Ep. 386: Don't Make Them Feel Stupid, feat. Heather Morgan

Speaker 1: Hey everybody, before we get started this week, I just want to let you know we released a new mindset course featuring Rob Bernaki from Island Top Team and BJJ Concepts. It's called Mindset for Betas. It's an amazing resource that breaks down a new way to build a resilient Jiu-Jitsu mindset. It's part of BJJ Mental Models Premium. I will spare you the full sales pitch because you can try it for free. Just go to BJJmentalmodels.com/beta. I will give you a free month, you can check out the course and if you decide that it's not worth your money, you can cancel, you won't have to pay a cent. I've already been told by subscribers that this is the most valuable piece of Jiu-Jitsu content they've ever received, so I hope you like it too. Speaker 1: Hey everybody, welcome to BJJ Mental Models episode 386. I am Steve Kwan and BJJ Mental Models is your guide to a conceptual and intelligent Jiu-Jitsu approach. And I'm rolling again with Heather Morgan. Heather, how's it going? Speaker 2: Hey, I'm good. Thanks so much for having me on again. Appreciate it. Speaker 1: Love having you here. Now, many people are probably going to be familiar with you because you are all over the gram these days, but in case people didn't catch that or they missed our prior chat, why don't you go ahead and tell everyone who you are? Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm Heather Morgan. As you said, I post a lot on social media, so I guess some people would call me an influencer, although I don't really love that label because it feels a little, I don't know, it feels a little weird, but I do post a lot of technique videos online, but I originally, I started Jiu-Jitsu back in 2014 and my whole goal was just to be a competitor. So that's how I started out. I competed from like white to beginning of black belt and um, then I just started getting into teaching, I think maybe around purple brown and I had some injuries I dealt with, so I sort of pivoted into focusing more on teaching and it turned into me starting to post online and then it turned into this whole thing where we are now where I teach a lot of a lot online and I also teach in person here in San Diego at a gym in Ocean Beach. And it's called The Collective. So I teach in person, I teach online and I do still train and I'm toying with the idea of going back to competition, but I am very much uh focused on teaching as well. So I guess that's a little bit about me, I suppose. Speaker 1: Great segue too because we wanted to talk about teaching and some of your experiences here today. You had a great discussion with me prior to hitting record about the importance of the teacher bringing the style out of their students and helping them develop their own Jiu-Jitsu style. I'd love to maybe hear you explain that and maybe the best place to start is what does your teaching look like today? How is that going and how did you evolve and get to the place where you are now to have this conversation? Speaker 2: Yeah, so I feel like I'm always kind of just trying to learn how to do something better. I definitely was like that when I was approaching my own training. I just wanted to learn as quickly as I could in the most efficient way possible and I feel like that's transferred over to my teaching style as well is just trying to be the best teacher I can be. So I've sort of shifted my energy more into that and um, I think, you know, in order to do that, you have to always be open to learning different styles of teaching. If you see someone else doing something well, you got to, you know, see see what's up, dive into it and see what maybe you can learn from it. I think it's it's always a constant learning process. Like by no means am I the best at it or like I don't I don't I definitely don't know everything, but I'm always trying to, you know, get better and learn from other teachers who I respect and I feel like are doing a good job and just sort of mixing different styles if need be just to give my students basically the best experience and to learn Jiu-Jitsu in the best way. And I feel like for me like the thing that I I love about Jiu-Jitsu, well, there there's many things, but one of the thing I really love about it is that everyone can have their own unique style and it really is an art form and um, I don't know, you know, you just look at everyone's like basically getting to really do kind of a self-exploration of their own Jiu-Jitsu and what they like and you start to see them developing their own game and I think it's very exciting to see a student sort of coming to their own and I feel like as a teacher, I'm just there to help guide them into their own exploration of Jiu-Jitsu and just kind of be the curator of them discovering themself and in no way am I trying to like force them into a certain style, which I think sometimes can happen, you know, a coach is like the best at half guard and so all their students are just like many carbon copies of them and I don't know, I feel like they're not getting to see their full full potential of what maybe they would want to become. So I really feel like it's it's a balance of like, you know, sharing your style and what works for you, but then giving them the freedom to kind of take it and run with it. Speaker 1: I'm becoming aware that sometimes us old people use terminology that maybe we don't explain well enough. Um you talked about the idea of a Jiu-Jitsu style. We've had a bunch of conversations recently about Jiu-Jitsu game planning and it's become obvious that for many people they've heard the term, but no one's ever sat them down and explained to them what is a Jiu-Jitsu game and how do you think about that. So I should ask you before we go further, when you talk about a Jiu-Jitsu style, what is a Jiu-Jitsu style and what does that mean to you? Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think there's like, I don't know, I think there's a couple ways you can look at it. Like I know when I was a competitor, I sort of like started to develop my own style by just paying attention to what I gravitated towards. So I'll kind of go into style first and then sort of maybe veer off into game plan, but I feel like as far as style, this can be like an overwhelming thing to I think delve into initially because there's so many moves in Jiu-Jitsu. So I think for me the way I sort of approached it or at least how it happened to me is uh just seeing like, oh, I like to play this type of guard and I like this sweep. So it's like, okay, I'm building it off of basically one technique from bottom initially where like, okay, I like spider guard and I like to hit this sweep. How can I get back to this position I really like from everywhere. So it turned into me just like learning a bunch of entries into it, learning how to get back to it. And then off of that, it's like, okay, I tried this sweep, I got there, but then it didn't work, right? Because many times, you know, things don't go as planned with Jiu-Jitsu. So then it started to turn into, okay, if I go for this and then they do this, then I'll do this. So it's like kind of that tree is starting to sort of branch out a little bit and then I think as I learned more and more Jiu-Jitsu, I found more positions that I really liked and so I started developing like a De La Hiva game and the things I like to find from there and then how each one connected to the other. So I think initially it starts out very small. You have a just a position that maybe you just did this sweep one day in class and you really, really liked it and then it sort of like branched off from there and then that's kind of where your game starts to come in because you have this thing that you