a bit of work with him and his his son. You know, that's a a space that I'm really interested in working more in is is developing coaches and helping coaches develop their athletes. You know, this is not something I want to keep to myself. I'd love to share it. So, definitely available for workshops. I can I can run specific competition camps if people want. And then obviously working with individual athletes, but I definitely work with individual coaches. Aiden Woodhouse is another one. He runs London Grapple. I work with him. And from the feedback he's given me, you know, he's ecstatic with the progress we've made and things like that. So, definitely that. I also have my Patreon, which I'm pretty consistent with, not just technique-wise, but mindset-wise, you know, athlete progression, skill development. I talk about a lot of these topics on there and give my thoughts and and whatnot. I also do like a lot of interviews on there with the athletes I work with. So, you know, why we're doing something and when and their mindset towards what they're doing and usually because it's me and not just a random interview, they're they're usually a bit more open than they would if it was just someone they didn't know. So, you get a bit of an insight there as well, man. And then yeah, definitely the the Instagram and stuff. You guys are more than welcome to send me a message anytime you want, ask me about any of this stuff. Obviously, if it gets to a point where like, this is stuff that I would be charging for, then I'm going to be honest and let you know. I've I've got a daughter, I got to provide for, so I got to I got to make sure I'm I'm making money. But um, I'm always going to respond and I'm always going to if I can't answer your question or I or it's not something that is in my wheelhouse, then I'll usually point you in the right direction. Hey, you should go and talk to so and so about this. They know more than I do. Speaker 1: Well said, my friend. Well, I will put links to all of that in the show notes, and if it's out of people's budgets or it's impossible for them to schedule it to come to an actual workshop with you, like you said, a lot of your your best info is up on your Patreon. That's a really affordable way to get access to that. So, I will put a link there so that people can find it. I'll also link to all of our stuff. Everything we make is at BJJmentalmodels.com. There are hundreds of episodes just like this in the main podcast feed, plus mini episodes if you want to quickly review the main concepts we discuss faster. I also suggest people sign up for our newsletter, which is a great resource, has some really creative jiu-jitsu thought pieces on there. Comes out once a week on Friday, so you'll want to sign up for that too. Beyond all of that, please do consider leveling up with us at BJJ Mental Models Premium. It's the world's largest library of jiu-jitsu audio content. Think MasterClass or Audible for jiu-jitsu. If that's your preferred vehicle for learning, if you wish that there was more kind of audio content that you could consume instead of just instructionals, please do check out our stuff. We've got hundreds and hundreds of people around the world who subscribe from casual people right up to world champions. And of course, the first week is free, so if you're unsure of what you're getting into, you can always try it out. And if you've got any questions, shoot me a message, whether it be about premium or just our material in general. Like with Jake, I'm always happy to point you in the right direction. If you've got a problem you're working on, maybe I can help you find someone who can resolve it, or I can put you towards a piece that we've done in the past that addresses that. So, thank you to everyone who supports myself and also Jake as well. I really appreciate everyone here. And Jake, thank you so much for coming by and doing this. As always, I love chatting with you about this stuff. It's a a topic very near and dear to my heart, so thank you again for sharing your wisdom here. Speaker 2: No, I really appreciate it. Like I said, really appreciate anytime that you have me on, man. Anyone that listens and has either come up and, you know, spoken to me about any of the work I've done on here or or anything like that, like it it does mean a lot to me and I am really grateful. I never take it for granted, um, that I get to do this for for a job and a living. So, I really do appreciate that and uh, I hope you guys enjoyed it and uh, yeah, if you need anything, you've got the links to to send it to me. Speaker 1: Absolutely. It'll be in the show notes. Well, thank you, Jake, so much and thank you to the listeners as well. Appreciate you as well, and I will talk to you next week. See you then.