#351: Jake Luigi: Creativity, Content Creation, and Burn Out | Less Impressed More Involved

Speaker 1: I suck at Jiu-Jitsu. Speaker 2: What's up, bro? Speaker 1: I guess it's such less. Jake, how've you been, buddy? Speaker 2: I'm doing great. How are you, Josh? Speaker 1: I'm good. I'm glad that you're here. We're getting to talk. Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's nowhere I'd rather be, so I'm excited for this. Speaker 1: Me too, dude. I am uh um yeah, we were just maybe like two days ago messaging on Instagram and I'm like, ah, we're talking about too much stuff. We've got three conversations going with each other. We should just we should do a podcast. Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's the signal that it's time. But I I think that last that last conversation, my uh my student came to me and she was like, hey, I'm I'm interested in learning like listening to some Jiu-Jitsu podcasts outside of class. And I gave her a long list of podcasts and about a week or two later, she came and uh she said she was listening to one of your hot takes like episodes and she said it was her favorite. So Speaker 1: All right. All right. I will assume that that student is racist and sexist and just an all-around bad person like myself, you know? I would assume that that would be the the reason. Speaker 2: That's the target market. Speaker 1: Yeah, that she was a I would I assume that's all my listeners, right? I don't Yeah, I don't at least that's what I hear. That's what I hear is that's that's what they say. Speaker 2: They're a very loyal group. They're a good target market. Very loyal. Speaker 1: I I wanted to ask you, what videos have you been or even if not videos, but concepts have you been excited about lately that you've put out? Speaker 2: Um, I've been studying a lot about making connection from open guard. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 2: Um, so I recently did like a deep dive on seated stuff and now I'm trying to figure out like, you know, the the supine or like from your back, um, type of connection. Um, but yeah, this has been kind of my main focus of study for the past like month or so. Speaker 1: That's cool. What what made you start to focus on that? Speaker 2: Yeah, so I went to uh San Diego and got to train with P.J. Barch and just got my guard destroyed. So, um, like going into that trip, there were a couple people in the Discord that were interested in turtle. So I was planning to start like a turtle study when I got back from that San Diego trip, but all I could think about was I need to make my guard better. So the turtle uh is on the back burner for now and uh I've just tried to like focus on like guard retention, um specifically through like north-south, like people were just, you know, just running through my guard by going like north-south and using like outside passing. So just trying to get better at retaining my guard and then, you know, going into offense off of that retention and and making some good connections to do that. So that's been my main focus since I got back from San Diego. Speaker 1: Interesting. What were you focused on before that? Speaker 2: Before that, it was a lot of back stuff. Like I was I was trying to focus a lot on like grip fighting from the back. Um, and different like leg configurations that um would give you the control that you would need to help you in that grip fight. So like one thing that I've been focused a lot on, I don't know if you've heard of like this term, but I've heard it called a side body triangle where like basically it's a top side body triangle, but your foot instead of being on the outside of the legs is on the inside of the legs and it's hooking their bottom leg. Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Speaker 2: Yeah. So, um, this I think is like something I've I've really started to use more. I saw um, like the amount of times from like an EBI overtime type round where you start on the back and the defender just like throws their back to the overhook side and gets their back to the mat to escape. This happens so much. And in PGF, Jet Thompson would like when they throw their back to the overhook side, your bottom hook gets a bit shallow. So what I used to do is throw my top hook long and try and like cross my feet over their far hip or maybe try and do like a, you know, forward hip escape or forward shrimp to kind of like switch sides or whatever. Um, but what Jet does is with that shallow bottom hook, he locks the side body triangle and like hooks their bottom leg and it makes it like impossible for them to get their back down to the mat. So I've started to use this especially um like when entering the back and you have a shallow bottom hook or maintaining the back and you have a shallow bottom hook or when you're doing um like grip fighting methods to get to a rear naked choke, when you have to like you have like your top arm as a strangle arm and you prop up on your bottom elbow. You know what I'm talking about? Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, like a lot of times when I was doing that, they would get their back down to the mat, kind of like take advantage of that space because my head kind of drifts out of position. So, I know I'm getting like pretty technical. But like Speaker 1: No, I'm I'm understanding where you're at. Speaker 2: Yeah. So like when you do the elbow prop method with the side body triangle, it makes it hard for them to get their back to the mat to exploit the space um that you give them by propping up on your elbow and I've had a ton of success with this, like using the side body triangle to do that. I don't think it's like the most robust form because they can like clear it relatively easily, like using some leg assists. So like sometimes it's more of like a maintenance thing and then you like transition to a normal like top body triangle for like more control. But uh yeah, I've really enjoyed trying to like experiment with different leg positions and then like different grip fighting battles from the back. That was my main focus before um San Diego. Speaker 1: The Jiu-Jitsu mats are really gross. If you really think about it. I try to not think about it. I've actually run into this problem of writing commercials for my friends at Sports Hygiene. It's so hard to write commercials because if I just really am honest with people and we all just sat for a second and we think about how gross the Jiu-Jitsu mats are. And we just really we marinate on that thought in the same way that we marinate on all of the body fluids of our friends. And then you hear about a product from Sports Hygiene. You hear about their product Full Guard. And you hear about this idea of hypochlorous acid and how it can literally kill ringworm, it can kill staff, and it is good for your skin biome. And this idea that there is a spray that you could literally spray on in between rounds to protect your body from the grossness of the Jiu-Jitsu mats is unbelievable. And it just so happens that they love the I Suck at Jiu-Jitsu show and want to give a promo code to you guys and that is promo code I SUCK. And so at checkout, when you are getting your case of Full Guard to just douse your body in because of how gross the mats are, be sure to use promo code I SUCK at checkout. Let's get back to the episode. So, when you're choosing a focus, is it usually coming from something like the experience you had in San Diego or is it coming from something like with the back? Is it something you saw? What what kind of chose that focus? Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm I'm kind of in an interesting position in the sense that like a lot of the training partners here don't expose a lot of my weaknesses. So like a lot of times what I'm interested in comes from me just like doing my daily like entering data into the database and I see something really cool and I'm like, man, that is exciting. I want to dive deeper into that. So that's typically how my interests come about, but I think it hit me harder when it was exposed by someone who is much better than me, you know, like after that San Diego trip, I came back like and the first thing I did was like guard retention from north-south. Like how do I figure this out? Um, whereas when I see something that I'm excited about, I'm not necessarily like I need to solve this right now, you know. So I think that uh the fear motivation is much stronger than the uh, you know, like the desire motivation, you know. Speaker 1: Of course. Of course. And so is what has been your remedy is I mean, I know other people feel this way too of like I don't have good training partners in proximity. Um, obviously you have to, you know, take a swim to find, you know, training partners to expose these holes. So is the only answer that you found taking trips to, you know, places where you can get better training? Speaker 2: To be honest, I don't even do that very much, like maybe once a year. So, um, I wouldn't say it's like the solution that I've I've found. Um, and to be honest, I don't necessarily portray myself as someone who's like good at Jiu-Jitsu. So I feel like this is um, like I'm not trying to pretend like I'm someone I'm not, you know. So, um, I don't think it's necessarily like super important for the stage of life that I'm in just because it's so difficult for me to like travel. Um, so I've kind of just like accepted that this might not be like the skill development time of my life and it's more of like the build um, like the platform that I'm working on and try and help people in other ways as opposed to just trying to make myself as good as Jiu-Jitsu as I can be. Um, but it does kind of go hand in hand. Like I need to improve myself and constantly be trying to get better to, you know, keep my finger on the pulse and give people useful content and material for them to study. So, um, I do think it's kind of like a battle I'm I'm juggling, but that's kind of the mindset that I've approached it with, like