Ep. 364: Staying Sane in an Insane Sport, Feat. Keith Krikorian

Speaker 1: Hey everybody, before we get started this week, I have huge news. She actually did it. We're pleased to announce that Beatrice Jin, top-ranked women's competitor in North America and long-time BJJ Mental Models premium community member has published her first ever course with us, exclusive to BJJ Mental Models. It's called Stop Being Nice. It's a three-part audio series designed to solve real mindset problems that regular folks experience in Jiu-Jitsu. If you struggle to be aggressive and competitive in Jiu-Jitsu, you'll find the solutions here. If you're already a BJJ Mental Models premium subscriber, you've already got access, and if you are not, good news, you can get it now and get your first week free. Go to BJJ Mental Models.com and check it out today. Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to BJJ Mental Models episode 364. I'm Steve Kwan. BJJ Mental Models is your guide to a conceptual and intelligent Jiu-Jitsu approach, and I'm here today with a first-timer. We've got Keith Gregorian on the line. Keith, how's it going, sir? Speaker 3: Uh, good, man. How are you? Speaker 2: I am doing well, especially well because I've been looking forward to this chat. I know why I have been, but for the listener's benefit, why don't you give yourself a quick intro in case they're not familiar with your work? Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'm a 10th Planet Black belt. I've been doing Jiu-Jitsu for probably around 15 years now. Yeah, I got my Black belt about five years ago under Richie Boogie Man Martinez. I trained out of 10th Planet San Diego. Um, I trained with guys you might have heard of like uh Geo Martinez, PJ Barch, Alex Grandy, he was in the last ADCC. You know, I trained with a lot of good dudes. I live in Southern California, so it's, you know, good Jiu-Jitsu is is plentiful out here. But yeah, I mean, I basically just have been doing my thing, you know, competing and uh building uh I guess like a how should I say, like a small name for myself on the competition circuit and now I'm trying to move more into the I would say like, you know, I'm still competing and I'm still really passionate about competing and uh have a lot of goals related to that, but I'm trying to do a lot more in the kind of like social media influencer space, um more transitioning hopefully into a coaching role someday and yeah, that's kind of where I'm at now. Speaker 2: Well, amazing, and that's as good a time as any to talk shop here. When we were trying to lay out a topic, you would suggested talking about how to maintain your sanity in a sport that sometimes attacks it quite a bit. And some friends of mine were saying, yeah, if you're going to talk to Keith, he's been on uh he's been talking about mental health a lot recently. That is always a hot topic here. And the thing that I love about this particular topic is there's so many different angles you can take with it. But I'll turn this over to you then maybe to introduce your thoughts on this. When we talk about staying sane in Jiu-Jitsu and what mental health means, why is this such a priority for you and how did that come about? Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think we live in like an increasingly chaotic world, right? And there's maybe a lot to focus on negatively and or worry about or, you know, just induces anxiety or whatever. And not many people have a release, right? Not many people have a community to fall back on. Not many people have, you know, uh strong friend groups or goals related to anything other than work. And that's a huge problem. And I've been there in my life, maybe, you know, not as much in my adult life, but when I was younger, for sure. I felt a little bit hopeless, the world felt scary and big, and, you know, I didn't really have the community to fall back on. So, finding martial arts and, you know, main a main community for me was Jiu-Jitsu, really like uh, you know, pulled me out of, I think, more negative feedback loops or just like thinking like general thinking. And what I realized was not only did Jiu-Jitsu give me something to focus on like while I was actually at practice, or even when I was like, you know, leaving practice and stuff, but it gave me something to look forward to. It gave me goals, whether they be back then, I didn't think about competing at all. I didn't think about do Jiu-Jitsu for a living. I just truly thought about like, oh, how am I going to hit this next move or how am I going to, you know, not get submitted as many times. And just that alone is like a distraction enough and I think a positive distraction enough that it can really change people's lives. And I think just that, just becoming goal-oriented and then combining that with a community of people that you see regularly and like pretty much universally in a similar position to you. I know that like we have Jiu-Jitsu as a whole is made up of many different types of people from the entire, I guess, just cultural spectrum. You know, there's doctors, lawyers, then there's also teenagers and fast food employees and people who work regular jobs or don't work jobs. Like there's just a a massive like melting pot of people involved. But I think we're all relatively similar in that we are all looking for something productive, something that is kind of outside the mold, something that we were called to by wanting to, I don't know, like I said, break the mold. Like I think everyone that does Jiu-Jitsu is a little bit free-thinking and I don't want to say independent, but like unique. And I think by finding that, people kind of can very quickly turn their life around. You know, and it's it's not like it's a one-stop fix, but it can be the like building blocks towards something very positive. Even if I see someone just do Jiu-Jitsu for a few months and then maybe they quit, maybe life gets in the way, whatever, I still see them reap at least a few benefits or like at least become a little bit more confident and a little bit more sure of themselves. At least they they took the step towards doing something kind of uncomfortable and difficult, you know. And then the people that stick with it forever. I've seen people change their entire lives. I've seen like people who would classify themselves as actual losers become Black belt, you know, I don't want to say world champions, but like high-level competitors or gym owners or businessmen and it's that's a really common story even, you know. And you just you wouldn't think that a sport like this could have that power, but it totally does. And I've seen it so many times that it's not just a like a fluke or a coincidence and I've obviously felt it in my own life, but I've seen it so many times to the point where I feel that it's, you know, something worth sharing to the masses and just telling everyone if there's something you feel is like missing in your life or you have like, I don't know, if you don't have like many goals or hobbies or a community or strong friendships, like Jiu-Jitsu is probably the sport for you, you know? Because we're all in that same boat. Everyone was there at one point and we're all looking to to welcome people and to help build on this community, you know? It's not like a sport where we're pretty like exclusive to outsiders, you know? Like I'd say, you know, generally trying to get people in the door, trying to get people to join and to, you know, like help, I don't know, just like either build class numbers or, you know, build a better community or build training partners. And so it's a really welcoming community, I would say, on the whole. Speaker 2: So why do you think that is? Because I agree with you. There is something about Jiu-Jitsu that I have found from my experience that makes it unique in this manner. I mean, I've tried a lot of sports in my life. I've never really been a like a sports guy. It's just not the thing that's interested me. So often I I bounce off them. Jiu-Jitsu is the only one I tried where it really stuck with me and resonated with me and became