really like. And then or your style, I should say. And then you can do this on top too. For me it was definitely the knee cut on top. That's like that's my jam. We talked about that last time. But for me that was like my starting point with passing and um, then it turned into, okay, if I can't knee cut, what do I do next? And then branching off from there. And then a game plan I think can be very similar to this wherein like, okay, I'm going to go compete and I really like to play guard and I really like to do this sweep. So maybe my game plan is, let's say for example, you really like closed guard. So maybe my game plan is to pull guard, get to closed guard and try this sweep and then if it doesn't work, I have this. It doesn't work, I have this. Um, so you sort of have that plan and then you kind of have to be prepared for whatever though. So sometimes like, okay, what's my plan if I don't get the guard pull, right? So then it's like if they pull, I'll go into my knee cut pass or I'll, you know, force some position that I'm good at passing from. So it's like kind of like your game plan is a loose plan just to sort of guide into your your style or your game that you enjoy playing. But I think this also is like something I've been thinking about too is like how to have a plan but be flexible. I think it's like a a delicate balance. I mean, everything is like a parallel to life almost. It's like you kind of have to be like that with life too, right? Like have a plan but be flexible or else it's going to get, you know, you're going to have a hard time. So I think Jiu-Jitsu is similar to that too wherein like you want to have a game plan, but you don't want to get so hyper focused on the plan that you don't realize it's not working anymore and you need to veer off into something else. So I think it's it's a balance for sure between the two. Speaker 1: Yeah, we've talked before about layering strategy and having a core for your strategy that should be mostly unchangeable and consistent and that's kind of more around the the general idea of what you want to achieve and maybe why you want to do it. But the specifics of how you do things can and should be adjusted on the fly. If you go into any sort of competitive endeavor with a very fixed game plan about exactly how you think things are going to go and specifically what techniques and sequences you want to do, you're going to have a bad time because you're going to find out that you don't get put into those positions and those situations to do those things. So when you build a strategy, the core of the strategy needs to be mostly solid and something that you can rely on almost like a compass to to steer you, but the specifics need to be things that you can swap in and out. And I think where people can get messed up with creating their own style is they get really attached again to to one specific move. Now, that is that is important for getting the ball rolling. Like you said, when people start off, often when their first style or game plan comes about because there's one move they really like and they're really good at and that kind of becomes the beginning of the evolution of their game plan and they bolt more things on to it and that's great. But if your entire game plan is completely dependent on one specific move, what if the situation to use that move never comes up? So that's when you need to start thinking about, okay, what truly defines my style? I put a lot of thought into this myself, especially as I got older. What does my style look like? And I realized for me personally, it's not about specific moves, but it's more about my philosophy and goal for Jiu-Jitsu. My goal has always been, I want a game that works well against everyone, works well in all rule sets and is safe on my body. It's low risk. And that game, that style is not going to work for everyone. I mean, if you were to try to win an ADCC World Championship, you'd probably have to throw that particular game plan or style out the door because you've got to take some risks and you've got to do things that are specific to that rule set. But for me, as someone who just trains this for fun, those are my goals. And everything that I do, every technique I try to learn, I look at through the lens of those factors. Does this technique jive with the type of Jiu-Jitsu that I want to be practicing? But that's just me talking about my own Jiu-Jitsu. It gets different when you as the coach are trying to lead along these impressionable people who are discovering things on their own. What does that look like? Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. And like, I think I've had a lot of different like thoughts on what you're talking about. Like, I think initially I felt like when I was competing maybe like white, blue, purple, I felt like I had to like be very hyper focused on like, I only play this guard. But it's like, you're right, if you you are too hyper focused on one thing and you don't develop other parts of your game, if you're taken out of that, you're in trouble, you know? Or I've had like back when I was blue belt, it was like I was trying to remember like, remember every specific move, you know, rather than just like going out and fighting and trusting my Jiu-Jitsu. So it's like, yeah, it's delicate for sure and kind of just bringing it back to like students. Um, yeah, I think this is like just the one of the jobs of the coach is to get to know your students, right? Everyone's got their own individual goal and it's it's going to, yeah, it's going to be different for everyone and I think I want to help, you know, help them discover what their goal is and also just be aware and ask the right questions and watch them during training and so sometimes what I'll do in my classes is like we'll do some like very specific positional and then I'll do a couple rounds of positional where they get to pick the position they want to start in. So this kind of gives me an idea of what they like, what they want to work on, what they feel they need to work on, so I can learn a lot that way or just, you know, asking them questions and what their goals are. I think it's important just to, you know, build that relationship with your student and get to know them as a person and know what their goals are. And even know their limitations. I mean, a lot of my students like, I think, yeah, all of them right now, I mean, they like to compete, but they're I guess what you'd consider hobbyist, which means, you know, they do a different job during the day. So they just come in and train as much as they can and I think that's super admirable because I see them coming in and training a ton and then they still want to compete. So they're they're juggling a lot of things and they have a limited amount of time. So I think it's just important to know like they only can train this amount every week. So you got to give them like a a good efficient class for them to get the most out of it and yeah, so I think it's just I think it's getting to know your students and their goals, just chatting with them and building that relationship. Speaker 1: I love this because when we talk about coaching, we tend to get hyper fixated on the motor learning and skill development side of things. And that's where, you know, the ecological approach and CLA come from, right? But there is so much to coaching that goes beyond just the technical instruction. And if it were me trying to give an answer here, I would say that the human side of coaching, the personal connection and the ability to reach and motivate someone is far more important than whether you are using eco or not. And I think this sometimes gets left by the wayside. There are great coaches out there who honestly aren't really following a a science-backed, evidence-backed approach or or anything really systematic, but they're just really good at connecting with their athletes on a human level. How do you do that? Especially when you've got a beginner who comes in, they're still trying to put together in their head what all of these positions and techniques are. What kind of questions or conversations would you have to get that information out of them so that you can better serve them and help direct them in the right path? Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. Like it's I feel like it's the person first and like, yeah, the better you get to know them, the better you can be a coach to them and like help them learn in the way they need to learn. I would say like, one thing I really think about, especially with a beginner who's coming in like their first day, they're usually super nervous. They maybe watched like 10 YouTube videos trying to figure out how to tie their belt. They're feeling very out of their element. They just are feeling out of place. So I feel like, especially for a day one person, I'm really focused on making them feel more comfortable and making them feel welcome and creating a learning environment where they don't feel stupid. Like I feel like many times we'll start explaining a technique or a concept and we'll like forget that we use lingo that only Jiu-Jitsu people know. So a day one person is going to come in, they're already like clueless, then they're hearing all these words they don't know. So now they're feeling clueless and dumb and like they're, you know, questioning whether or not they can do it. So I think it's just making sure you strip all that down and you make them feel like they can do this and they can understand this. So you you explain it in a way that makes them feel capable and not like dumb and you and explain it in a way that's just like easily digestible. Like if I'm explaining a technique and I see that they understand it right away and they're like, oh, yeah, that's simple. That's I get it. Like I can do that for sure. Then I know I explained it in a way that I guess empowered them to realize like they're human, I'm a human and they have the ability to learn this thing and they're they're capable of doing it. So I think it's just creating a learning environment where they feel capable and I don't know, I guess it's a positive learning environment too because I feel like if it's not, then it's much harder for them to learn. You start to see students who are like too hard on themselves, they like worry about losing or, you know, and it's just that like that doesn't create a good environment for them to explore and for them to thrive and for them to feel capable and to, you know, they'll start having more negative self-talk and yeah, I think it's making the person feel comfortable and capable. Speaker 1: I really like what you just said about making sure your students don't feel stupid because that is so important. Establishing this sense of psychological safety in the room where people are okay feeling vulnerable, they don't feel embarrassed making mistakes or losing. I think this is a big change in the way that Jiu-Jitsu has been presented, especially in the past few years. Coming up, man, almost 20 years ago, Jiu-Jitsu was presented much more as this fight sport and it it's intended to be provable and effective and it's all about winning and losing and, you know, training hard and that sounds great, but it can encourage this kind of mental inflexibility where people are afraid to put themselves in vulnerable positions or talk openly about what they want or question the structure of things and I don't know if that really serves people. Whereas if you can create that rapport with people and get them to come out of their shell, tell you who they really are and what they really want and need, it gets a lot easier to serve them as the teacher. Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I think the old school style like there's definitely a lot of really toxic things that have happened in the past and maybe some schools are still like this, um, but I definitely feel like there's starting to be a shift. But yeah, a lot of like just not being uh, I don't know, not being a teacher who's just encouraging, but kind of making them feel bad for asking a question and like you said, it's like a sink or swim kind of mentality where it's like you just get beaten down for a long time, then you finally get better and like you just got to survive that and I don't feel like it needs to be like that. But I I do feel like, of course still I want everyone to train hard and like I still think winning is important, you know, so it's not like a total like, oh, we got to be soft and kind to our students and like, you know, not train too hard. Like it's not that. It's it's creating an environment where it's fun and safe to train hard and I don't know, it's not like a a negative experience for them and it brings out the best in everyone. Speaker 1: So how do you how do you do that? Because you have to kind of have a bit of a radar to detect what's going on in the room and read people emotionally. That can be hard if you've got a decent sized class because you've got to keep eyes on everyone and then try to infer what they're struggling with and how they're feeling about things. I agree with you completely that fun is tremendously important. I think it's undersold as not just a benefit, but a core driver of the sport. If people are not having fun, they will not stay around and train for a long time. I don't care how serious they are about wanting to be a world champion. If people aren't enjoying this, eventually that's going to catch up with them and they're going to burn out and leave. So by keeping it fun, you keep people engaged. That's really the key to long-term retention and long-term development of athletes and students. But how do you as the person running the class identify who's kind of struggling and who maybe needs a little bit of help? Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's that's such a like a complex question, I suppose. I think it's the style of training you do. So I think it's like creating an environment where losing is like not a bad thing, but it's a good thing because you're kind of mapping things out and you're just creating, you know, getting more information and you're able to try things and to explore. So I think it's the style of like games and positional training you do that, you know, like a lot of times what I'll do is I'll create a positional training and when you lose, you'll just switch top to bottom. And so it's like you're switching positions often and so it's not like you're, I don't know, sometimes in regular rounds, you don't want to try something because if you mess up, you get like punished for it, you know, so you're like, oh, I tried this thing and now I'm in side control and like now I'm just struggling in side control for the rest of the round. So I think it's like the games, you can create this environment where everyone's excited to like try different things. And I think you can kind of see like when a student is maybe overthinking and getting down on themself, like one thing I'll notice is like if we're drilling a technique back and forth, like a student will maybe mess up one little detail and then just stop the technique completely and not even finish it. And I always try to address this and be like finish the rep, you know, just like go all the way through it. Don't like it too, you know, bog down with like, oh, I did this one thing incorrectly, I got to stop the whole thing. Like because I mean, it's kind of conditioning them to in live training, like they miss one little