Ep. 363: Jiu-Jitsu for Belonging, feat. Kenny Kim

Speaker 1: Hey everybody, before we get started this week, I have huge news. She actually did it. We're pleased to announce that Beatrice Jin, top-ranked women's competitor in North America and long-time BJJ Mental Models premium community member has published her first ever course with us, exclusive to BJJ Mental Models. It's called Stop Being Nice. It's a three-part audio series designed to solve real mindset problems that regular folks experience in Jiu-Jitsu. If you struggle to be aggressive and competitive in Jiu-Jitsu, you'll find the solutions here. If you're already a BJJ Mental Models premium subscriber, you've already got access. And if you are not, good news, you can get it now and get your first week free. Go to BJJMentalModels.com and check it out today. Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to BJJ Mental Models episode 363. I'm Steve Kwan. BJJ Mental Models is your guide to a conceptual and intelligent Jiu-Jitsu approach. And I'm here today with Instagram reel creator extraordinaire. I got Kenny Kim on the line. Kenny, how's it going, my friend? Speaker 2: Right, man. Thanks for having me on the line. Speaker 1: I'm happy to have you. Now, you kind of came onto my radar because you've actually got upcoming work that you're co-producing with my boy Chris Wojcik, one of our sponsored athletes. And I think we're probably going to get you and him on in the future to do kind of a co-panel to discuss that. But first, let's maybe let's plug who you are. Explain who you are, the kind of work that you do, and what you're best known for. Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've been training Jiu-Jitsu for over 25 years now. I own an academy here in Marietta, Georgia. Next year will be 20 years, so we're celebrating the big 20. I'm a fourth-degree black belt. I'm one of the co-founders of Ares BJJ Association. And then I have my affiliates directly under me, the creator of my The Mat Made reality TV show, a couple of books, a bunch of content, just trying to inspire the people out there through Jiu-Jitsu. Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I definitely recommend people give you a follow on Instagram if they haven't already. I'll drop a link in the show notes at the end. But that touches on the topic I wanted to maybe get into here with you today. So, you are one of a class of Jiu-Jitsu practitioners that I would consider to be connectors. So often when we talk about Jiu-Jitsu, we talk about, okay, what are we doing technically? And who's the best of the best competing today in the world-class scene? But as Jiu-Jitsu grows, I think it becomes incredibly and increasingly important to have people who bring in almost like a bizdev mindset, a business development mindset into the sport. And start thinking about how can we use this sport to uplift people, to connect people, and to grow this pie that we all benefit from, right? I mean, the more that Jiu-Jitsu grows and the more that we connect together, the more powerful this becomes and the more lucrative and profitable and successful it becomes for all of us who live in the sport. And that touches on some of the work that you've done off the mats. Maybe talk a little bit about that, the initiatives you've done like Mat Made and how all of this stuff ties together. Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. So Mat Made, um, it was actually my story. That was my first book called Mat Made, Overcoming Your Fears. And I wrote that book because it was my life story. I was literally, you know, raised on the mats ever since I was a kid training different martial arts, and that was the path that I kind of took. And the path that led me to who I am today and the positive changes that it gave me. People that I grew up with when I was younger didn't quite have that, but it was martial arts, the the the mats, Jiu-Jitsu that kept me in line and made it to where I am today. And so I thought, okay, if I can do it, why not Joe down the road? Why not this person? Why not that person? Why not somebody that looks like me and that's looking up to me? So, I was kind of just uh, out of spite that I did that. And, you know, the response was really overwhelmingly great. And so I thought, man, I want to get this out to the masses. How do I do that? How do I tell stories? Not only my story, how do I tell stories of people benefiting from Jiu-Jitsu? And so, you know, when I traveled a lot teaching and, you know, competing or whatnot, we would sit down after training, after a good training session, and, you know, everybody had a story. They would say, you know, how Jiu-Jitsu has helped them, you know, with depression or alcoholism or or or domestic violence or whatever it may be. And I thought, man, if I can tell these stories to inspire, if that video can inspire just one person, we're one person better. And so, I made a plan to kind of do this reality TV show or docu-series type of video, not knowing what I was jumping into. All right? So financially, I thought, okay, you know, I was just thinking, okay, we can just grab, you know, a few people that I know that are into videography, have them film it, edit it, we'll put it out. And so, I started searching and ended up, you know, hooking up with some great producers and, anyways, long story short, I didn't realize that the quality show that we were looking for would cost this much. I think our first episode was upwards to almost $60,000 for eight episodes. And I was adamant though. I thought, man, I need to do this. So, I had a partner of mine who believed in the same work. And so we said, okay, we'll put in and let's just do one episode and see how it does. So we do the first episode and the amount of support we got from the community was just crazy. People loved it. They're like, oh my God, this is this is it. You need to do more of these. And mind you, this is a very family-oriented, you know, videos. Like, uh, kids can watch it, women can watch it. It's very inspiring, right? And so we said, all right, let's do one more. So, anyway, we ended up doing seven. And they're free on YouTube. And while we were filming, we had other students that would want to tell their stories. And so we couldn't do an entire episode on them. So we just set up a camera and had them just speak to the camera. And we had one, um, a student, a woman, first, she just kind of started off slowly and then she talked about how her son was murdered and Jiu-Jitsu has helped her cope with this loss and, I mean, like, we were literally all crying. Like, and these are just real stories. And so we just started doing little shorts and started posting those on Instagram too and, you know, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, whatnot. And those videos, I mean, I'm talking about from the ghost of Jiu-Jitsu to celebrities to people are sharing it left and right because it was so inspiring. And this is all through Jiu-Jitsu. And so we just said, all right, let's run with this. Mat Made is what it is. We had the name trademarked. Mat Made just became this big umbrella of like, okay, how do we take this and use it to inspire people and connect people? And so now Mat Made.com, we have the largest Jiu-Jitsu directory. There's 7,000 schools on there. Whatever city you live in, you can basically go if you're traveling, you want to drop in, you can go in there, find the schools, you can see, read their reviews, you can see what they, what kind of facilities they have, what kind of classes they teach. So we have that. We have the, I actually just came out with a new drink called the Hydrus Blood from