something that I became quite passionate about. Now, I'm always quick to point out because people do sometimes oversell the benefits of stuff like Jiu-Jitsu. Speaker 3: Sure. Speaker 2: I'm always quick to point out, although we talk about its therapeutic benefits, it's it's not therapy. Speaker 3: It's not therapy, yeah. Speaker 2: It's not a replacement for therapy or anything like that. Speaker 3: People confuse that all the time. It's crazy. Speaker 2: Yeah, but you have to admit, anyone who's been training this sport for a long enough time has to admit that anecdotally, we've all seen stories of people who have completely changed their life because of this sport. I can't cite a giant study on this because our sport is still small enough that really nobody's studying it to that degree. But every Jiu-Jitsu person that I have talked to can tell these stories of people who came in and completely changed their life. The reason why so many of us are spending time listening to Jiu-Jitsu podcasts like this is because it's something we care passionately about. I never felt this way about dodgeball or archery or even soccer, although I know a lot of people bond over that. There does seem to be something about Jiu-Jitsu that just it hits that nerve with a lot of people. What do you think that is that gives Jiu-Jitsu that unique property? Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's a really interesting point. I think there's a lot of things that relate to that or to that maybe point to why it's so unique. So, the first thing is like it's not something you typically think about a lot growing up, so it's just inherently different and unique. You know, we think about the sports that our parents put us into when we're younger is, you know, maybe it's, you know, basketball, soccer, football, random shit like tennis or swimming or maybe karate even. But those are all a little bit different in that there's it's many of them are team sports. Many of them involve a lot of, I'd say like almost like downtime or like, you know, times where you're just kind of standing around or you're like thinking about this goal that feels very obscure, which is either put a ball through a hoop or make it to a finish line or something like that. And that just feels a little unfulfilling, I'd say. But when you do Jiu-Jitsu, A, like you're constantly either thinking or learning or doing something, even if you're being completely defensive, like you're still doing something. Like there's not if you're, you know, in a baseball game and you're sitting standing in the outfield, it's like that's not the most fun thing to do as a hobby or a sport. But Jiu-Jitsu, it's like you can be there for an hour, you can train for 30 minutes and for at least that 30 minutes, you're going to be doing something the entire time. You're going to be working, moving, like thinking about like thinking really, you know, about either how to attack, how to defend, whatever. That's not really something that exists in too many other things. Like and I think this the sports that people do really bond over like and even soccer is a really good one. Those are very active sports. Like there are points in the whole entire match where you're running around the entire time. That's I think people really like that. And it's still community-based, right? Like you're there with, you know, either your friends or, you know, your team or whatever and it's like there's a team element to it. Jiu-Jitsu has that. It also has the benefit of being very active and being a little more, I don't want to call it cerebral, but like something that you have to think about a little more deeply. And the goals are really like obscure and abstract, which I think is cool to people because it doesn't put this like this ending to the the I don't know, I don't want to call it a game, but like the, you know, practice, the hobby. Like there's so much to build off. You're never going to purely you're like, you know, master anything. You're never even going to like win the thing that you're trying to, you know, even if you submit someone once in training, it's like, okay, that's great. You got to do it again, you know, you're just going to like slap bump and start again. And that's like, I think that's really cool for people. It's just this like thing that builds on itself and it doesn't really it's not really reliant on too much other than training partners and, you know, a gym. And math, it's not like super reliant on anything else. Whereas like maybe a football, basketball, these are just like very constructed and very dependent on, I don't know, just either a team or a league or, you know, something like that. And that's not maybe not as it is like people really enjoy it, right? And and I'm not knocking those other sports, but I just want to I guess emphasize how different Jiu-Jitsu is and like what it offers that not many other maybe sports or hobbies offer, you know, and it's just um it's almost like a we hear it called like human chess all the time. I think like that's a weird way of saying it, but it it does kind of illustrate the fact that it is like there's so many possible moves. It's something you really do have to think about. Even if like I said, even if you're being purely defensive, like you still have to think quite a bit. You're still doing a lot. And not everyone likes playing chess because we don't want to just sit there and maybe thinking. When you add in this like physical element and this like, you know, practical element as well. Like self-defense is incredibly practical. Or Jiu-Jitsu is incredibly practical in a self-defense kind of like capacity. People just tend to really, really enjoy it. And yeah, I don't know. It's unique for a lot of reasons, I guess, but like and I've thought about it quite a bit over the years, but yeah, I don't know. It just it offers a different set of goals than than most other sports or hobbies usually offer. Speaker 2: Yeah, you touched on a lot of things that probably contribute to why so many people fall in love with Jiu-Jitsu like that. One of them is just the the realness and the directness and the real-life applicability of the sport. When you try Jiu-Jitsu for the first time, you have no illusions that it feels like you're fighting for your life there. I mean, as you train longer, you realize, okay, this is just a game, but we've all, if everyone here who has trained Jiu-Jitsu at least once, then you have been through that first-time experience where it's really scary because it feels like you're in a fight. You've certainly, you're probably not used to having people get up in your face like that and try to pin you down. It's a very different type of experience. And you combine that with just like you said, the accessibility of it. Really all you need to train Jiu-Jitsu is a buddy and a soft floor. That's pretty much it. Whereas, I mean, as a Canadian, right? If you want to put your kid into hockey, you need hundreds of dollars. You need to register them into a team because there needs to be other players. You need access to a facility. You probably are going to need to start getting up at 4:00 in the morning to go and make it to those games. There's a high lift to a sport like that. And when you do play a team sport like that, sometimes it does kind of feel like you're just a cog in the machine, right? That's what a team sport is. You're just a piece of it. And it's easy if you're just dabbing into those sports for the first time to kind of blend into the background like a wallflower and never really blossom and kind of come out and make it your own. Whereas when you try Jiu-Jitsu, when you're sparring with someone else, you cannot hide, right? Like it's just you and that other person and you have to find a way to engage with this sport. And it's going to make you feel feelings, you know, the first time you get pinned down on the ground and someone's sweating in your face and you can't move and after, you know, the the 30th second you get stuck down there, it starts to feel hopeless and Jiu-Jitsu takes you on this whole emotional journey in a way that a lot of other sports don't. And I think that's kind of what makes it a little bit unique in that sense and maybe why so many people resonate with it. You know, if you just drop in and join a, I don't know, a recreational soccer league, but you've never really done soccer or sports before, not sure how easy it would be for you to just fall in love with it. But with Jiu-Jitsu, you really get the full dose the first time you come in and try it. And I think a lot of people, it's so different from anything they've done in their lives that it just it activates a lot of parts of their being that they've never activated before. Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 2: Yeah. I would want to maybe hear you talk about the different types of people that you've seen Jiu-Jitsu have these kind of positive impacts for. Any particular community or demographic that you think like, man, everyone in this group should at least try it? Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean, unathletic people, I think this is the definitely this this sport for them. I was never good at and I'm not even alone. I I know this is true for a lot of people like if you were never good at a sport with uh ball and hoop or, you know, like a ball and goal, like if your hand-eye coordination isn't necessarily the most amazing, if you're a general athleticism isn't amazing, this is probably the sport you want to try. And I mean, there's many reasons for that. I guess like to your point, like um this sport is like so involved just right away. You're going to be working with a partner or at least observing instruction and like, you know, learning pretty much instantly something you've probably never never seen before. Whereas like when you're throwing a a ball or you're catching a ball, it's there's only so many ways to do that and there's only so many times that you are doing that, especially in like a team environment. And I don't know, that maybe like what we already touched on, that doesn't speak to too many people, but something that like uh, yeah, Jiu-Jitsu maybe does differently or offers that's different is just like you're not reliant on just catching a thing or, you know, kicking a thing or like, you know, moving a thing like or, you know, rather uh like defending players or something, you know, you're focused on many like little details. And that I think is a little bit maybe easier for people to understand than just or like grasp onto than holding a ball or like, you know, the way to throw a a single item or or thing. And yeah, I don't know. I just notice a lot of times people that weren't like amazing at football, basketball, baseball, whatever. Those people or soccer, like those people typically, they will still do rec league, you know, type things in adulthood and it's it's super great for them, right? But there's so many people that were never really good enough or never like felt like super compelled to join those sports or continue doing those sports and they just kind of never really developed like another hobby. Like they don't even do like, let's say like like pickleball or something like that because it's still it's just like a it's a game that's maybe relying on hand-eye coordination. So, you see a lot of people that A, like didn't have like a super strong community coming up or like maybe just in high school or whatever or didn't feel connected to that community, you know, high school, college, or age, whatever, or even maybe if they're a little bit older and they're just work at a corporate job or maybe, you know, some other job that just maybe not as I don't know, it's not like a community of people that they they really resonate with or have like a whole lot in common with. Doing something like Jiu-Jitsu kind of just gives them, I don't know, something that they can they can do. You can learn how to place your hand here and frame across their shoulder or their body. Like these are all things that you can do. It's it's some people are better than others. I'm sure we we've all been there when we're showing someone like, all right, use your left hand to grab their right wrist. And that's maybe easier for some than others. But for the most part, people kind of understand that. And there's not as much like maybe talent isn't really the right word, but like maybe there's not as much talent involved in doing Jiu-Jitsu as there is in in other sports. I'm mostly speaking to like my own experience, I guess, like I was saying, doing a sport that involved, you know, doing so many sports. I mean, my parents signed me up for every sport under the sun when I was a kid. It was like the classic baseball, you know, soccer, what else? Like obscure things like tennis, water polo, swimming, just uh I can't even remember all the random sports they put me in, right? But none of them really ever spoke to me. And I don't know if it's necessarily because I wasn't amazing, didn't have amazing hand-eye coordination or whatever, but just like, I don't know, maybe didn't even feel connected to like the community either too, you know, if you're not like a star player or if you're not, you know, getting a lot of play time, it's like it's harder to feel like you're really involved in the sport. And so, yeah, I would say the two groups that I see kind of get the most benefit from Jiu-Jitsu are people who lack a community or did lack a community growing up or people who just generally weren't really great at any other sport. And like I said, this offers them something that some people build on slower than others, but a lot of people will take to relatively quick just because it's easy to just and it's not easy, but it's relatively more clear of a goal to wrap your arm around someone's neck, lock up a choke and then get a tap. That's a cooler kind of like um end goal and it's a cooler process, but it's also like relatively clear and it makes sense to people and it speaks to your kind of more primal nature, whereas I think a sport with like a a stick and ball or, you know, a glove and a ball or just cleats and a different size ball. They don't really speak to people as much, I think. Speaker 2: Yeah, there's also something direct about Jiu-Jitsu that I really love. I worked in corporate for many, many years and the thing about Jiu-Jitsu that really resonated with me was how immediate and direct everything was, all of the feedback that you got. And in Jiu-Jitsu, if I stick my neck out in the wrong place, you're going to make me pay for it in one second, right? So I immediately learn the consequences to my action and I I learn, well, don't do that, right? In the real world, you don't get that kind of feedback very often. I brought up this example before, but if you're a dick at work, you know, you might not find out that people felt that way about you until your next performance review 12 months from now. You might never find out at all, right? Because people might just to avoid politics and drama, they might just think, well, you know, Steve's an asshole, I'm just not going to deal with him. I could go through the rest of my life not knowing that I'm giving off these signals and I never improve because I never learn. In Jiu-Jitsu, you learn real fast and the feedback is direct and it's quick, right? So you get used to those quick feedback loops and to me where that was really helpful is unlike a lot of other sports, I couldn't really hide. I couldn't be avoidant. As you mentioned, if you're unathletic and you try basketball for the first time, you know, you're part of a team, you can run around a bit on the on the court, you can blend in a bit if you're doing it recreationally and just kind of fade into the background. No one's going to push you to really take a space on that team. No one's going to push you to come out of your shell and and claim your spot. Whereas in Jiu-Jitsu, as soon as you step on the mat, other people will engage with you. And for many people who are kind of maybe more on the on the wallflower side socially, it's a really great way to force them out of their shell a bit and to try things that feel scary at first, but then you realize real quick, these things are not nearly as scary as you you thought you were. So, I've heard many people say, you know, Jiu-Jitsu is a metaphor for life, which sounds like, you know, flowery Black belt BS that you say on the internet. But there is some truth to that. It teaches you at a very small scale a lot of emotional skills that you can use almost everywhere. And one of those is how to get into a new group, how to go outside of your comfort zone, how to put yourself in scary situations where you could fail and where the feedback is immediate. That's an experience that is increasingly harder to get in real life. Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd say like the one thing that Jiu-Jitsu does that is like, man, I just like I love this aspect of it is it teaches people how to confront their problems head-on. And it's kind of exactly what you said, like there is no hiding. This and it's not that people are trying to hide. It's just that if they do another sport or they just go through life, like there are times where you can really avoid your problems. There's, you know, there's a way to get around things in life. You can lie to yourself, you can lie to your family, you can lie to your friends, you can, you know, just not that anyone is inherently trying to lie, but they can avoid problems this way. And one thing that Jiu-Jitsu does is it it like you said, from the moment you get in the room, you're forced to engage. You're forced to be put you're on you're just immediately on the spot, right? You have to, you know, grab a partner, you have to drill the moves, you have to train with that partner. And like you said, there is no hiding on the mat. Even if, you know, no one is is necessarily watching, like uh there's, you know, million groups on the mat, you're just one of them. You still feel like you're facing this thing like completely head-on. And that's that's huge for people to feel. And that's not something you get very much in life. Like your friends and family often times humor you, you know? Your co-workers maybe aren't super direct or even close enough with you to be honest. But like Jiu-Jitsu and the sport is honest. Your coaches feedback most of the time will be honest because the proof is right there. Like you got your guard passed, here's what you need to do to fix it. Or, you know, you're you're getting submitted with the same move over and over. Here's how you're going to defend it. And that just resonates with people immediately, usually, because, you know, it's, yeah, it's just something that they don't get in many other aspects of life. And certainly not from many other sports. So, I really like what you said about it being direct and forcing people to just, like I said, kind of confront their their issues or and not not their issues, but the issue that is in front of them. And that I think extends to many other aspects of life for most people and, you know, I could speak to that myself. Maybe, you know, just in a way it's like taught me to be honest and to be with myself at least, you know? And with the people around me, hopefully, but mainly just like with myself, where where do I need to improve? Or why do I need to improve? And what am I doing that is or isn't leading to improvement, you know? And I think that's, yeah, it's just such a good skill or such a good thing to expose people to. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Something that I am a big believer in in Jiu-Jitsu is that it can scale to whatever you need it to be. And you talked earlier about how Jiu-Jitsu is a great sport for people who aren't athletic. I agree with that entirely. And the interesting thing is, it can be a very athletic sport. I mean, you look at high high-level Jiu-Jitsu, you got some you've got some great athletes there, although I agree that obviously our talent pool is not as deep as what you're going to find in something like gymnastics. The sport's just not big enough. But that tier does exist. However, there's no denying that in Jiu-Jitsu, people from all walks of life can come in and they can bend Jiu-Jitsu to whatever they want it to be. I mean, I have trained with grapplers who are missing an arm, grapplers who are missing a leg, very good Black belts and, I mean, man, you would not use the word disabled to describe these people, right? Like they have found a way to turn Jiu-Jitsu into something that works for them. With a lot of other sports, you age out of them eventually because the athleticism is there. You don't see a lot of 50-year-olds who are still doing freestyle wrestling. But, you know, you see a lot of older people in Jiu-Jitsu. I mean, one of my training buddies, I think, is getting close to 70 years old and he still beats my ass all the time, right? You can add or take away from the sport or adapt it to whatever you want. I mean, I know that you uh you know one of my good buddies, Jeff Shaw. I believe you've taught at his school before and I know that you've also trained with a lot of people like Pete McGregor, right? Who have different disabilities and different conditions. And the beautiful thing about Jiu-Jitsu is everyone can find a way to turn Jiu-Jitsu into something that works for them. And I think in many ways, Jiu-Jitsu has kind of shown me that disabled is not even really a great word to describe a lot of these things because again, I mean, if someone can grapple effectively with one arm, is it really a disability anymore? Jiu-Jitsu is beautiful because you can turn it into whatever you want it to be. You can make it fit around you in a way that other sports can't do. I mean, if you go and you want to try to play basketball and you're 5 ft tall and everyone you're playing with is 7 ft tall, you will have a bad time. Like there unless you really enjoy losing always, you will have a bad time. But in Jiu-Jitsu, you can be the most unathletic person ever. You can have a completely different body type from what the regular grappler looks like and you can still find a way to make Jiu-Jitsu your own. And that I think is one of the reasons it sticks with people so much is it's so customizable and so personalizable. Speaker 3: Sure. Yeah, I think that's that's great. And yeah, exactly what you said about Pete and uh my first ever Jiu-Jitsu coach actually, he only had one uh functioning arm. He got into a car accident, I think sometime later in his life and he only had, you know, one arm that he would, you know, just tie in his ghee. But he was a phenomenal Black belt. I would watch him either I feel him train with us or watch him train with other people and it was like insane that it didn't seem like you said, like a handicap at all. And the same the same is true with Pete. Like I've seen Pete do some damage in the room and like I've I've, you know, trained with him enough. Like they find ways, everyone, right? To use their strengths to and to um make do with what they have. And that's that's just something that, yeah, is is another aspect of Jiu-Jitsu that is so unique and so huge. And like you said, if you're super slow and you're on the soccer field, you're probably not going to have a good time. If you're in above or below average height and you're on the basketball court, you're probably not going to have a good time, you know? And yeah, Jiu-Jitsu just finds a way to like give you advantages where you normally probably wouldn't have them or I guess like, you know, where conventionally people would think you don't have an advantage, I guess. So, yeah, man, there's just another reason why it's like such a cool and unique sport and why I think a lot of people who aren't just like, I don't know, supremely talented or, you know, like physically gifted just uh excel or just at least enjoy. Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me of this uh old interview on Sherdog from way back in the day. Back when uh Brock Lesnar was like at the the peak of his prime. I think he went back when he was in the UFC and he was he was wrecking shop in there. And I remember on Sherdog, they did an interview with I think it was Hory and Gracie. And Hory and said something to the effect of, the difference between me, meaning Hory and and Brock Lesnar is that there's only one Brock Lesnar and there will only ever be one Brock Lesnar. But given enough time, Hory and Gracie can produce 100 more people like him. And he's not talking about having kids, right? He's he's talking about the fact that in Jiu-Jitsu, you can bring other people up to to that level. It is a very inclusive sport. It's hard to get gated out of Jiu-Jitsu from a capability standpoint. I mean, pretty much everyone, if they stick around with it, can find a way to conform it around them, to make it something that works for them. That doesn't mean they're going in there and they're beating everyone and they're tapping everyone, but it means that like they can find a a home in Jiu-Jitsu and they can carve out their own little niche. That is a real thing, I think, in Jiu-Jitsu that makes it pretty unique. Speaker 3: Yeah, I just totally agree. I think that, yeah, we all saw, I mean, not maybe all of us. At this point, it's, yeah, it's a little bit dated, but we most of us, I uh maybe, I don't know, actually anymore. It's probably not the case. But a lot of us looked up to Hoist Gracie and what he did in the early UFC or the first UFCs. And we saw this guy who wasn't physically imposing, competing against people who were and were just like generally scary looking and used Jiu-Jitsu to to win, right? And that was really inspiring to a lot of people. I know me myself, like that was very, very inspiring because I just traditionally only looked up to or only really seen fighters or, yeah, like super high-level athletes that like looked the part, acted the part and competed like that, right? They looked otherworldly. And Hoist just didn't. And that was, I think, just so inspiring to so many people and it was great that it got a lot of people to think about themselves as like uh the Hoist Gracies of, you know, whatever, just or like maybe underdogs, maybe not entirely super gifted or just like, you know, imposing or whatever, but they found, you know, you could you could find a way to win if you were skilled enough. And I think that just was huge for a lot of people and, you know, I think even, oh man, like more modern days examples, man, not maybe not even modern, but like Marcelo Garcia is a good example. Mikey Musumeci is a way more of a modern example. These are guys who don't look super physically imposing, but they've reached mastery near mastery of the sport and that's like super inspiring for people to see and I think that's why they those athletes resonate a lot with people because they don't look like anything special. They don't really act better than anyone necessarily or the Brock Lesnars were like, this dude actually acts like a Viking or uh, you know, a barbarian. Like Hoist, Marcelo, Mikey, like they're kind of just normal dudes, you know, and they they look the part. And that speaks a lot to people and it speaks to what Jiu-Jitsu kind of represents, you know? Which is a sport for for everyone and, yeah, I I always thought that was kind of cool. Speaker 2: Now, of course, one of the things about a sport that is for everyone is it attracts everyone. It attracts a very wide, diverse group of people. And something that you had talked about was it can be difficult to maintain your sanity in a sport like this. Reminds me of a quote from my buddy Chris Wojcik, who said, I've played sports for my entire life and I have never met a higher density of actual insane people than in the competitive Jiu-Jitsu world. It is perhaps the smallest niche sport with the most lunatics. And I I absolutely I love that quote and I I do think it's true, right? There's a lot of people who, you know, I'm I'm hesitant to throw around the word crazy here. I don't think that's a fair term to use. But there are a lot of people who behave in a very unhinged way in the sport sometimes. And I'm not even necessarily talking about mental disorders or anything, but I'm just talking about people who are just completely out there. Man, if you're going to start a Jiu-Jitsu gym, this is actually one underrated piece of advice I would give to people is understand, when you start a Jiu-Jitsu gym, the kind of customer base you're going to bring in, you are going to deal with more lunatics than you have ever dealt with in your life unless you're like a public defender in court or something like that. There are a lot of people who come into Jiu-Jitsu who are just very different. And you got to be ready for that. And I think that when you live in that competitive circle, you're drawn to a lot of those people especially. What is your experience been like on this front? Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, similar to Chris, for sure. I mean, it's so funny because even just like my like when I compare and I'm not like comparing in a in a not trying to compare in a negative way or anything, but when I I look at my group of friends, you know, from when I was growing up or just in school or my neighborhood, et cetera, and when I compare them to the friends that I have in Jiu-Jitsu and the people that I meet in Jiu-Jitsu, they're just a totally different group of people. And they're really like all almost individually unique. Whereas like most of my friends growing up or, you know, the people I grew up with, like they're all kind of similar. Like they would be what you'd classify as more normal. Whereas Jiu-Jitsu, the Jiu-Jitsu crowd is anything but. And that's like a really good thing, I think. And it's really cool. And I and it's it's helped me become like be comfortable being who I am. And that was something that I struggled a lot with growing up was, you know, I just tried to fit in all the time and I tried to like fit this mold that I don't necessarily belong to. And that was really hard on me. And it was, you know, in high school and college specifically, I was like, I was trying to be the normal high school college kid and that just isn't me. I'm I'm super different. I want to train every day. I want to like, you know, I would just do insane shit like, you know, go for runs at 5:00 a.m., 6:00 a.m. and then instead of going out with people, I would go to train and then I would come home and watch Jiu-Jitsu and this is not like normal behavior, you know? And and not that it's it's like a bad thing. I think, you know, I thought it was, but looking back on it, I'm like, that was I was just doing what made me happy, you know? And I think maybe that's what like a lot of Jiu-Jitsu people, the feedback loop they fall into is like, they're doing this thing that makes them really happy, so they feel very empowered to be just themselves and and continue these behavior patterns because they still get to do the thing that they love. Like as much as Jiu-Jitsu forces change, it also does make you maybe feel, I don't know, I don't want to say superior, but it gives you this this kind of superiority like type complex. And that's not exactly what it is, but it's something like that. It gets people confidence and and it's great. Like I said, it it lets people be comfortable being who they are. But it also maybe makes you feel a little too comfortable sometimes. And, you know, you people and this is like, this is true like amongst most of the top-level competitors in the sport. Like they just feel like they can say anything they want and it's completely right or acceptable or appropriate. And when it's most of the time it's not. Some of the shit that Gordon or Craig or I don't I don't want to name too many other names. I'll pick on them because they, you know, they got plenty going on. I don't think they're going to be bothered by it. But like they'll say some shit sometimes where I'm like, what are you guys talking about? This is you're living in this entire like different universe. And maybe Craig does it a little less than I'm I'm making it seem. But some other guys like they'll say some some stuff and you just like, you're like, are are we being serious? Are we listening