thing and they just think the technique doesn't work where really like you can still make it work. But I think it's also more importantly like just teaching them to not overthink it too much and just to finish the rep and then, okay, like I missed this thing, so let me just do it on the next one. So it's it's making it like a less of a big deal when something's missed. Not that like the detail doesn't matter, but more just not overthinking it too much, I suppose. And like making sure they're not too down on themselves for like missing one thing. Like, oh no, it's cool. It's like it's fine. Just make that adjustment. Like you're still learning it basically. Like normalizing that like it's going to feel weird and that's okay. Your body hasn't done this movement. So just keep working through it and it's going to smooth out, you know? Speaker 1: I know you've been using the constraint-led approach recently and one of the things that the CLA folks are really good about is what you just discussed, making sure that people are getting maximal training time in. That's really a key distinction between that approach and I guess the more traditional sermon on the mount approach where the teacher lectures everyone. The goal of a more modern training room is to try to maximize practice, maximize time training relevant skills. And you brought up a great hurdle to that, which is when people start getting in their own heads because they feel like I'm not doing it right. And so they like try one rep and it doesn't work amazingly and so they kind of slow down a bit and they stop and they're thinking about it too much and they're trying to pause and just get it completely right or they abandon it. And what actually works much better is to just get more reps. If it doesn't work right the first time, okay, we just try again. We just keep spending time practicing rather than getting in our own heads about what isn't working. That is something that I observe with people who are really good at Jiu-Jitsu is they're willing to just throw themselves in there and just try stuff and they don't overthink it. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't, but they just keep practicing it and keep trying. Whereas for people who are maybe more on the over-analytical side and I would include myself in the in that category, it gets too easy to really start beating yourself up about, okay, am I doing it right? Am I missing a step? Wait, wait, where did coach say to put my knee? What am I supposed to do here? And it turns out that the more you try to perfect the rep you're doing, the slower you go and the less actual reps you get. And the best thing for you if you want to get better is to just keep doing the reps. If it's not perfect, okay, that's fine. We just keep going. We do it again, we do it again. So I'd love to hear from your perspective how psychologically you apply that in the training room. I again, a big part of this is being inside the student's head, which is not easy to do. But if you see someone who's struggling like that, how do you kind of bring them out of that shell? Any advice you've found that works well for getting people to be more to engage more and not try to be so perfect about everything? Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think there's multiple layers to this. And this is something I'm still like, I test things out when I'm teaching all the time. I'll take notes on like a class and how I ran it and how I feel like it worked. So I'm like constantly doing things differently, gathering more information. So it's like something I'm still trying to figure out because it's like I notice a couple things. Like, I notice it can be super helpful to like teach a technique step by step because it's teaching them like an efficient way of doing this movement that, you know, otherwise it would take them a long time to figure it out. So I'm like sort of fast forwarding their, you know, skill level by giving them like, hey, this is a really efficient way to get this done, to solve this problem. So it's like, going by step by step is helpful, but then, yeah, you get people who are now overthinking the details. So it's like, okay, how can we teach them this, but then like simplify it back to like, yo, I'm teaching you this way of doing it, but the goal is just for you to pick up the leg and stand and put them on their back. So it's like, this is a way you can do it, but just know that your basic goal is just to get on top. So like, if you can do it this way, great, but don't lose sight of just your simple goal in this situation. So I think it's like teaching it, but then I guess reminding them of their basic goal so they don't get married to doing it a specific way. If they can do it a different way in the moment that works, then they're accomplishing the goal and that's great. So this is something that I I do think about a lot, just sort of how to give them details and teach them a technique, but not let them get too hyper focused on like I have to do it this specific way. So I think, yeah, I think teaching them the technique in a way where they really understand it. So they're not just memorizing the steps. Like I compare it to like, um, like when you're in college and you I say this because like I hated college and I was always studying at the last minute. But basically you have this like comprehensive test at the end of the semester and you maybe didn't study as much as you should. So like you're trying to just cram for it and memorize everything, but you don't actually understand it. So you go to the test and you just feel like all the knowledge is just like falling out of your brain and you're like, uh, I don't know, like and you you don't have the like critical thinking skills in the moment to just be like, oh no, I get this concept. So like I can figure out the right answer, right? I feel like that happens a lot with Jiu-Jitsu where like the teacher is just giving you the steps to memorize and you don't actually understand it. So I think you give them the steps, you make sure they understand it so that in the moment when they need to use it, they can on the fly like still make it work and make changes where needed, rather than being like trying to make it work in a a certain way. They can like make the right decision in the moment. So I think, yeah, when you're teaching the technique, just making sure they really get what the goal of the technique is, get when they should use it and like how they should use it. And then if the student is still really overthinking, I think creating some type of like game where you're just working on one specific part of it. So they are forced to just work one thing and not overthink the whole thing. So I think this is where like a lot of the CL games I unknowingly was kind of using, but now I'm like sort of diving in just to see what more I can learn from it because they've refined a lot of this. But basically just taking a certain skill and still having resistance, but in a way where you're only having to kind of focus on one thing at a time. So you're just developing one part of the technique, rather than like having to deal with all these different things. So I think the that can force the person to simplify the technique and really, I don't know, learn it, but not get overwhelmed with all these different factors. And then once they're ready, you can kind of add everything back in. I don't know if that I kind of started rambling for sure on that one. But it's hard, it's a hard question to answer because there are a lot of levels to it. And I think that is why so many people are like bouncing back and forth between different uh styles. It's hard to really like land on one because I think there's benefits to like