most most of my excitement these days comes from watching professionals do something um as opposed to me like getting exposed or like um, traveling to train with people who are better than me, you know, kind of thing. Speaker 1: That makes that that makes a lot of sense, but it does seem like for you that your excitement goes hand in hand with your um, the things that you're doing even in the the other spaces. Would you agree? Like the more excited you are about Jiu-Jitsu, it seems like the more motivated you are on your YouTube channel or in your other areas? Speaker 2: Oh, 100%. Um, I would say like right now we're in like a bit of a maintenance phase as far as like um, the business goes, like my database goes, in the sense that like we're not adding any new features, we're just trying to make stuff like more efficient right now, um, and kind of clean things up um, from like a coding perspective to optimize it a bit more. So, it's not very exciting, you know, like that part is not very exciting. Speaker 1: Of course. Speaker 2: It's more exciting when you're launching new features and I'm like stoked to make a YouTube video to show people like how to navigate the database and use these new features to improve. But uh, like right now it's definitely I've leaned more into getting excited about Jiu-Jitsu, um, to keep me motivated to, you know, um, keep making content and keep um, kind of building the database even though it's, you know, not in a like growth stage right now. Um, so yeah, it's kind of like sometimes one area is the motivating factor and then sometimes another area is the motivating factor, but they all kind of like go in the same direction if that makes sense. Speaker 1: Yeah, that that does. Do you as somebody who creates content, do you find especially that creates and I'm like that creates teaching content. Do you find that there is like a difference in the mindset that you need to share something on YouTube than than the mindset you need to learn something on the mat for yourself? Or do you feel like they're kind of the same perspective? Speaker 2: Like initially my thought goes to it's a different perspective, um, but both are necessary in the sense that like, like I mean, when you're just like watching an instructional, you kind of like understand understand it on a conceptual level, but then when you do it, you it doesn't turn out the way you thought, so then you go rewatch it and then you go redo it. So they kind of like, you know, um, that like ping-pong effect of like going back and forth between the two. I think it's helpful. And I pretty much never make a YouTube video about something that I haven't tried personally, you know. Speaker 1: That makes sense. Speaker 2: It's like I see something, I go try it, I see where I ran into like problems and then I go rewatch it, try and find other examples to kind of like, you know, fill in the gaps and then once it's kind of like more clear in my mind, I think it helps me explain it better, um, because I've been through it myself, you know. So, I do think it's important to not only watch but like do it, you know, to kind of see um, gives gives you like a a better perspective to teach it from, you know. Speaker 1: That yeah, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense to me. Do you find that do you find that your that that when you're sharing things online that you kind of I guess I guess this is a better way to say it. Do you find that your um, uh your training a lot of the time is a piece of your content creation because that's kind of how you put it in. Obviously, it's not the only reason that you're training, you were training before that. But in a sense of um, how you said like if you're going to put out a video, it was like one of the stages of you putting out a video is you going into the gym and actually trying that thing and actually trying to get it to work. And so is that always just a stage of your of your content creation? Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think um, I'll answer this question like on a like kind of surface level, but I think it goes like pretty deep. Um, because it's something I've been Speaker 1: Why don't you just answer it on a deep level for us then, bro? Why you got to keep it a secret? Speaker 2: That's I'll get there. The anticipation is good for views. Speaker 1: Okay, you're right. You're right. Sorry. I I forgot. You're hey, trust me. You're you're getting way more views than me. I'm going to listen to you on this one. You just go. Sorry, my bad. My bad, coach. Speaker 2: So on a on a surface level, um, I think I have like two different types of videos that I generally make. The first type, which is um, just kind of like I watch an event and I say some stuff I saw during the event, which isn't necessarily what I'm working on currently during my training. It's just like some um, thing that I thought would be helpful to point out um, that I noticed that happened during an event. So that's one type of video, way