to this person? Are we like acting like this is an, you know, a normal thing? And I mean, I could cite so many examples of this. I don't want to get like too hyper specific, but it's just something I see all the time and and I I travel all over the country, the world, teaching seminars, competing, meeting people and like, well, like Chris said, I've never met like a more interesting or unique group of people that you could kind of classify as insane. And not in a super negative way. Like not like I'm I meet so many amazing people that are a little out there, but they're really great people. And I don't want this to come off like I'm shitting on anyone specific or in on the community in general, but I don't know, there is a large correlation or like an obvious correlation, I think, between the sport and the people who do the sport and those same people being a little out there, a little nuts. And like I said, I don't know if it's necessarily a terrible thing, but sometimes I've had to pull myself back and you take some deep breaths and remind myself that like, while maybe this is a stressful community to live in, I am still super grateful to have a a community of people that are comfortable being themselves, uh that are very much um individuals and they don't try to fit this mold and it was that same positive or that that same like ideology or like thought process that led to very positive change in my life. So, I don't want to look at it completely negative, but sometimes it gets a little it gets a little hard. And and the world in general these days does feel a little bit more crazy than in recent years. So, that's maybe why it's top of mind and it's uh sometimes maybe a little bit more, I don't want to say stressful, but uh yeah, I I I find myself having to pull back, take some deep breaths and have some alone time more than in the past, for sure. Speaker 2: Well, that's a really interesting take. And I think you're right and you're on to something here. In the real world, quote unquote, you are kind of encouraged to conform. As a career guy, someone who worked in an office for most of his adult life, I definitely went through this process. There you're taught to very much moderate your personality and who you are. In fact, especially when I was younger, that was a big part of the feedback that I would get from older folks is you need to moderate your personality, you need to tone it down. And I realized after a while that they're basically the corporate world encourages you to kind of conform to this this shell, this personality type of like the perfect corporate employee. And to some extent, it's good to learn emotional regulation, right? But on the other hand, I think you can also wind up trying to blend in too much. Looking back on the time that I spent working in corporate, you know, I could probably describe a personality type for you and it probably would accurately describe about 80 or 90% of the people that I worked with. And that's really not good, right? When everyone is trying to blend into the exact same type because no one wants to rock the boat. And I I mean, to some extent, I think when we say Jiu-Jitsu is full of lunatics, what we really mean is it's full of people who are completely unconstrained by needing to care or wanting to care about what other people think about them. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Like I think it's good to live authentically and express yourself, but it is also important to have some degree of filter. And there are a lot of people in Jiu-Jitsu who really haven't seemed to apply that kind of base-level filter that most people are supposed to learn when they're in grade three. I mean, I I see people post stuff sometimes and I'm thinking like, wow, you know, publicly posting a death threat on Instagram. That's definitely a choice. I wouldn't do it. But in Jiu-Jitsu, you will see people say and do wild things that are and really it feels like by living in this Jiu-Jitsu space, they've found this element of society where they're not expected to put up social niceties or performative behavior and people will just act like completely unregulated id. And although it's kind of fascinating to watch and it's admirable in some ways, it's also not great when like you said, sometimes people go way above the lines of what would be considered good taste. And as a parent myself, sometimes I think, you know, man, I don't know if I would want my kid to be following all of these people on Instagram and taking life advice from them. Speaker 3: Yeah. If I could jump in, just the the social media Instagram sphere is where I see the most insane and like almost the worst of a lot of people, right? And for the longest time, I just completely avoided like the internet and social media and, you know, things because it made me feel really good like not being involved in that. As I as kind of as I was talking about like maybe at the beginning of the conversation, it is a something I'm trying to transition towards is maybe being a little bit more of a I don't want to say like influencer, like content creator and like and really like helping become more of a coach and more of like a influence, hopefully a positive influence, right? But because of that, I'm on the internet way more. I'm on social media way more. I'm seeing Instagram a lot more. And that is where I've just seen the most unhinged and insane stuff happen and people say the craziest stuff. And it's like in person, I see a lot of this and and I hear a lot of it and I'm already taken aback when it's put in front of my face, you know, in person. But then it's like 10X that on the internet and on social media. And that's where like it gets a little old for me where I'm like, just you're in this constant like loop of anything you you say or do or like, you know, people just will have a crazy take or they will just put their own takes out there that you think are kind of like wild and they lack like this like critical thinking filter or any like lens like practical lens that they they should be looking through, you know? And that, yeah, I don't know. That has been a a bit of an adjustment for me as like, you know, this is the first year I've really tried to like build my Instagram, put more effort into a social media presence and stuff because that just like historically wasn't something I cared about. I don't really care about followers or clout or anything. I just was fine doing what I was doing, trying to get better Jiu-Jitsu, trying to improve improve every single day. But now it's like, okay, I I recognize on the business side of things and on the um yeah, branding side of things, like it's really important to have a that internet presence. And like I said, just with that, I'm putting myself out there a lot more and then I'm exposing myself to way more idiocracy almost, you know? And I'm oh man, it's yeah, it's it's tough, you know? And I think when we first when you first messaged me about the topic to discuss, this was I think the first thing I said was like, uh probably because I was like presently dealing with it, was like how to just maintain your sanity in an increasingly insane world. And yeah, it's still something I deal with and it's something that like, man, I just have to filter every single day through so many insane, weirdo messages or weirdo comments or whatever. And I'm not like I'm not trying to speak too negatively about the community. This is maybe just like what the internet represents, less of like the Jiu-Jitsu community, but even still, it's just it feels like there's a bit of crossover. And it is it's a lot to deal with, you know? Because, yeah, I sometimes feel like, I don't know, what did your parents not teach you to, you know, be, I don't know, at least somewhat objective in your thoughts or, you know, like compassionate or empathetic or something, you know? And anyways, it's just a lot of that. And uh I don't want to say that everyone who Jiu-Jitsu lacks compassion and empathy. That's not at all what I mean. I'm speaking more on the social media side now. But, yeah, I just I find that there's a just a lot of maybe people that, I don't know, say or feel empowered to say and give these kind of unhinged thoughts and opinions and behaviors. Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you brought up a great point there, which is that it does sometimes feel like people just, you know, their parents never taught them how to be nice and play nice with other kids, at least judging from the way that they behave on the internet. And I think part of the reason why everyone keeps bringing this up is because it's such a different experience from what you get when you go into a Jiu-Jitsu gym. You know, when you go into a Jiu-Jitsu gym, no one there is going to be yelling at you and screaming at you and getting up your ass over every little thing. But you go on the internet and especially social media, and we got to remember, like these are platforms that are algorithmically designed to increase engagement. They don't care about good human behavior. They care about engagement. And that can result in amplification of stuff that gets attention and that is often not positive. I mean, the reason why a lot of unhinged stuff gets promoted so much is because it gets attention and it feeds the algorithm. So, if you want to survive in this sport, you have to almost have two different mindsets. When you go to the gym, that's that's a great chance to really socialize at a human level. But when you go on the internet, it's a completely different world and you've got to be willing to accept that you're going to get a lot of people just being completely unfairly awful to you for no good reason. You're going to see a lot of really unhinged stuff and that's that is unfortunately that ecosystem. I wish I didn't have to use social media. I mean, I've mostly closed down a lot of my personal social media stuff, but to build up this brand, I have to have social media and so I engage there. And you've really got to learn to compartmentalize and not take it too personally because it is weird to engage with some people who just come across as the most like hateful, awful people. And I always wonder like, man, would you show up to your Jiu-Jitsu gym and talk to your coach like this? Would you take the same kind of tone and send the same kind of message in person? Probably not. But I I feel like social media especially has raised a whole generation of people to just expect that it's okay to just be completely awful all the time. And I really think that that's the wrong direction for our society to go. And one of the things I love about Jiu-Jitsu is it's one of the last places I think where people can get together, they can make new friends and they can actually build those social bonds and hopefully learn that it it's not cool to just be a jerk all the time, right? Jiu-Jitsu ideally should give you that in person, but I think the internet kind of pulls us away from that sometimes. Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, if I could speak on that, like, you know, and and I'm sorry to bring up like two completely almost separate topics, right? Like the internet sphere and the the Jiu-Jitsu space, you know, like the physical space are much much different. Like you are immediately like accountable for your actions in the Jiu-Jitsu gym and on the Jiu-Jitsu mats. Like if you, man, think about if you're, I don't know, just like um not playing nice. If you're doing something, you're either talking trash or you're, you know, maybe doing something dirty, slapping someone in the in the head with a collar tie or whatever. Like you're immediately accountable for those actions. Like you're going to have to deal with the consequences. And, you know, whether or not you you're made to pay for those, like you are at least forced to, like I said, like face face the consequences of your actions. Whereas on the internet, it's that's just not the case. Like you you don't have to face, you know, any consequences. You can say whatever you want. There really will be no negative uh to come of it. And it's funny because I recently reached out and I talked to uh a couple like content creators and influencers that, you know, I saw were doing very well and and uh kind of like exploding. Uh I'll I'll name them actually because uh Mikey Musumeci and Sean Lanson, shout out. Both those guys, their pages are really great. They're doing a really good job. So I I was talking to them. And both of them gave me kind of the same answer. Mikey basically said, post things that will make people mad. And I, you know, equated that as like what I think everyone calls rage bait nowadays. And then Sean Lanson basically said, I think he he maybe used the term rage bait, but he told me he's like, happy people don't comment. He's like, like unhappy people comment. And that is like you said, that like the social media is algorithmically designed to promote more engagement, which is going to happen through comments and through discussion, which is mostly going to be unhappy people, sadly. So, it's funny that like they both independently kind of gave me that answer. And it's true, you know, like it's a way to build discussion and to like, you know, like literally bait people, unhappy people into either uh boosting your, you know, profile or whatever. But like in a Jiu-Jitsu gym, that doesn't exist. You are putting an immediate target on your back and unless you're the best guy in the world, you're going to have to pay for it. Like you're going to have to pay for it. Yeah, I mean, respect to like guys like AJ Agazarm, uh because he was like the best of this back in the day. He would like he would talk so much shit and he would, you know, say the most crazy the craziest things about or to people. But he would get on the mats and he would take a beating. Like all the time. And he was like the toughest dude out there. I don't know if he's still competing. But he was so tough. I think I think he still is. He was just like insanely tough and he would at least like say all this stuff and then take the beatings, which I I respect because no one on the internet these days seems to do that. And uh, yeah, you know, I I don't want to belabor the point too much, but I just I do note this as like uh something I'm I've observed and especially nowadays. Yeah, yeah. I think too, the the fact that no one can just admit that they're wrong anymore leads to people getting really entrenched and hostile and then the algorithm feeds into that. I mean, this is a very common experience on the internet, right? Someone can post something and be completely provably wrong. And then you comment and say, you know what, actually, you're straight up wrong about this. And they'll they'll never admit that they were wrong. The beautiful thing about Jiu-Jitsu is it teaches you to be wrong because if you're wrong when you're doing Jiu-Jitsu, you can't lie your way out of it. Everyone knows that you're stuck in bottom side control there. You're clearly you did something wrong, right? This isn't something that you can just hide or dance around. So, I think Jiu-Jitsu, that's part of why it feels so authentic is because as they say, there no one can lie on the mats, right? When you're on the mats, it either works or it doesn't. And that's just the way that it is. Whereas on the internet, it just feels progressively harder to have really authentic interactions with people. And so I I think again, Jiu-Jitsu remains one of the best places in the modern world to actually have real human connection and to make interesting connections and meet new people. I mean, if someone were to move to a brand new city and they wanted to know how do I make friends? One of the first things I'd suggest is sign up for a Jiu-Jitsu gym, right? Before anything else I can think of, I would say try to find a Jiu-Jitsu gym because that will probably be the easiest way for you to meet interesting new people and have fun doing it and learn something useful at the same time. Speaker 3: Yes. Dude, I think that's huge. I think that's that's massive. And it's oddly enough, like less competitive than even like