all of them really. Speaker 1: I love how you brought up one of my favorite examples, which is the taking of a test. I think I think many of us are still traumatized from exams back in our college and university days. Speaker 2: Myself included as well. Speaker 1: And I've said before in this podcast that the way that people study for tests is often not conducive to learning. Like you said, the goal is to get as much information into your head in this short period before the test and then go to the test and basically vomit it all up onto the paper like a mother bird feeding her children, right? Speaker 2: Exactly. Speaker 1: And then you completely forget about it afterwards. So it rather than focusing on developing a skill or acquiring knowledge on a more permanent basis, you're optimizing for this one particular performance. And I think with Jiu-Jitsu, you see similar things where if people look at Jiu-Jitsu as this high stakes fight, then they're going to be less inclined to be experimental. They're going to be more afraid of making mistakes. They're not going to feel that psychological safety that you need in order to explore and try new things. Really, it's all about psychological safety and making the people in the room feel like they can try things. And so you brought up a great example. If you can re-scope the training so that it's no longer an open roll, but now it's a targeted skill development game, then it doesn't feel like a fight anymore and that can help a lot of people. I think that's one of the reasons why CLA is really good because if you and I just roll, right? We're just having a a match effectively. Even if it's a casual match and it's in the gym and you know, we can talk about how, oh, we're just playing around. At the end of the day, if the goal of this game that we're playing is I pin you and I submit you or you do it to me, it's a match, right? And we can talk about how it's a casual match or it's just in the gym. But the goal is still to win. It's still a combat sport. If you re-scope that into a specific game, like a grip fighting game, then it doesn't feel like it's a fight anymore. And that turns off that light switch in people's brains where they think, oh man, this is a high stakes fight environment. Now we're just doing a silly grip fighting game. And when you take out that fear of this other person's going to double leg me and smash me and pass my guard and choke me and now instead we're just focusing on a micro part of the game, it's a good reframing tool for people that makes them feel more safe in the moment. And I think that's why so many people enjoy CLA because it takes that performance pressure out of Jiu-Jitsu and just lets you focus on the skill. Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I agree 100%. That's definitely why I really love it. I think it should be gamified. Like Jiu-Jitsu is supposed to be fun. That's what I always say. Like Jiu-Jitsu is supposed to be fun. You're going to train better if you're having a good time. It's I mean, I think it's good to gamify it. I think uh, I can even notice it with my students. I can tell they fight better when they know their goal and they're just having fun with the game. Like they're doing a lot of things naturally. They're just you can tell like you can tell when they really understand what they're supposed to be doing. And it's really cool to see because they're doing Jiu-Jitsu just naturally and it's it's like you can tell they're not overthinking. Like you can really tell when this is like going well and you've uh made the game clear and both people are, yeah, both people are just focused on the goal and they're not really worried too much about winning or losing, but as a result because they're not like worried about it, they're they're doing really well. And they're having fun. Like when they lose, they're like, oh, you know, like you got me. And then they switch position and then it keeps going. And now it's like the they're on bottom or whatever they the task is switched, but they're uh they're still having a good time because they're like, okay, now I got to try to do this. So, yeah, you can really tell when they're just having a good time and and it's much easier to win when you're having a good time. I feel like, you know, because you're not having all that negative self-talk and uh you don't have all these extra like, yeah, thoughts going around in your head and you are like you said, you're ready to just try different things and then, oh, that didn't work. Uh got that info. Next time I'll try something different, you know? So you're you're exploring and learning in real time and if you run a class really efficiently and well, you can see after the hour that their skill in this one area has just gone up so much, which feels good as a coach to see, but it's also feels good for them and that'll get them coming back because, you know, it feels good to get better at something. So if you can make it really efficient and they at the end of class can just see like, wow, I got way better at this thing. Like I am getting better. I think that's always important too. Like they should walk away from the class feeling like they really got a good hard session and they really improved and I don't know, I think sometimes I'm kind of kind of veer off a little bit, but just follow the strain of thought. I think at first when I first started teaching, I tried to teach kind of too many aspects at once and um, I was trying to like fit too much into a class and improve too many things in one technique or maybe trying to show too many different like variations of a technique. And I've kind of honed it down a little bit to having just one specific focus for a class and it really helps you kind of develop a class in a more efficient, organized way when you have a better idea of like, okay, today, we're going to make sure they improve on, I don't know, whatever it may be, like double sleeve guard. Well, yesterday I was teaching stack pass. So the goal was just to get them to defend and like get better at getting double sleeve guard. So I feel like if you have a really specific goal for the class, you can better hone in on it and make sure by the end of the class, they really do feel like they got better at that because, I don't know, you have to assume that like the only training they're doing is in your class and you can't assume they're just doing all this extracurricular work where they're like studying and doing this drilling and stuff. So I want to make sure I'm like giving them the tools to get better at it just in the classes they're coming to. I feel like that's my job as the teacher is to to teach them to Jiu-Jitsu, right? Like it's great when they do outside work and of course they're going to get better faster, but they should be developing all these skills of Jiu-Jitsu just by coming to class. Speaker 1: A lot to unpack there that I think is really worth digging into though. But the big thing that you brought up is we need to assume and expect that for many people, their only exposure to Jiu-Jitsu is what happens in the class. Yes, there are people who take Jiu-Jitsu far more seriously and maybe they either want to do it professionally or they just train a ton, they study a ton and these people are augmenting their Jiu-Jitsu outside of class. But for a lot of your students, they just want that experience of like, I come to class and you give me some Jiu-Jitsu. I've been saying this since the first episode of BJJ Mental Models way back in whenever that was, like the Speaker 2: Long time. Speaker 1: It was pre-pandemic. It was a long time ago. But I've been saying that for a long time that we need to bear in mind for a lot of us who put a lot of time and