Mat Made. It's a recovery drink. So we're trying to connect the Jiu-Jitsu community and the non-Jiu-Jitsu community, the instructors, the academy owners, the coaches, the athletes. We want to like take this opportunity with Mat Made to connect people together in a positive way for our community. Does that make sense? Speaker 1: 100% makes sense. And and let's talk about this idea of connection here, right? I believe that connection is the single most important thing in Jiu-Jitsu. And when I say connection, I don't mean sleeve or collar grips, right? I think as people start Jiu-Jitsu in their journey, they tend to be very obsessive about the technical details and individual performance. And it's all about how can I get better and learn more and not get tapped as much. And that's kind of the the hamster wheel that gets you into Jiu-Jitsu and keeps you going at the beginning. But everyone that I've met eventually ages out of that. And at some point we realize, especially if you do this for a long time and Jiu-Jitsu becomes one of the core pillars of your life, you realize there is way more to this than just the actual technique and the rolling. And at the end of the day, that stuff, although it's great and it's important and it's useful, really it's just the glue that holds us all together. It it's the excuse that we have to get together as human beings. I know beginners sometimes look at these like old ass black belts and they're like, wow, I can't why would you still participate in Jiu-Jitsu when you're old and decrepit and you can't even roll anymore? Like why would Helio Gracie at 95 or whatever years old still be doing Jiu-Jitsu when he can't physically, you know, fight to the same intensity? And it's because you realize as you get older, the actual grappling is like the least important part of Jiu-Jitsu. And I know that's a very old ass man thing to say and people hate when black belts talk about it, but it's completely true. Speaker 2: No, it's the the honest truth and that's what like you said, that's what keeps us on the mat. It's again, the way you perform on the mats is you're literally finding yourself and you're connecting with other people. And I think as we get older, like I know I'm getting up there in age, as we get older, that's what we're striving for. We're not trying to see who the toughest is on the mat. We're not trying to see, oh, who the champion is, but it's I have a place that I belong to. I have a community of people that I support, they support where we can inspire each other to be the best versions of ourselves. Speaker 1: Yeah. And man, in a world like we live in today where things are increasingly getting disconnected, right? There's everything is remote, everything is digital, real interactions are becoming rarer and rarer. And of course, things are getting increasingly fake, right? Just between the rise of AI content and influencer culture, things sometimes feel less genuine. I actually think that Jiu-Jitsu has this possibility of being one of the most powerful forces for connecting people together. I mean, sport has always been that, but Jiu-Jitsu has something really unique and special about it. You don't need a lot of stuff to do Jiu-Jitsu. You need you and a buddy, and that's about it, right? I mean, yeah, you can layer on training equipment, right? But you don't need to have some high-end facility to get the value out of this. And I really think that people like you who focus on like not just how do we learn how to do better arm bars, but also how do we start connecting to people who do arm bars, right? How do we actually bring humans together? That I think is the thing that ultimately takes this sport from being this like fringe cousin of MMA to being something that could potentially be huge. I don't think we're there yet, but I'm very excited about the direction that this kind of stuff is taking us. Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like, you know, especially with like UFC now hosting the, you know, BJJ. It's becoming more and more mainstream. Now, I want the positive side of Jiu-Jitsu more so, not only the combative side, you know, like as far as like combat, I mean, combat and competition, there's a lot out there. And people just see it as, okay, well, it's another competition or it's another, you know, championship. But what really is uh important is the main ingredient that goes into that, which is again, going back, connection. What it does for people. Like I know what it's done for me. I know what it's done for, you know, hundreds of people. And so that's the side that I want to show. That's the side I want people to understand what Jiu-Jitsu is all about, not how tough the person is or how beautiful their, you know, technique is. Speaker 1: So, how do you market that message and get it in front of someone? Because when people learn about Jiu-Jitsu, often they come in with a very specific goal that is usually related to physical performance. Like I want to learn to defend myself, I want to get in shape, I want to be a champion. Sometimes people come in for more, you know, amorphous things like I want to learn self-defense, but often people at the beginning, they get into this and they're very obsessive about technical details and individual performance. How do you reach those people and bring them together and connect them? Like you've done this with a lot of platforms and content. And I'd love to know how your brain works when you think about like, how can I reach people with Jiu-Jitsu being the message? Speaker 2: Well, so again, Jiu-Jitsu being the message, I mean, like the technique videos are going to bring people in, right? Or the the shorts that we have with the inspirational stories, the Mat Made story. That's what's going to draw people to the channel. Now, once they're there, again, now I'm talking about bringing people together on a platform like our website where we have the directory or like the new book that we just Chris and I just wrote, how to operate a, you know, Jiu-Jitsu Academy and be successful. Like we basically it's almost like, okay, we're using just the technical video, the technical part of the video as uh the eye-catcher, you know, it's like a bait. And then once they come in, they get to see a lot more than that. They get to see, oh, how can I connect with this? How can I do this? How can I get over here? How can I do something with this? Like, basically, we're using the platform to bring people in and then from there, we're giving them a little bit more. Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense, right? I mean, Jiu-Jitsu itself has this fascinating and addictive quality. I mean, you know, the whole the whole Dana White quote about how if you watch a bunch of people doing different sports, you see two guys fighting, that is always going to get your attention first and foremost. There's just something interesting about it that gets attention. But once you start getting people into the practice, they realize that the practice itself has its own value beyond whether you can tap someone out with it. Just the act of having this physical movement practice in your life that you do with other people is huge. Speaker 2: Yep, I agree, 100%. Speaker 1: So, I would love to know how you go from zero to one when you're trying to build a a movement like this. Sometimes when people want to make a change or make a difference, it feels so overwhelming, right? And I hear this from people all the time who say like, I'm nobody. I'm a mediocre blue belt from Arkansas. No one cares about who I am. Why should I do anything? Why should I get involved in anything? And I think what I have seen myself and what you have have mirrored here is that most people who actually do cool stuff in the sport, they didn't go into it thinking, I'm going to create a billion-dollar unicorn Jiu-Jitsu company. They got into it thinking, I'm going to try to help one person. And then it just kind of took on a momentum of its own. So I'd love to hear your thoughts. Speaker 2: So I think we all have that imposter syndrome, right? And uh going back to my first book, and someone someone it was the weirdest thing. I met this person on an airplane and we kind of chatted about our careers and this and that. And he looks me up and he says, you know, you should write a book. I'm like, a book? I'm like, who am I to write a book? Like, who's going to read my book? What my story is? And he's like, listen, the story he gave me was like, everybody has imposter syndrome until you don't, right? And so that's kind of what started me. And for people, I would say it's like getting to your black belt. Like, you as a white belt starting day one, you can't even fathom getting to your black belt, right? Like, you're just trying to survive. Black belt is, I don't know, for an average person, what, 10 years, seven, eight, 10 years. And so I think with the movement, whatever movement that people are trying to do online, it's the same thing. It's just consistency, whether, you know, you think it's going to work, you just got to do it out of love and out of the passion, like not to gain something. I remember asking a few people that started creating content after me and I was like, well, what is your ultimate goal? And a lot of people really didn't have a goal. Either, I don't know, they wanted to be famous or most people's aim goal was like, I want to make money. I said, okay, well, fair enough. But my goals weren't to, it still isn't. Like, I don't I don't create reels so I can monetize off of it. Now, I'm not saying it's wrong, but I created content so people would be inspired. Again, I'm just there's different reasons for things. And if you're doing it for the right reasons and you continue to do so on a consistent basis like you do in your training, I think you can be successful. Speaker 1: Yeah. I think you wisely bring up that chasing money as a short-term goal can really mess you up if you're trying to build a reputation and make a difference. Not because money isn't important. It very much is important, but because it is often an outcome and not something that happens right away, especially in an attention economy with something like Instagram reels, right? The your ability to actually monetize content on a site like Instagram is pretty limited in the grand scheme of things. And so if your goal is to go in and make a living off of it in your first month, you're probably going to disappoint yourself. But if you've got a broader vision and you can build some momentum, then opportunities financially start to present themselves later on down the road, right? And I think many people give up early because if their goal is immediate profit, they won't see those results quick enough to stick around. Speaker 2: Just like on the mats, you know? Like, you can't get and it doesn't matter if you can train every day, you're not going to get your black belt overnight, you know? Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I would love to get your thoughts too on how you make content. I mean, you've got probably one of the more popular Instagram accounts with the reels that you post. And everyone that I know is trying to get into the spirit of sharing their knowledge out here. They constantly have to battle with imposter syndrome like you talked about. But the other part is trying to figure out how do I how do I make a message or deliver content that stands out and gets people's attention. And I'd love to hear you share some lessons on what's worked for you, what you've learned over the years from taking this approach. Speaker 2: Yeah, so in the beginning, it was mostly technical videos, you know, what not to do, what to do, my favorite things here, my favorite things there. It drew a lot of people. And I think what's happened was, I mean, in the past year or so, I've kind of changed maybe, yeah, about a year, maybe a little longer. I kind of changed my approach and of how I create content now. Before, it was just for sheer numbers because we wanted more followers. The more followers means that we have more reach for Mat Made, for, you know, all the other platforms that we use. But it got to a point where it was just so repetitive and it was just I felt like a lot of stuff were just getting recycled because every content creator basically, if you look at the Jiu-Jitsu, it's like, whatever was hot, oh, we're going to show you this 50/50 stuff. We're going to show you how and it was almost repetitive and everybody was kind of doing the same thing with their own flair. And so, my approach now is what I feel that week or that day, that's what I post. And maybe I don't get, I mean, like, I used to get millions of views or 100,000, whatever views. Now, I don't get close to that, but I think the followers that I have right now, because I have a lot of followers that follow me, but a lot of followers that unfollow me. But I think the followers that I have right now are genuinely like my followers. They have been following me. They're true fans and they're almost like my friends. They know exactly who I am, what I'm all about. And so, maybe I don't get the views, but like, for example, I think this last post, it wasn't even a reel. It was just uh some random thoughts that I had on loyalty. I just posted it up because that's what I felt that day. And I think after sheer numbers, I'm like, I'm not here to just get views. I'm like, I want to go back to what my real intention was, inspiration, right? And so whether it's quotes, whether it's uh my thoughts, there's some training videos that I put on, like sometimes I put on uh some rolls with my student. And uh it's not to show off my rolls or to, you know, say how good I am, but it's the inside message was, I am 48 years old and I'm still able to train and have a good time because people ask me all the time, well, how do you how do you continue to train? What do you do? So, sometimes I put out these clips and I'm like, hey, I still do this. This is the way I do it. So, again, going back to connecting and inspiring people. And so that's I think if you're genuine about creating that kind of content, you know, and you could be a blue belt. It doesn't matter. Like, just there's somebody that's going to follow you and somebody that's going to start to, you know, be a fan of your work. But as long as your intentions are right and you have the right mentality of going into it. Again, not just trying to monetize it, not just trying to get views, right? Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I love that point about being authentic above chasing engagements. I am a big fan of the authenticity approach. There's that uh there's a great article by Kevin Kelly where this is many, many years ago, but he talked about 1,000 true fans. And basically his thesis was, if you want to actually make a profit and a living off of any kind of endeavor, all you need is 1,000 true fans. You don't need millions, you need about a thousand. And true fans is the important thing. Not people who are just kind of peripherally aware of you, but people who actually are invested in you. That's really all you need. I have been blown away because I get the opportunity doing this to work with some of the, you know, best-known names in the sport. And when I take a look at their analytics and their engagement, I'm always shocked that you might have people who have, you know, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of followers and they get barely any engagement or traffic. They could send out a message to a million people saying buy my course and nobody will bite. Whereas there are much smaller creators who just have a better understanding of their audience and they can reach out to a much smaller group of people and immediately get a much bigger response. So sometimes people see things like follower numbers or engagement numbers and they chase those, but those are often wildly disconnected to actual money made at the end of the day. I mean, how do you get engagement with people in a world like today where there's so much stuff out there? I think authenticity, like you said, is is the trick, right? Because I mean, yeah, arm bars are cool, techniques are cool, but nobody cares about your techniques. They might watch them if it comes up in their feed. They might even study or learn from it. But do they care about Kenny Kim's arm bar? Probably not really. But if you can connect with them on an emotional level, then you don't just have a follower, you have a friend, right? You have a fan. And that's a different level of engagement. Speaker 2: Yes. And again, with the followers and the fans that I have now, like we basically with the new release of the the book, I mean, like the first day, I mean, we probably had, I don't know, I mean, I can't even say the numbers. I mean, we had a lot of people that basically was like tagging me on how they got the book, you know what I mean? And that's the kind of support that, you know, I'm receiving because of the authenticity and the genuine followers that we had, right? And so again, it still gets filtered out and people will go through that, but that's the reality of uh trying to be active online. Speaker 1: So, how do you get people to actually engage with you online, right? Because there's so much noise out there right now. Most people at this point are probably getting hundreds of emails in their inbox every day. We have constant never-ending scrolling feeds of just ongoing content over and over. It's very hard to stand out. And because of this abundance of content, it's very hard often to get people to respond. I always love to play this game of, can I put out a message that will actually get people to engage? How do you do that? Because you're not really connecting with someone unless they engage back with you. Have you had any any findings about how to get people to not just consume passively, but actually engage with the community? Speaker 2: Well, yes. I guess uh the the best way to do that is it's kind of you need to put something out there that's going to trigger people. Then they're going to engage. So, you put out a boring old, okay, you know, here's a technique or here's what I think about Jiu-Jitsu. You put out something that's like, did you see that match with so and so? I thought so and so won or I thought he sucked. Now, you put that out there, I guarantee you're going to have so many people that's going to engage because everybody wants to, you know, talk about how they feel about that. You get what I mean? And so, you put out content out there that's kind of controversial, you're going to get engagement. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And I think that one lesson I've learned over the years is being controversial or triggering people, it doesn't have to mean that you're being a jerk or you're being unfairly hostile, right? Sometimes it can just be you say or do the thing that everyone else is thinking but is afraid to speak up about, right? Like if you say something that is said in good faith and everyone else thinks, man, someone finally said it. You can still get that controversy and that engagement and that without having to be an aggressive jerk about it. Because I know many people who go down this road, they think like, well, that's just not who I am. I don't want to throw rocks on the internet. And the big lesson I've learned is you don't have to do that to be able to stir things up. You can do that in a positive way too. Speaker 2: No, like this last post that I made, I told you my thoughts. It was on loyalty. And it's a touchy subject in Jiu-Jitsu, right? Because basically what I said was, man, I've been thinking a lot lately about loyalty, how, you know, coaches and instructors put our hearts and bodies and money and time into our students. And sometimes that just gets overlooked, you know, yada yada yada. So it was just on my mind, man, I put that out there. And obviously, it got a lot of um hits, a lot of likes, a lot of comments. And most of uh and I would get DMs from my coaches and black belts, instructors, thank you for saying that. Something that like you just said, something they wanted to say but couldn't say it. But I made the decision to say it because I'm not I'm not afraid. Like people can, you know, jump down my throat if they want. And you know, some of the comments, a lot of a lot of comments were very positive, but some of the comments were, you know, like, hey, and I actually put that on my post. You know, we're paying customers. We do whatever the hell we want to do. Yeah, it is you're right. I mean, yes, but I said, I don't just see it as a, you know, transaction. I see it more than that. I see it as a friendship. I'm loyal to my friends. I'm loyal to the, you know, people that are with me, you know, day in and day out. And that's how I feel about my students, right? But sometimes they don't feel the same way. But for me, it's not just transactional. So that's kind of the message that I put out. And again, it's controversial in a way where people want to kind of, you know, comment on how they feel. They're like, no, from a student perspective, oh, you have to be loyal to uh only Jiu-Jitsu or there's no loyalty in Jiu-Jitsu, you know, screw that, whatever. And so, like, what you just said is exactly right. Like, I basically came out and said what I thought was right. And whatever I thought. For some people, they may think differently. And that's okay. Speaker 1: One of the challenges, of course, with talking on the internet is that people will often skim over your message. They will interpret it the way that they want to interpret it, not necessarily the way that you meant it, and then they will attack you or argue with you based on what they meant, not what you meant. Speaker 2: Yep, 100%. Speaker 1: Yep. I bring this up because with loyalty, I mean, this is an interesting topic, right? And I myself have been critical in the past of sometimes the way that loyalty is handled in Jiu-Jitsu. But we have to remember, like, loyalty is not a bad thing. By definition, loyalty is a virtue. So, we don't want to paint loyalty as a bad thing. Where loyalty can become a problem is if there is some sort of cult-like dynamic and it is being used to abuse people. And that does happen. But I would say in Jiu-Jitsu, that's the minority, right? Most of the time, loyalty is established by mutual bonds due to years of training. And so you can be loyal to your instructor and your instructor can be loyal to you in a way that is non-toxic for lack of a better term. Speaker 2: Yes. It doesn't mean that a student cannot leave and train somewhere else. That's not the loyalty that I'm talking about. I mean, there's different kind of loyalty. And I'm not just talking about, oh, this person's just going to jump ship and, you know, at the end of the day, you have to do what's right for you, right? Whether it's, you know, you leaving your school, going somewhere else or, you know, a school owner leaving their association, going somewhere else. At the end of the day, you have to make the choices that are. But there's a way of doing it, a right way of doing it and a wrong way of doing it. Just ghosting somebody and just jumping ship and thinking that, hey, we had a great relationship. That's the wrong way of doing it. Like, I've had plenty of students, even my black belts have left them, but, you know, they all came up and said, hey, this is the decision I made. I think this is the direction that I want to go with. Hey, I respect that. As a man, I respect that. So, I I'm I'm still loyal to them. Like, when I see them. I don't demand loyalty, but I think it's just missing. The concept is missing where people are just like, nowadays, everybody's just talking about, oh, we're paying customers. So, we do whatever the hell we want to do. Like, I just don't like that aspect of how people are handling, you know? Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I think when you say loyalty here, really what you're talking about is the kind of connection that we've been talking about on this chat, right? Loyalty is in this sense is the positive type of loyalty, which is I prioritize and appreciate the relationship that we have. That doesn't mean that I'm going to let you whip me or force me to train at your gym or you're going to take 10% of my income. It just means that we acknowledge that we've developed a shared human connection and we acknowledge that that has value. One of the top cult experts in the world is a guy named Steve Hassan, who's talked about like the the tactics that cults use to control people. And he's got this concept he calls the influence continuum. And so basically what he says is like, you can use influence for good or for evil. And it can be the same tactic in both ways. It just depends on what your goal is, right? I mean, you can create a community organization that inspires people to give to the needy in their community or to raise money for charity. And people can be get really zealous about that. And we would consider that to be a good type of loyalty. On the other hand, you can also basically blackmail and abuse your students and guilt them for leaving your gym, right? And we would consider that to be the bad type of loyalty. So it's not that loyalty is good or bad, it's that it exists on a spectrum. And although we should be critical of abusive coaches, we should also acknowledge the fact that like, look, the majority of coaches out there are not abusive. And any loyalty that gets created is a residual from the fact that you've invested years of blood, sweat, and tears with these people, right? So, I mean, of course, loyalty goes both ways, right? The thing is people when we talk about this, people often think about like, well, should a student be loyal to the teacher? My experience has been that the opposite is also true. Most of the teachers I've had, I have always felt that they were very loyal to me as well. And they've always done right by me just like I've tried to do right by them. Speaker 2: Exactly. I mean, it's a two-way street, man. It's got to go both ways, right? You can't be the head honcho and expect people to respect you and be loyal to you while you're not doing the same. Speaker 1: Yeah. I want to get your opinion on something here. So, in Jiu-Jitsu, we we sometimes talk about this idea of Jiu-Jitsu as a third place. And this comes to the concept of like, in our lives, we basically need to have three major anchors. We've got our work, we've got our home, but we also need a third place, a place which can be recreational, it can be spiritual, it can be for social connectivity. And yes, you can get that from work and home, but it's not really the same, right? If you are only getting your your social connections from work or from home, that's kind of inbred in a lot of ways. You're not going out and meeting new people. Jiu-Jitsu is a beautiful way to meet new people. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on Jiu-Jitsu as that third place, especially for people who focus online where maybe it's hard to establish that same kind of feeling. Speaker 2: Yeah, I was watching a documentary on Netflix, I believe it was Netflix. It was called the Blue Zone or the Green Zone. I think it's called the Blue Zone. It highlighted, I think five or six different countries or areas where they had the centenarians or people that are over 100 years old. Forget what they were called, centenarians. I can't think of the words, but anyways. Speaker 1: They're old. Speaker 2: Yeah. Over 100 years old, but they were concentrated groups that lived there. And they they basically studied them to see how or why in those areas those people are living so long. And obviously, there was the health benefits, healthy eating, this and that, but the most one of the most things that I got out of it, which I thought was like, oh, that's Jiu-Jitsu, was a sense of belonging and community, okay? In those areas, they all had that. They all had a like you just mentioned, a third place they went to, whether it was a city center, whether it was a neighborhood, someone's house. They had a place where they had a sense of belonging. They had a place they can go to. They had a place where people welcomed them. They had a community behind them. And so I think for me, Jiu-Jitsu is that third place, not only from work, family, but a sense of belonging. Like that's why I think a lot of military guys end up start training Jiu-Jitsu because that brotherhood they kind of create, you know, I mean, like, you can become best friends with somebody after just the first roll. I mean, literally. I think there was a memes about uh some content creators are creating memes about, oh, I'm going to open mat, honey. And after open mat, he's like, yeah, I'm going to be his best man at his wedding. Like, you know, the next day. I think it is that place. I think, you know, in a positive, constructive way, that is a third place that people can get so much out of. Speaker 1: That's extremely well said. I love that. And you're completely right about loneliness. I mean, we are we are accurately addressing things like health and nutrition and fitness for longevity and how important those are. I think everyone understands that. But we don't talk enough about loneliness. I mean, loneliness kills people. That's one of the the predictors of whether you will die before your time is are you alone? Human beings are not meant to be alone. And man, like in in today's world where so much of our identity is tied up in jobs and so much of our time is tied up in jobs and we're expected to give so much to work. Our lives are really not as balanced as they used to be. And I mean, I can say this as someone who's, you know, climbed the corporate ladder and done that for a while, but focusing on building your identity around your job is a disastrous decision. Because eventually at one point, you know, if you live long enough, you're going to stop working, right? Or at least you're going to significantly downscale. And if that results in you losing your entire social network as well, because they were only your work buddies, man, that changes a lot, right? But Jiu-Jitsu is different. I mean, there's a I've left a lot of jobs and never talked to those people again, even though I considered them my friends at the time. But I realized after leaving the job that that job was very transactional and those people were my friends in the context of the job. With Jiu-Jitsu, I've met people who even though I don't train with them, I'm still buddies with them years later, right? And Jiu-Jitsu is the thread that ties us together. It's much more authentic and genuine than work performance in terms of how human beings connect together. Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%. I still see people like when I go to Vegas for World Masters, people that I've competed against, people that I've, you know, ran into. I mean, it's like a reunion and you see these people, you're so excited. You're excited to see them. They're asking how you're doing. They're following you, you're following them, asking how their family's doing. It is very genuine and it it's something that again, the whole premise of Mat Made was that like, I can't the people are like, what is it about Jiu-Jitsu? I was like, I can't really explain until you're really in it, right? And I just wanted to tell the stories and that's, you know, how Mat Made was born. Speaker 1: Yeah, makes sense. What are some of the the biggest lessons that you've had out of building all of this stuff up, both the the content channels and Mat Made and all of this? What are some of the big learnings you've had that maybe you didn't have at the beginning of the journey? Speaker 2: Ah, man, I think the most important lesson that I learned is that it's it's a lot of work, but it's there's going to be a lot of curve balls thrown at you, you know? Sometimes I'm like, why am I even doing this? Is this worth even doing? But again, going back to what I said earlier, if your intentions are right and you have the right reasons for doing it, and I think that keeps you going because again, I know a lot of people that, oh, I'm going to start creating content. I'm going to start doing this. I'm going to do that. We're going to start making gees. And some people, they don't last. Most people don't last. I mean, you have a handful of people that are very successful. Everybody doesn't last because again, it's not easy. I mean, it's not easy. It's like trying to create content every day, trying to come up with ideas, how am I going to inspire people? How am I going to do this? It's very daunting and it's very draining, right? It's tiring, man. You get so tired of doing this stuff. But day in and day out, you can't stop once you decide to do it. And I think that's the biggest lesson is that, man, there's going to be hurdles and you better ready be ready to overcome those. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And you talked about imposter syndrome earlier. And this ties into something that I I wanted to maybe get your feelings on. One of the main reasons people don't put their foot forward and try something new is because either they doubt themselves or they are afraid that the broader community will jump down their throat and mock them for it or make them feel bad about that. I mean, God, one of the words that gets thrown around so much these days is cringe, right? Oh, that's so cringe. I hate that word because what you're basically doing is you're trying to embarrass people into being inauthentic when you tell them that they're being cringe. But this is part of the world today, right? The world feels much more cynical now than when I grew up. I mean, I think you and I are probably part of the last generation that remembers what life was like before the internet. It was a very different experience. Whereas now, when so much of our communication happens online, I've noticed there is very much a jump to cynicism. People, you know, there is no hi, how are you, polite handshake anymore. People jump right to the aggressive criticism. And that fear of jumping into the frying pan can put a lot of people off, especially when they already have self-doubt because they're not a world champion, maybe they're not a black belt, whatever, right? What are your thoughts on overcoming that fear of judgment, that fear of imposter syndrome? Because I know you've done that. I mean, most of us have had to deal with it at some point. But what would you suggest to someone who's at the beginning of that journey and is struggling with those basically that mindset problem right now? Speaker 2: Man, my suggestion is, don't give a damn about it because there's people that are nobodies to people that are, I mean, in our industry, world champions to UFC champions. The funny thing is, you know, like, uh, I think, um, there was a collaboration I did with uh Jacare Souza, right? And there's a couple of techniques that he was he taught. And if you go to the comment section, what's funny is like, these uh couch potatoes, these white belts are literally saying, no, like Jacare Souza is teaching a technique and they're saying, no, he should have put his hand here instead of there. It works a lot better. Oh, he could have done this. He could have So, what I'm trying to say is, no matter who you are, there's somebody that's going to be out there to criticize you. So, you know what? From the beginning, you just got to turn your back and be like, you know what? That's not important to me because imagine if there's one person that's criticizing you, there's two people out there that are loving what you're putting out, your message. Speaker 1: Yeah. That is the thing that I think people need to understand. People who are happy with you, normally just silently enjoy whatever you're doing, right? But the people who are very negatively emotionally impacted are the ones most likely to speak. And unfortunately, internet culture kind of rewards that drama. I would really prefer it if everyone just had a wonderfully glowing positive comment section, but there will be that pushback. And I mean, I have similar stories. I remember after Amy Campo won ADCC, she came on our podcast and talked about some of the concepts behind how she won. And we posted some of those, some of her advice, and there were people in our comments saying things like, that's terrible advice. It would never work at the highest levels. And other people had to chime in and be like, bro, she literally just won ADCC. Speaker 2: That's wrong. Speaker 1: I think she knows what she's talking about. And so that is the thing that we always have to bear in mind. Right? People are entitled to their opinion. If they want to chew you out, they can do that. But most people when they do that, if someone is that willing to just throw out their two cents without thinking about it, they probably haven't thought much about the Jiu-Jitsu side of things as well. And you just kind of have to not take that too seriously when you get that kind of criticism. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I think that's the most important. And everybody's going to go through that and everybody still will go through that, you know? And if you keep thinking about the outcome of like, oh, what ifs, you're never going to be able to do anything, you know? You just got to trust in yourself and trust in your work and what you're all about and just, you know, full force forward. Speaker 1: Yeah. Amazing, man. Well, what would you suggest to coaches, business owners, or maybe even students who want to connect more and inspire people more and really add that social element to Jiu-Jitsu? Is there anything that you look around at the Jiu-Jitsu community and the gyms and what they're doing and think like, man, I feel like something is lacking here? Speaker 2: I say this all the time. I say water flows from the top. So, you have to have a mentor. You have to have a coach, an instructor that's all about that, right? And so you have to have somebody that's going to connect the community together to learn from. You know, and we have our students come on the mat. Every student that gets on the mat, they walk around the mat and they shake everybody's hands, right? Because class is starting, they walk around, fist bump or shake everybody's hand. When people walk in, our staff, our instructors, our front desk personnels, we all say hello. We all say greet each other by names. I think that's what's missing. I've been to some schools where I went on teaching or even visiting. What's funny is like, it's so quiet. People just kind of walk in and sit on the mat, whether they're stretching or you may have one or two people kind of in the corner talking to themselves. The instructor, the coach walks in, kind of teaches his class, and class is over and everybody just kind of picks up and goes home, right? I think the social interaction is lacking there. I think it needs to like, I have a lot of guys that come in, they're they're introverts in the beginning. But as they start training, as they start spending more time on the mats, they kind of come out of their shell. They're able to see them smiling more. They're interacting. They're playing around. So I think within the confines of the mat, I think people need to have this attitude of like, okay, these are my friends. I'm here to hang out, not only just to train. They need to be a little more open. Again, it may be hard for some introverts to do that, but I think if they open themselves up to do that a little bit more, the connections are going to be there. On and off the mats because you never know who's on the mats. You know, you've got we always say, you know, you got criminals training with the cops, the doctors with this. So, sometimes I know like jobs, I mean, our guys have uh I got hired because, oh, I just graduated from college. I was like, oh, you know what? He's the CEO of this company. I'm going to actually get you an interview. Like, that type of deal. So the connection you make on the mats is going to carry off the mats too. So I think the the personality trait needs to be worked on a little bit more on the mats. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And the beauty of Jiu-Jitsu is the diverse crowd that it attracts. My background is working in technology and at the end of the day, you wind up it's very homogeneous. Like when you're working in there, you get a lot of people with very similar personality types and belief systems and values. And that's fine. But you don't realize how much of a problem that is until you step out of that bubble. Because when you go to Jiu-Jitsu, I mean, as much as it is a meme, it is true that Jiu-Jitsu is is a place where all sorts of different types of people meet up. I mean, I have uh one of my favorite stories is I got my ass handed to me by Andrew Wilson, the CEO of Electronic Arts, beat my ass, right? Because he's a I believe now a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu, right? I mean, a lot of different types of people train Jiu-Jitsu and you'll be amazed if you do this long enough at the different types of people that you meet in this sport because it's one of the most diverse collective places that you can find. At least if it's done properly. I mean, I know there's places that struggle to achieve this, but if done properly, the cool thing about Jiu-Jitsu is that you get to meet people that you never would normally meet in your first or second places, like at work or at home. Speaker 2: Oh, oh, 100%. And I think it's a place of equality, meaning whatever your status, your title, your net worth, it really doesn't matter because once you get on the mat, we all put on our ghee. You know, it's like we're cleansing ourselves. We'll put our ghee on, no ghee, rash guard, whatever it is. We're all out there. Only thing that really matters is, okay, your Jiu-Jitsu, are you going to be able to survive? Your attitude, how are you going to deal with this loss or somebody tapping you or losing? And I think that's what creates a bond because you're not making friends with somebody just because they live in the same neighborhood or they're in the same country club as you are or you guys went to the same school. No, you're meeting people through the mutual benefits of Jiu-Jitsu and, you know, it ends up being this guy could be a CEO of a large tech company. This guy could be the judge of uh our local courts here. Like, you just never know, but it's the genuine connection, I think. You see what I mean? Like, once we take off whatever we have in the outside world, once we step on the mat, we're all equal. It doesn't matter. I don't care what kind of car you drive, we're all equal. Speaker 1: The other thing too about Jiu-Jitsu is that um I mean, ultimately at the end of the day, it's about trust, right? You and I are simulating a fight with where the logical outcome is that one of us gets badly hurt. But we trust each other to train safely and to not hurt the other person. So really you are putting yourself in the most vulnerable situation that a human being can put themselves in. And you're trusting the other person to not take advantage of that. And I think that that activity bonds you to people in a way that the rest of the world just doesn't, right? I mean, I don't think you can achieve that kind of bond by sharing office space with a person. There's a a level of trust involved in I gave you every opportunity to hurt me and I trust you not to do that. That changes your relationship with that person. Speaker 2: I think even more so like Jiu-Jitsu and grappling. I mean, you can take any other martial arts like a striking martial arts. It's not as relevant in that compared to grappling martial arts. Like you're literally hugging each other, skin-to-skin contact. It's it's something that's very, you know, you're in your personal space. And I think that creates that trust and and and the bond. I think I I read it in a book once where we talked about how like wrestling and Jiu-Jitsu, a lot of grappling sports tend to have the tendency to bring people closer even compared to other martial arts systems. Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree. There's something about that proximity, right? Because in addition to the fact that we're fighting, there's also physical proximity, there's suffocation, there's like I just, you know, skin on skin. That's a very intimate situation. We don't do that much in real life. And so you are breaking down a lot of these social barriers that we erect in other parts of life. And the weird thing is, I mean, you can wind up having a closer relationship with some random white belt that you roll with than with a co-worker of 10 years just because the context is so much different, right? I mean, you can work with people for a long time and coexist but never really trust them. But being that that intimately close to someone and trusting them to be safe with you is a a huge thing. And I agree with you. I mean, getting punched and kicked sucks, but there's still a degree of distance involved there. It's different from having someone like literally trying to smother you with their chest. Speaker 2: Oh, or with their hands. Speaker 1: Yeah. Awesome. Well, this is great, man. I guess I would ask as we tie this up, any closing thoughts or things that you would suggest for people who maybe struggle with this aspect in their life. I think loneliness is a huge problem right now. Anything that you would suggest, any tips for people who either are already training Jiu-Jitsu or maybe want to get into the sport for the first time in terms of how they can connect better with the Jiu-Jitsu community and integrate better and get those benefits. Speaker 2: It's hard for me to say, especially for beginners. I mean, I think the best advice I can give is stay on the mat and you'll see you'll reap all the benefits that Jiu-Jitsu is going to throw at you. It's it's only people that don't last. And again, sometimes you can't help it, you know, life takes you certain ways or you get injured or you move or whatever happens. However, if you let go of your ego, let go of everything else and just stay on the mat, I guarantee you, they're going to reap the benefits, whatever benefits they want to reap out of Jiu-Jitsu. And Jiu-Jitsu is going to be the gateway to give it to them. Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think that lesson about staying in the game for the long haul is the important thing. That is where you see the benefits. My suggestion, especially for a lot of people earlier in their journey, is they tend to self-select themselves out of Jiu-Jitsu because they're too hard on themselves. Either they they feel like they're not good at this or they feel like they're not getting better or they feel like their teammates are better. And I just got to say, like with the perspective and the benefit of time, your personal ability in Jiu-Jitsu is actually like the least important thing about your training. Unless your goal is to be like the next Gordon Ryan. But for the vast majority of people, even competitors, your actual like individual performance is not that important. And in fact, if you obsess too much over it, it can really disenfranchise you and make you fall out of love with the sport and you might start hating something that you otherwise would love. The reality is, for all of us, you know, give it 10 or 20 years and you're not going to be great at Jiu-Jitsu anyway. Like we all get older and we will all have that day where some roided up 20-year-old white belt comes in and beats your ass. It's art of life. So obsessing too much about whether you're good, you're not going to see life benefits if the only thing you care about is am I tapping other people in the gym or on the mats, right? Ultimately, staying in the game and even if that means, I think you touched on this nicely, even if it means just showing up to the gym and hanging out, that in itself has massive benefits because that's what keeps you connected and social. I mean, if people when they get injured, they always freak out and say, I can't train, I can't do Jiu-Jitsu. Yeah, you can. Maybe physically you can't, but you can still go to the gym, you can watch, you can socialize, you can keep the habit alive. And that matters more than you think. Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, socializing again, just touching back like our Friday nights, I have a coach that teaches Friday night. Friday nights are pretty cool because everybody brings beer. Whether your gym allows that or not, we do. So, they Friday nights, everybody comes in, trains, and man, they have happy hour. Like 6:30 to 7:30 and then they train for about 30 minutes. Everybody just hangs out. I mean, we'll probably have 30, 40 people that show up and they'll just come hang out and uh drink some beers and everybody connects together. And I think that that kind of deal, I mean, I didn't create that. Students created that. And they're like, is it okay for us to hang out? I'm like, of course. That's what I want you guys to do. I think, you know, uh creating an environment where that is welcomed is the place that you want to be at. Speaker 1: Well said, man. Well, let's talk about your work here. If people want to follow you, where can they do that? Speaker 2: I'm on all social media channels, uh at Kenny Kim BJJ. Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, all of that good stuff. So, yep, the Kenny Kim BJJ.com. Speaker 1: The usual suspects. And I I want to get you back on with uh Chris Wojcik to talk about this more from a business perspective later, but let's talk about some of the books, both the the one that's already out, the your original one, and also the the new one that you've got as well, just in case people are interested. Speaker 2: Yeah, so uh the original Mat Made book, it's available only on Kindle right now. The paperbacks are all sold out on Amazon. And then the new book that Chris and I co-published, it's called the Jiu-Jitsu Millionaire. How to basically how to run a profitable academy and it's just basically systematized way of like, everything that I've done in the past 20 years. Top, you know, and we talk about from how to clean the mats to how to market, how to have a system in place from, you know, students enrolling into taking his first class to everything and anything you need to know about running a gym. It's in that book. It's basically, you know, a blueprint. And it may not have the nitty-gritty, you know, details of like how to do things, but it's a broader spectrum of like, this is what you should be working on. Like, you should have a system where you have this, that, and that. And so, I think it's whether you're a academy owner or a prospect that wants to own a gym, a student, even it's just a business book. So I think it's kind of open to anybody and everybody. Speaker 1: Amazing, man. Well, I think a lot of people in the Jiu-Jitsu community, of course, everyone has different passionate interests, but the one thing I know is if they can find someone who's a Jiu-Jitsu guy and they can learn from them, that's always going to be something that they're interested in. So I will link all of that in the show notes. And yeah, I would I would love to have you and uh Chris Wojcik back on to talk about that at some point. I'm I think people who listen to this know, I'm really passionate about the business side of Jiu-Jitsu, the thing we're probably best known here for is the educational side. But I also like to expand on that and talk about how we can make a living out of this sport where a lot of people do struggle to do that, especially that, you know, we we live in weird, volatile, strange, uncertain times. And any knowledge or insights that we can provide that will help people survive and thrive during those situations. That's really my goal. So I'd love to have you guys back on to talk about that. But in the interim, if people want to check that out, I will put links to all of your stuff, uh both the books and the social in the show notes. Definitely recommend giving Kenny a follow. I'll also put a link to all of our stuff. It all lives at BJJMentalModels.com. Main full-length episodes of the podcast are all completely free. Our mini episode breakdowns are free. Our newsletter is free. Definitely recommend checking out all of those. And I think everyone knows, but the next level up with us is BJJ Mental Models Premium. We're building the world's largest library of audio style content in Jiu-Jitsu. If you are a fan of Audible and MasterClass and arm bars, and you want to you want a way to tie all of that together, that's what our service is for. We've got some amazing courses and ongoing podcasts in there. So if you prefer learning through audio, we've got a really unique way of delivering that up. All of that's at BJJMentalModels.com. But I will put a link to that and to Kenny, your stuff in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for doing this, man. This is a really cool chat. I appreciated you coming by. Speaker 2: Awesome, man. Amazing. I really appreciate you having me on. I'm looking forward to coming back on with Chris to talk about our book. And uh yes, I appreciate you. Speaker 1: Amazing. Appreciate the listeners too. Great to chat with you guys every week and we will talk to you soon.