if you were to join a like a Dungeons and Dragons league, club, something like that. You know what I mean? Like like those guys, I mean, just from what I was, like, you know, they get a little competitive and maybe a little, you know, like could be and this is not entirely true. I'm using this like super specific example, but maybe, you know, like something like that is like, okay, yeah, maybe not the most like inclusive, right? Or whatever. It's very competitive. Jiu-Jitsu is like, it's super competitive, but it's also like we recognize when someone is new and not super capable yet. And we typically will help them because we've been everyone has been there. The moment that they started Jiu-Jitsu, they were in that exact same position, you know, whether or how long people stay there is uh varies, but at one point, we were all there. So, I agree. I think that that's a really good that's a good point. If if someone is thinking or is, you know, looking for a community like that, or let's say they move somewhere or they're, you know, just in general trying to find something like that. I think that that is the way to do it. And, yeah, like I said, we're a Jiu-Jitsu is a competitive sport, but the culture is not necessarily like, it's not hyper competitive. And I think if we recognize that someone is trying and then they're putting themselves out there, we do respect that, you know? Because we can all relate to that. Speaker 2: Yeah, amazing, sir. Well, as we tie this up, I just want to maybe ask one last question. Based on your journey and what's worked for you and what you've seen work for others, any tips or suggestions you would have for people from a mental health or a mindset standpoint, just things that made your Jiu-Jitsu journey easier that you think other people should consider? Speaker 3: Yeah, actually, and this this is one that has like truly changed my life, changed my game, changed everything. It's changed the way that I see the world. I just introduced gratitude into my life. Just I felt grateful for everything that I have and didn't focus on the things that I don't have because everyone forever could always say that. They could say I don't have this, I don't have that. I'm not this, I'm not that. You can say that, right? And that's going to be true. But if you constantly remind yourself that and you and you put yourself in that negative feedback loop, it's just going to eat at your psyche. It's going to eat at your happiness and it's going to make you feel not great. And so introducing gratitude is the exact opposite. It's being grateful for for everything you have and it's it's accepting that things maybe aren't perfect, but there's a lot of amazing things in your life. And it could be and I do this when people ask me about journaling or anything. It's it's like it doesn't have to be this like massive like diary of thoughts. It could literally be you sitting down and listing five things that you're grateful for and it could be as simple as the glass of water in front of me. It could be as simple as, oh, the sun is out today. It could be anything like I have a bed to sleep in. It could be anything. And and once you start to put yourself in that positive feedback loop, things really snowball. Like great things start to happen for you because you're looking for great things to happen to you. Whereas the negative feedback loop and just thinking about all the things you don't have and the things you want and the things that you wish you had, it just keeps you thinking about that stuff. And you're just like every day you're living life basically expecting things to not work out for you. Whereas when you flip that on its head, you just become a grateful person. I think you just things become a lot easier. You become a lot happier and you realize that life is pretty awesome. No matter who you are, no matter where you are, just count your blessings and think about, you know, all the things that you are really, really happy to have in your life and to to just even exist is a true gift. So, I think that's been the biggest thing. And in a Jiu-Jitsu context, what has helped me is like be grateful for the wins, obviously, be grateful for the the losses and the lessons learned and use that data and become grateful for that data, right? And that will help you move forward rather than just being bitter, woe is me, nothing ever works out for me. That type of mindset does not help people. You know, and I I don't have a large case study on this or anything, but just I can speak to myself like noticing a major difference when instead of being, you know, sad about my bad practice or a bad match or whatever, I'm grateful that I even get the opportunity to to train and to have a bad practice. I'm grateful that I have the opportunity to compete and to potentially lose because I mean, really, that's just going to make winning and beating those hurdles feel so much better. So, I think that is probably the biggest thing, the biggest like game-changing element that I have added into my life over the past few years and that I would recommend anyone give to themselves as well. Speaker 2: Amazing, sir. Very well said. Well, if people want to follow you on social media and send you their unhinged hate mail, how do they do that? Speaker 3: Just Keith Gregorian on Instagram is uh the place to get a hold of me. That's where I'm really focusing a lot of my content and attention to right now. I really trying to build that. So if you're listening and you made it this far, hopefully you uh enjoyed and hopefully you'd be willing to follow me and and engage and just uh I I post daily. I post a lot of educational content, whether it's technique videos, whether it's general Jiu-Jitsu advice or Jiu-Jitsu lessons and knowledge gained. I am very, very consistent and I'm putting a lot of effort into it. And so I would appreciate any and all support in doing that. Speaker 2: Amazing, sir. Well, I will put links to your social in the show notes. I'll also throw in links to everything that we make, but that's easy to find. Just go to BJJ Mental Models.com. I always tell people, the bare minimum, check out the podcast, full-length episodes like this, our mini episodes and our newsletter. All of those are completely free. They cost nothing. They're all ad-free, so might as well grab those while you can. If you want to level up with us, please do check out BJJ Mental Models Premium. It is how we pay the bills here. It is the reason why we are able to remain ad-free and uninfluenced by that type of stuff. It is to the best of my knowledge, one of the most popular Jiu-Jitsu subscription sites on the internet. Our focus is completely different. It's not a traditional online academy. There's a lot of people who do a great job of that. Our focus is primarily audio and delivering lessons through concepts, mental models, strategy, kind of stuff that doesn't fit very well into other courses. We've also got some amazing ongoing premium podcasts with some just incredible grapplers. So if you want access to another level of podcast content that is kind of more focused on actually helping you get better at all aspects of Jiu-Jitsu, that's what we do there. So please do check that out if you haven't already. All of that's at BJJ Mental Models.com. But again, I will throw a link in the show notes to that. I've been actually hearing from a lot of people recently that if you are visually impaired or if you have ADHD or you're just a real fan of audio stuff like Audible or Masterclass, a lot of people come to us specifically for that approach. So the first week's free, please do check out BJJ Mental Models Premium if you haven't already. Link in the show notes. But Keith, my buddy, thank you so much for coming by, man. Great topic and important one and I'm glad we got to have this chat. Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you very much for having me on and for for talking to me. I appreciate you guys. Speaker 2: Most welcome, sir. And thank you to the listeners. We appreciate you as well and we'll talk to you in the next one. See you then.