effort into the sport, we have trouble relating to the fact that for many people, they just want to come in and train once or twice a week. And you've got to be able to serve them and get them better. If your stance as a coach is, no, you need to be studying a ton, you need to be augmenting your training, you need to be cross-training, you need to be competing. You've already disqualified like 90% of your students because ultimately at a gym, you're a service provider. Your job is to teach these people. And if your answer is, well, no, actually, you guys have to go off and teach yourselves, then you're not really training them the way that is relevant to their goals, right? I mean, a lot of people they come in once, twice a week, they're not looking to be world champions, they're not looking to be world beaters. They just want to get in shape and learn how to defend themselves or maybe learn a cool skill or just do something that's more interesting than lifting weights at the gym. That was a big part of why I like Jiu-Jitsu. I find weightlifting to be tremendously boring. I find cardio to be tremendously boring. Jiu-Jitsu is never boring. So that's why I like it, right? I have no interest in being a world-class competitor. I don't even have any interest in competing. So it's been a challenge for me to get on the same page as instructors who can't pull themselves out of their worldview and understand that people like me don't want to do all of this stuff. I'm not going to go home and spend five hours watching BJJ Fanatics instructionals. And, you know, is that going to prevent me from becoming a world champion? Of course, but I don't care. That's that's never been my objective. So I think that the big thing I'm taking from what you're saying here is empathy, right? A coach needs to be empathetic. They need to be able to not just teach to people, but also understand what their goals are and feel them as if they were their own and think about what it would be like to be that person and how you can still help them. Because one of the coolest things about Jiu-Jitsu is it is great for pretty much anyone, regardless of how much you train. I mean, if you are a 70-year-old senior citizen, you're probably not going to get a lot out of training amateur wrestling. But Jiu-Jitsu is always there. Almost everyone can get something out of Jiu-Jitsu regardless of their life circumstances or their age or their capabilities. But it is on the coach to create a space where students can become that thing. They can evolve into that version of themselves on their own path. Speaker 2: Yes, 100%. I totally agree. Yeah, and I mean that's it's difficult to do that because you do have a lot of different people who have different goals, but I 100% agree. I think a lot of instructors maybe, I don't know, maybe people get mad at me saying this, I'm not sure, but I think a lot of them are very lazy and I think a lot of them are selfish and they aren't thinking outside of like what their goals were and how they did it and um, they're not thinking about what the student maybe needs and they're just, yeah, they're being lazy and asking the student like to do their own work with this, which is I feel like unfair. I mean, they're paying you to, you know, you're the one who's helping them along their journey and um, yeah, I I think it's like you should be doing that, right? And you should be doing your due diligence to be always uh learning and trying to improve your own craft of teaching. Yeah, I think it can be hard, you know, to think outside yourself and like put yourself in the other person's shoes for sure, but because I mean, I definitely like started out as a competitor and then once I started teaching, I had to have the same shift of like, okay, they have this amount of time. Like this is their goal. They obviously want to get as good at Jiu-Jitsu as they can and I need to, you know, help them along that journey, but like this is their hobby and it's so cool that they're like coming in as much as they can and dedicating this much time. Like that's super admirable when they have like kids and a job and I like respect it like crazy, you know, because like they have their own separate struggles just to get into the gym. So I want to make sure I'm showing up as much as I can to make sure they get the most out of their training and they reach their goals with the Jiu-Jitsu. So I think, yeah, it's definitely like it's you're serving them. It's a selfless kind of thing. Like you don't want to be focused on yourself. You're there to, you know, kind of serve them and make sure that they're getting the most out of it. Speaker 1: I want to expand on something that you said there. You talked about how it may not be a popular thing to say, but a lot of coaches are just lazy. And I agree with you completely. A friend of the show, Greg Souders, famously gets people mad at him because he says this same thing, right? He tells people, you guys are being lazy coaches. And people say, how dare you? And you know, he gets a lot of crap for this. But I think part of the reason why people get so mad at him is because they know it's true. Speaker 2: Yeah, the people who are getting defensive are the ones who have an issue. Yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah. And I know it doesn't feel to these coaches like they're lazy because they're training hard. They're on the mats all the day. How could they be lazy if they're training so hard? But where I think the disconnect is is once you get to be a decent coach, you understand your personal ability to perform has nothing to do with your skill as a coach. I mean, yeah, maybe you're training tons. Maybe you're watching tons of instructionals. Maybe your Jiu-Jitsu and your knowledge is getting a lot better. But unless you can make the people in your room better, you're not a great coach. And it doesn't matter how many instructionals you watched or how many world championships you've won. So I do think there is this disconnect where coaches think that, well, just because they're getting better personally, that means they're getting better as a coach. And that is absolutely not the case. Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a huge difference between like you and your students. It's not like being good at Jiu-Jitsu and being a good teacher mutually like they're going to go hand in hand, you know? That's actually a very hard I think combination to be like the best Jiu-Jitsu athlete and the best teacher. Yeah, it's really about like how you can pass that knowledge down to your students. And I agree with him. Like I listen to a lot of his stuff actually. I've been like learning so much from his coaching style. I think it's super cool. Like I would love to go train with him honestly and just not only for the Jiu-Jitsu, but just to see his teaching style. Like I think it's really cool. But like I said, it's it's not a selfish thing, right? You can't just be working on your own game. Like the point is for you to to show up for your students and to know how to pass that knowledge down to them and to help them with their Jiu-Jitsu and you have to do your due diligence to always be improving in your Jiu-Jitsu, right? So you can be up on like the things that are going on, like new techniques or things like that and also just being a better teacher. I think like with some, I was thinking about this the other day actually, like with a lot of professional endeavors, you have to do continuing education, like CEUs. I remember having to do that when I was um, a strength and conditioning coach. But like Jiu-Jitsu, we don't have anything like that. Like you just time and you get a degree and it's like, I don't know, it's it's interesting to think