easier to make, way faster. Um, the second type of video is like a deep dive into a given position and those types of videos I spend at like probably at least a month, like this is what I'm working on in my training and then I make my north-south passing video. I make my seated open guard video. I make whatever video I make on a given topic, um, those tend to be much more like battle tested and uh takes me a lot of time um, to make. But uh, yeah, like I don't know if I'm too clear on these like as we dive deeper into this. I don't think I'm too clear on this. I've been thinking a lot about it, but like just the idea of like um, like humans always like novelty and like something new and this is kind of what you seek in life is like you're always trying to like shake things up and give yourself new experiences, try new food, whatever, um, to kind of keep things interesting. But like in Jiu-Jitsu and in like business, it's more about like blocking out all of those like distractions and trying to focus on like the thing that you're working on. Like no novelty, this is what we're doing, you know. Um, so I think this is difficult for a lot of people to do. Um, and this is something I've been trying to get better at, especially on like the business side of things, but I've found it difficult in Jiu-Jitsu as well when I'm like studying something and then you see something cool and you're like, oh, I want to try that, you know. Um, so yeah, like just the idea of like balancing the novelty versus like diving deep because like in business like the battle is won and like in the details, you know, like you need to get everything right, make everything like as simple and smooth as possible and you don't need to do everything, you just need to do this one thing well. Um, and it kind of applies for Jiu-Jitsu as well to some degree, like just get really good at your game and then do that, you know. Um, so yeah, this is something I've I've struggled with like as far as like my own training because like after I release a video, you have to make the next video. And it's like, well, maybe I I'm not done with my, you know, training in this area, but now I'm like have to make a new video to keep the algorithm happy, you know. Speaker 1: You're a slave to the algorithm. Speaker 2: Exactly. Speaker 1: Dude. That's rough. Speaker 2: So Speaker 1: Hey guys, Josh here. I've been getting so much good feedback from the Rob Bernacki instructional Jiu-Jitsu for Imbeciles that we have been giving away for free. But I have bad news. We're about to switch the free giveaway from our friends at BJJ Mental Models. And so if you have not gotten Rob Bernacki's Jiu-Jitsu for Imbeciles, this is a conceptual course on learning Jiu-Jitsu. And the amount of feedback that people have felt the need to give me. I didn't create this course, but still to tell me how much it has helped them has been so interesting. I mean, pretty quickly it made me go, oh, this is this is something that I should start to pay attention to even more than I realized. People love Rob Bernacki's way of explaining Jiu-Jitsu. And like I said, this is the last time we are running a commercial for this course. And so the next free giveaway is about to change um in the coming weeks. But for right now, you can still get your free copy of Jiu-Jitsu for Imbeciles at BJJmentalmodels.com/isuck. And be sure to check the link in the description and get in on that free course. Let's get back to the episode. Speaker 2: Yeah, this is uh I think like the the where it gets a little deeper in the sense that like sometimes I have to modify my training to make the algorithm happy. Um, when I don't necessarily think it would be the best for my skill development. Speaker 1: That makes sense. I think that that is I think the sacrifice I I I'm sure a lot of people don't understand that from a content creation perspective, but I'm sure a lot of coaches understand that. Um, a lot of, you know, a lot of coaching is sacrificing your own training. And it's weird because you want to be a coach because you love Jiu-Jitsu. And so then you create the scenario where you're around it, but maybe necessarily you don't get to train it. And you're like and you don't get to focus in the way that you like. That is um, yeah, that was something I was talking about on the podcast uh that came out today and it was just the idea of I always talk about how you need to have focus, you need to, you know, be really mindful about your training, but every once in a while, you need to go into training and just be like, dude, I just need to train, you know, because Jiu-Jitsu's fun, you know, and that's a it's just hard because as a guy that does Jiu-Jitsu business stuff all the time, sometimes actually getting to Jiu-Jitsu takes the back burner the most and that's like the most frustrating part. Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, and I think this is it goes back to like the balance of what you're talking about or what I was talking about about like the novelty and like keeping things like fun versus trying to like optimize everything and and and improve. Like sometimes you just need to make it fun, you know. Um, and like again, like it's it's difficult I think to like turn the switch on and off because like when I was starting the business, like everything is like, you know, do one thing, do it well and like in and like hyper focus like if something is wrong, you need to like hyper focus on that thing that's wrong and like fix it. Whereas like in your life or like in your relationship with your partner or whatever, it's like you want to let the little things go. Like don't sweat it, you know, like try something new. So it's like in one area of your life, it's like the complete opposite as like your actual life that you're trying to like, you know. So it's like, yeah, it's it's trying to improve but like keep it fun, you know, it's it's it's a difficult balance I think sometimes. Speaker 1: What's the solution? Speaker 2: Keep trying. I don't know. I I wish I could tell you. I'm still I'm still thinking through it right now. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: What do you think? Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. I I completely agree though. I agree that that's a um a frustrating part of life is that um, you know, it's like there's not enough time to do the things you want. I feel like maybe it's it's being a new dad and you know, I don't know what it is, but something for me that has changed is I've made this acceptance of like, man, I guess if I want to do these things, it's just going to be really, really hard, you know? I like I for whatever reason, I decided that I didn't want to just have a Jiu-Jitsu school and just be happy. I wanted to have three and I wanted to do the podcast and I wanted to do all this other crap. And it's like, you know, and there is more of a big plan to those things, but I'm like, I guess if I'm going to do these things, I really just it's going to be a sacrifice of I'm not going to let it be my sanity, but it's going to be a sacrifice of most other things, you know? And so that's kind of been my acceptance is like, yeah, it's a problem, you know? I don't know. We'll just, you know, we'll figure it out um, when we're I I guess through it when we're in the middle of it, but uh, yeah, I see it as a problem too. It's it's an odd one too. It's a it feels a lot like a first world problem, but I'm in it too. So, um, I completely sympathize with it and I'm like, yeah, dude, it's weird. You, you know, and and also a a part of this too is I have very few interactions with people where that person doesn't want something from me. Um, of some sort. And that's okay, like that's a I have a lot of interactions with people where I want something from them. And so that's I I understand, but I know that that isn't the life that most people have. A lot of people get to have interactions where they just have friends, you know? And it's it can be hard, not to say that I don't have friends, but it just can be hard to have that because most of your relationships are built on business, are built on, you know, whatever. And so, yeah, it can be a it can be a weird lonely battle to sit in your basement and be a content creator, you know? Speaker 2: For sure. Yeah, I'm I'm not going to say any like and it definitely wasn't um at P.J.'s school. Um, so just to set that out there, but like um, another school that I visited, my instructor um from back in California, when I trained in California, he was meeting me out there and he got there a couple days before me. And then I showed up with him, like a couple days after he'd been training. And like everyone's, you know, super nice and like, you know, very uh talkative and everything. And then after class, he came up to me and was like, they were not like that the first two days when you were not here. Yeah. And I it like it kind of hit me like people are nice because they want me to make a video about them, potentially. You know? So, um, yeah, it's just kind of like it was nice to hear that from him in the sense that like sometimes I'm kind of like blind to it. Like, oh, everyone's just super nice all the time, you know, like in reality, it's like if you're just a normal person, no one cares, you know, they're just like, you're fresh meat to them when you walk into the school, like let's see if I can beat this guy, you know. Um, so yeah, I feel you. Speaker 1: Of course. Yeah, and so yeah, it it is just a it is just a weird part of, you know, and the Jiu-Jitsu space too because the Jiu-Jitsu space it doesn't take much to be able to walk into a gym and people go, hey, I know who that is, you know? And and again, just that that idea of like, oh, I want something from you. You get so many cool opportunities, you know, there's so much um, so many opportunities I've gotten that I go, oh, I would have never ever gotten this if I didn't have a podcast. Speaker 2: I wouldn't trade it for the world. I love it. Speaker 1: No. Um, I would trade it for the world. I would trade it for $1 million. I would trade it for any seven-figure number without a doubt. I would trade it for a lot of six-figure numbers for that matter. Um, and yeah, and never look back. Not even think twice about it, you know? Um, maybe one day I would start the I Suck at Jiu-Jitsu show, but yeah, I would uh, you know, I I I I appreciate the people that listen, but dude, if you wanted if any of you wanted to have the if you wanted this podcast for $1 million or less, I would probably take it. I would probably I'd be in. Speaker 2: Agreed. I'm I'm at that price too. Speaker 1: Okay, okay. Okay, so then the world was that was a little much. Speaker 2: It's an exaggeration. Yes. Speaker 1: Okay. Okay, so the world's on fire. You're not saving less and press more involved YouTube channel. Speaker 2: For sure. Speaker 1: Okay, that's solid. Um, let me look at let me actually go to one of the questions that I have written again. Speaker 2: Actually, before you before you do, I might uh one thing, um, you were talking about like balancing the novelty and the uh like trying to get better and like hyper focusing on one thing. One thing that we've been experimenting with, um, is what you've been talking about with having like one performance day a week. And I found this to be pretty helpful in this regard where it's like, hey, you come in today, you're not thinking about anything, you're just here to like scrap, you know. Um, so I think this has been a good way to balance it, you know. Speaker 1: Dude, that helps me so much is um, because it doesn't I don't know. It just it takes it literally it helps you by taking the pressure off the other days. You don't go in there while anyone is really trying to prove anything or you're just all trying to get better. And um, that for me is that is the environment that's so that I want to be in each night, you know, when I'm going to train. And then if I go to somebody's open mat or something like that, I'm happy to go and and just fight to the death. But like a lot of the times with my guys, I'm like, I'm training with my specific training partners that are my favorite and most nights that I know aren't going to beat up my body and I know we're going to get a million reps. And then I'm like, okay, it's time to go. Now it's time to fight my juiced up buddies, you know? It's time to fight the super soldiers. And so that is uh, yeah, that's been so helpful for me too. I I I kind of thought of it as only a competitive thing and then I started to realize I talked to other people, they're like, hey, I I I don't ever compete and I started doing that and it helped Jiu-Jitsu for me too. And so I'm like, oh, cool. Speaker 2: Yeah, I never thought about it, um, like I always thought about it kind of in like the competition mindset as well of like the performance days are helping you get better for competition. But like you said, it also takes the pressure off the other days, so it kind of goes um, both ways where it makes the it more fun to hyper focus on something and develop skill and it also um, gives you that novelty that you just like have that day where you come in and you just, you know, you're here to win. So, um, yeah, I've I've really enjoyed it. Speaker 1: Good. Speaker 2: And I think my students have as well. Speaker 1: Good. Bro, have you downloaded my free ebook? Speaker 2: I have not yet. Speaker 1: What? What are you it's all about performance, it's all about this stuff. It's honestly more about what to do on the non-performance days. Um, and how to structure your training for that. Um, but uh, and then it's just a lot of like talk telling you you probably should do steroids, you know? You should probably be on the juice. Um, Speaker 2: Performance days, every day. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Well, think about it. Performance enhanced days, you know? That's the best day. Be honest. How many times have you trained your butt off for a tournament and then stepped onto the mat feeling off? Heart racing, legs heavy, your brain fog. You didn't gas out, you just didn't show up as you. That's what my new book, The Competitor's Journey, fixes. It's six weeks of clarity for your next training camp, knowing exactly how to train, peak, and perform when it matters. Inside this handbook, you're going to find three complete Jiu-Jitsu training camps. One for if you're a pro, one if for if you're trying to be a pro, and one if you can only dedicate two hours a week to Jiu-Jitsu, but you still got that dog in you and you want to compete. If that interests you, head to simplifyingjiujitsu.com/comp and pick up your copy of The Competitor's Journey, which is completely free for I Suck at Jiu-Jitsu Show listeners. So, if you are tired of leaving your best rounds in the gym only to suck on competition day, then go to the link in the description, download it, and change the way that you look at competition forever. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not that nothing personal with the ebook thing. I just I've been like um, it's very hard for me now to do stuff where I can't enter what I'm working on into the database to like uh add more data. And basically all that is is YouTube videos. So, if you go on to the database and search Josh McKinney, you'll see all your podcasts where you've talked about it. Um, because I've entered those, but I can't enter ebooks into the database. So, Speaker 1: Okay. Okay, so I'll turn it into a YouTube video then. I guess that's the only answer. That's the only answer. Um, so is there any just on this note. I ask you this the last time we talked, um, before we really do move on. Do you have any other places um that you've gotten to train that have been just really beneficial or coaching experiences or just any interaction for you that you got a benefit out of? Speaker 2: Well, we already kind of talked about the San Diego trip, but I I really enjoyed that trip um overall. We got to train at um, like many gyms. We didn't train at Atos, but we got to talk to Andre um Galvao for a while and he is the nicest person. Speaker 1: Really? Speaker 2: Like it was so cool. Like I was I didn't really know what to expect and uh he was amazing. Um, but just as far as like training environments go, I really liked 10th Planet South Bay, which is P.J.'s school and it happened to be the time that uh Dima and Owen Jones were there as well to give their seminar. So, um, P.J. taught, um, Dima taught and kind of got to experience different styles of teaching. And one thing um, Dima does and Joseph Chen talks about it quite a bit too is just the idea of like um, communicating with your partner and um, just talking with them about ways to deal with certain resistance or um, have them give certain resistance if you would like them to do that, um, during the like tinkering phase of like drilling, I guess you could say. But uh, yeah, like I've taken that and applied it um, like right away when I got um, back. So, yeah. Um, I don't necessarily know how effective it is because like like for new new people because like a lot of times the conversations that like beginner people have are not very constructive, you know. Whereas like my partners um, like I trained with like Keith Krikorian, you know, you know who this is? Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, and he was talking about how with his athletes, like a lot of times these days it's glamorized to build your brand and to build your brand, you want to be exciting. Um, but at the end of the day, like we want to win, you know? So like there's different ways to approach competition. Are you approaching it from like a win perspective or are you approaching it from like a brand value perspective? Um, and he talked about how like Adele, um, in ADCC, it was I forget who it was, but whoever she was going against hadn't been submitted for like eight years or something like that and he's like, we're not going to be the ones to do it, you know, like just play smart, win this match, you know, don't do anything crazy. Um, so there's times to build your brand value and then there's times to win by points and uh, yeah, I think it's just more nuanced, you know, than gay versus not gay. Speaker 1: Going to be a good yeah, that's a constructive conversation. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if it was much more and I also wouldn't be surprised if um, it wasn't like that, you know, but I would say uh, that's kind of what I'm shooting for. But like I don't I don't think about that too much if I'm being honest. Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's that's a really cool goal. I just uh that was just obviously my curiosity on these things too. Um, do you um, dude, the instructional thing's so tough too because there are a million instructionals out, you know, and more being added every day. And so, yeah, that's a that's a tough thing. It's it's I like that you what you're doing is such a unique thing, you know? Who is your direct competitor for the outlier database, you know? Speaker 1: Exactly. Speaker 2: Like there's really, you know, nobody. You guys are doing your own thing and if it's cool, people will do it. If it's not, I suppose you'll start an OnlyFans, you know? I don't I don't know. I don't know what you'll do. And so, uh, we'll you'll cross that bridge when you come to it. Speaker 1: So, Jake, anything that you want to say to finish? Speaker 2: No, I mean, I I always enjoy our conversations. Um, I think I've told you this before, but like you're someone who I think is very up-to-date like with what's going on in Jiu-Jitsu, but also in the like tech world, you're um, like experiencing with the latest tools and stuff like this. So, um, I always love our conversations. So, um, appreciate you having me on again. Speaker 1: Man, I always I always enjoy it. I always get a valuable perspective from you, buddy. Speaker 2: Thank you. Speaker 1: Thank you for being on the show. Speaker 2: Later, Josh.