about. Speaker 1: Yeah, I've had multiple people tell me this and I can confirm that it's true. Now, once you get to black belt, getting promoted becomes the easiest thing ever because all you have to do is not die. If you continue to survive and not die, you will continue to get promoted. So when you see someone who's got eight stripes on their black belt, that's not necessarily something to be super impressed by just by itself. It could mean that they haven't evolved anything in years, decades even. So it is important to constantly be evolving and you're right that we don't really push ourselves in the sport to do that from a coaching perspective. I do have something I want to ask you. We've talked about changing the culture and reaching your students. And one of the things about Jiu-Jitsu is the the coach really matters in terms of how they present themselves to the room. I mean, of course we want to avoid a situation where students are overly deferential to the coach or where there's a big hierarchy. But the reality is these things do happen. They do kind of form on their own. If you walk into a class and you're the teacher and you're wearing a black belt and everyone else is wearing a white belt, they're going to look up to you and they're going to give you special treatment, no matter how many times you tell them like the belt doesn't matter. We're here to be peers, we're here to collaborate. It's hard for people to just take that instruction and roll with it. So actions matter. What the coach does to demonstrate that this is a like a safe environment where everyone can learn and have fun together, it matters. And I'd love to know what kind of signals you give off when you are the coach. What kind of body language or actions do you take to show the people in the room that like, hey, this black belt I'm wearing, it's not this magic thing. We're all peers here and we're learning together. What do you do to demonstrate that so that people don't fall into those hierarchy patterns that just seem to emerge? Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely do this and I'm trying to think of specific examples. I think I just try to be really approachable and just like let off the vibe of like, yo, I am the expert here in this like little like this niche skill, but like I'm a person just like you. I don't know everything. I think just, yeah, I guess like we're all just still humans, you know, like I know more and I'm like leading you through this journey. I'm the instructor, but like I mean, you know more about other things, you know, like I'm not an expert in everything and I think just how you communicate with someone and see them as like still an equal, even though you're like in charge and showing them something, there's a like respect you can give them and not like put them down. Like I don't like when people make comments of like, oh, well, you're just a white belt and like, like I don't know. I think there's like certain certain little phrases that can be said that sort of will put people down and I I guess I try to avoid making people feel bad for not knowing things. But then also presenting myself as like, I'm still constantly learning too. Like I don't know everything. I'm I have way more experience than you, but like I'm I'm always trying to learn how to do things better as well with teaching and with my own training. So I think just not seeming like I have all the answers to everything and just not being afraid of being wrong or not having an answer, like admitting that and I mean, it doesn't happen often, but like if I was in a class teaching and someone were to ask a question and I like don't know the answer, I would definitely admit that and just be like, oh, well like let's figure it out. Like I don't know. Let's see. Let's problem solve together, you know? I think just, yeah, see not putting yourself up on a pedestal, I guess and like still, you know, leading the class, but just I guess in a way that's I don't know. That's a good question. I I'd have to think about it more, but I guess those are it's like an internal thing I think about and I just try to be approachable and I think just developing a relationship with each of the students, you know, I just chat with them during the class like while we're warming up and ask them about things and so I think it's like, yeah, they see me as the expert, but like I'm approachable, I guess. And they don't feel bad to like ask a question or to not know something. Speaker 1: One thing that I like to do, especially as I get older and I'm much more averse to injury and risk is I like to throw people's expectations out the door right away and sometimes if I worry that people are just getting a little bit too hierarchical, I will deliberately throw a round. So I'll roll with someone who's like a white or a blue belt and I'll just lose, right? Because that is such a pattern interrupt. This is the opposite of what people expect to happen. The culture of Jiu-Jitsu is often that like, oh, a black belt, a white belt should never beat a black belt. And the end result is you get these white belts who go way too hard against black belts because they feel like they've got something to prove. And then you've got black belts who now have to defend themselves from this crazy lunatic white belt and I don't think that creates a great psychologically safe learning environment. So something that I like to do is just create a pattern interrupt and disrupt people's expectations and throw that all on their heads, right? If you spar with a white belt and you just go casual and light and you tap to them, that immediately throws all of that shit out the window. And now the person's going to be like, well, what do I do now? This didn't go the way that I thought and they're going to have to stop and rethink exactly how that roll is going. And I find that once you make the scary thing happen, which is like tapping to the lower belt, once that's out of the way, it's easier to shelf your ego and just have fun in the class, just get back, you know, to doing Jiu-Jitsu the way that we've talked about here where it's a collaborative fun environment of peers. Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. And like now that you say that, I for sure do that too. And knowingly, but also like, I'm small. So like I'm very used to losing to like people who are lower belts because they're just so much bigger than me. Like, yeah, I'm a black belt. I can do a lot, but like there is something to like size, you know, like I could have a lot of technique, but if they really like are bigger than me, it's it's going to be hard. So I think that's something that like, it actually bothered me for a long time because I was like, I'm the black belt. I want to beat up everyone. It's bothering me that I can't like, I teach a class and I can't beat up everyone. But that's kind of something I had to deal with separately and know like it doesn't mean I'm not good at Jiu-Jitsu. It doesn't mean I'm not like the instructor. It just means like this is it, you know, like you are smaller than people and this is what will happen and it's okay and it doesn't like take away from you and what you know. And I think you're right, it does help with that like expectation and it creates a better environment and it's definitely like, yeah, I think the the style of games we play too, like you've got like a white belt and a blue belt or a white belt and a purple belt doing this specific task and they could get the better of you if it's like specific enough, you know? So it's like it kind of takes away that as well, I think, playing specific games and gamifying it. I think it helps with that too. Speaker 1: Yeah. I think you brought up a great point too about accepting that you're not always going to win. That for me was a big mindset shift when I got to black belt was realizing that, look, I don't have to win all the time. And in fact, I probably shouldn't be winning all the time because coming up, especially when you're at a lower rank, you often feel like, well, when I get to brown or black belt, I'll be able to tap everybody. But man, getting more experienced and getting older, the one thing that I've realized is, look, violence and fighting and combat are tremendously unpredictable. You cannot guarantee anything in a fight. If there's one lesson that I think people should take from Jiu-Jitsu after doing it for a long time, it is just the massive unpredictability of an actual fight. And look, if you care about self-defense, that's the reason why you should avoid fights unless absolutely necessary because they are so unpredictable. I mean, I've been injured rolling with lower belts because, you know, maybe I was technically, I thought I was in a safe spot, but they just did something dumb and it just did something to my body and now I'm injured because of it, right? So I am much more mindful now of the fact that, look, we are all fragile. We all have vulnerabilities and weaknesses and we shouldn't train like we're invincible because eventually we're going to prove ourselves wrong. Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, how boring would it be if you got to black belt and you just never lost ever again? Like I wouldn't want to do that, you know, like it's there's got to be some challenge to it or else it gets boring anyway. So I mean, if you're winning every round, I don't know, that would be so boring. I think also the mindset shift that helped me was just knowing like, just because I lose, doesn't mean I'm not good at Jiu-Jitsu anymore, you know, like disconnecting from that and being like, oh, well, that happened or, you know, I'm not trying hard or I'm going against someone good, so it's going to happen or, you know, it's it's just, yeah, making it not such a like, it doesn't mean you're you've lost all your skill just because you lost one match, you know? And also like, sometimes you're going to want to work on something you're not good at. So like, I'll have rounds where I want to work on like, like half guard. I don't really play half guard a lot. I'm like, okay, I'm going to go with this blue belt and I'm just going to work on half guard. And I know like, I'm a black belt, but like in this position, I'm not necessarily like black belt level, you know, because I just haven't done it a lot. So it's like, I'm not going to feel bad if it doesn't go right, you know? Yeah, I think it's just letting go of that because it'll be more fun anyways and it's it doesn't have to be a big deal, you know, it doesn't have to like ruin your day. But at the same time, I mean, winning does feel good, so it is hard to like lose all the time for sure. So it's not like it doesn't matter. Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about what you're working on, Heather. I know you've got a lot on the go. Of course, you're teaching, so people can learn with you directly in person, but I know that you've also got a lot of online stuff. So if people don't have the benefit of being close to you geographically, they can still benefit from your knowledge online. Why don't you talk about where people can find you and what you're making? Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So I'm on Instagram. My handle is Heather_MorganBJJ. And in my bio, I've got a link to all my courses if you want to check those out. And then I'm also on YouTube. So I am trying to focus more on more long-form content and posting that up on YouTube. So you can find me on there as well if you want to like look at some of my free long-form content and um, I think I actually have a couple classes I taught up there too. So yeah, my handle is the same on YouTube. You can just search my name and I should pop up. Heather Morgan BJJ or Heather Morgan. And so you can find me on YouTube as well. Yeah, I'm just trying to post more long-form. I think I have some sparring on there too. And then I'm also doing more traveling this year. So if you want to book me for a seminar, you can email me at HeatherMorganBJJ@gmail.com. That's like my business email. And I also have a link in my bio on Instagram that's like a seminar application form. So you can do it that way as well. And I'm down to travel. I'm going to be in Ireland for uh a couple weeks in May. So I'll be out there teaching a little and just kind of bouncing around. And hopefully doing more road tripping, traveling. So hopefully that's coming up soon too. Speaker 1: Amazing. Heather, well, thank you so much for doing this. I will put links to all of that stuff in the show notes. So if you want to contact Heather and you missed what she just said, fear not. You can go to your show notes, open up your podcast player and go to, I don't know, description or notes or whatever it says and there should be some links that you can use to quickly contact Heather. I will also include links to our stuff, but we're easy to find. Everything we make lives at BJJmentalmodels.com. You can get all of the episodes of our podcast, both full-length episodes like this, plus our mini episodes that are just quick hits on important Jiu-Jitsu concepts. Those are all completely free as well as our newsletter, which has over 15,000 subscribers. I really think everyone should grab those resources and again, completely free. So BJJmentalmodels.com for all of that. And if you would like to level up with us, that's what BJJ Mental Models Premium is for. It's the world's largest audio library of Jiu-Jitsu master classes on strategy, tactics, concepts, mindset, philosophy. We're closing in on 700 subscribers. So I think one of the more dominant subscription sites in the world. And there really is nothing like it when it comes to Jiu-Jitsu. We do not focus entirely on video instructional, although that is a part of it. We focus on concepts and ideas transmitted through audio. A lot of people think, well, how can you learn, how can you get better at Jiu-Jitsu through that vehicle? My suggestion is try it and tell me what you think. The first week is free. And you can also go up to our coaching or business tiers as well. If you don't have access to high quality coaches directly at your gym who can review your rolls, doesn't matter if you're a competitor, a pro, or just someone who trains for fun. If you've got footage of yourself rolling, we can get that broken down and reviewed for you by really elite black belts and you will be amazed at how much value you get out of just having two or three minutes of your footage reviewed by a really attentive black belt who's good at coaching this stuff. It's kind of like having a a mini instructional made specifically about you, rather than someone else's game, it's specifically about you. And even just one or two of those sessions can help a ton. And we also can assist with business and marketing support. That's kind of the backbone of how we've built up BJJ Mental Models. So if you want to benefit from that, if you are a gym owner or a business owner and like so many of them, you suck at sales and marketing and product fit and you want help with that, shoot me a message or check it out on our website and I'll tell you more. All of that is at BJJmentalmodels.com. Hope to see you there. And check out Heather as well. Heather, thank you so much for coming by. I had a blast. Speaker 2: Yes, thank you so much. Me too. It's always a pleasure. Speaker 1: Always a pleasure for me too. Always a pleasure to have the listeners here. Thank you as well and we'll talk to you in the next episode.