The Truth About BJJ Lineage

Speaker 1: Does BJJ lineage matter? So, your master's master, who taught who, is this important or is this just a marketing scam? Because there's people out there who find it very important. There's people out there who say it's relevant. There's people out there who bow to a photograph of a of particular men. Speaker 2: Before and after every class. Speaker 1: Yeah, and and maybe some may say that's odd. Odd or some may say it's important. That's right. So, does lineage matter? Because there's some people have some Jiu-Jitsu organizations have businesses built on that. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: And it's not just the Gracie way, you know? Um, a big piece of the puzzle, I believe is context. In terms of people want to feel a part of something and that idea of lineage enables them to feel connected. And so therefore, it is important. And then other people, hey, I don't care who your granddad is. Can I guillotine you? You know, like that's more that thinking. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: And so I've been in a lot of gyms where there are photos on the wall. And it's some people might say it's nonsense, but it's kind of cool in a way because it's there is an element to understanding the context of where you fit in this bigger picture of Jiu-Jitsu. Because it is a community. And I I do believe that learning from certain folks, it doesn't mean the knowledge is sacred, but I think for me, I also enjoy history. So, if you don't give a fuck about history, that's cool, no problem. And I also like to hear, like I I I want to talk to Fabio Gurgel and ask him, what was it like to roll with Rickson? You know, back in 1989. You know what I mean? Like there's only so many people in the world who can say that stuff. And he's one of those guys. So, if you get the opportunity to train with someone like that or learn from someone like that, I believe there's value in it. Whereas I know for some people in Jiu-Jitsu, it's totally irrelevant. So, how do you see this, Joe, when you think about the idea of lineage in Jiu-Jitsu and how it's used in terms of like a marketing ploy? Is it a scam? Is it important? What do you think? Speaker 2: I um, yeah, I I I like it. I like it as a concept. I think that I think that similar to the chat, you know, the the recent episode we just did about um, you know, comparing the the sort of differences in gi and no-gi and like gi's got a bit more framework and a bit more technicality and hierarchy, you know, structure to it. No-gi can be a little bit sort of, you know, not can be a little bit less so. Um, you could argue that like the lineage thing is just bullshit, like it doesn't mean anything. And that would be correct, it doesn't mean anything. Because you're just learning Jiu-Jitsu from someone and, you know, you might not even be going to the classes that the head coach of your gym teaches. You're learning from some purple belt there or a brown belt or another black belt. And so it's irrelevant, right? But then if we if we discard that, it kind of also goes to that thing of like, well, let's just get rid of all the kind of anything that's like not just super science and like, like I just want to know the best Jiu-Jitsu. It's like, well, you could get that at a place, like there's probably some hardcore fucking no-gi team where there's no structure, like there's no belts, there's no bowing, there's no fucking whatever. You'll get the best Jiu-Jitsu there, but that's all you're going to get. Speaker 1: Hmm. Speaker 2: You're not getting a martial arts experience. You're not getting a sense of like a connection to something that is generational. Speaker 1: Consistent. Speaker 2: Yeah, and and you know, like I had a chat with my brother recently. My brother moved out to the country with his partner, um, I don't know, five years ago, whatever, for work. And he's like, where we, yeah, we want to get out of there. It's fucking not good here. It's super fucking hot, climate change, blah, blah, blah. We're looking to move. He's like, where do I move? And I'm like, oh, what are the options? He's like, well, you know, they're looking at different parts of this country. But he's like, there's a lot of in they were his wife works with a lot of indigenous people, right? Aboriginal Australians. And they have a strong connection to country. Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 2: And country is the the the land that you come from. Speaker 1: The mother. Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, you might not live there anymore, but you will always have that connection. You'll always go back to that land, right? And he was just reflecting on how it's beautiful that they have that and how we, the the white people, right, have thrown that away. Because it's like, you can live wherever you want. You can go fucking live in Italy. You can go live in France. That's sick. Or fuck, go, you know, whatever, live in America for a while. And it's like, well, that's really good that freedom, but you've we've lost something, right, in this we've discarded like that kind of connection to something greater. And you're like, well, what's so special about it? Well, I don't fucking know. There's a lot, there's a lot in that. But we I think we can all say, there is something special in that. And so in a way, and it's kind of maybe it's a bit of a crass kind of comparison, but I see the lineage thing can can go some way towards that. It's like it's really hard to put a value on what that is, but it gives you context to you being a part of something that's greater than yourself. Speaker 1: A sense of belonging. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah, and I yeah, and I'm I'm with you that um, having an idea of where you're from can mean a lot to people. Obviously, it's only the meaning you imbue it with, right? So, yeah, if you think it's meaningless, it is. If you think it means everything, it means everything. Speaker 2: It does, yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, but I I I think for me, even looking at um, so even 10th Planet, right, which we had talked about before, that's from the Machado line. Like if you like uh, Frank Barker, you know, he got his black belt from Eddie Bravo, but Eddie got his black belt from Jean Jacques Machado. I think I might fuck that up. Sorry, Frank. Um, but yeah, like even going to um, Speaker 2: Yeah, like that's that's pretty cool. Speaker 1: That's awesome. Speaker 2: You know, that's like you like Frank is very connected to some fucking, you know, Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Significant individuals in the world of Jiu-Jitsu. Speaker 1: And he invested his life in that. Like it means a lot to him because of how committed he is. Whereas some folks, they're like, I don't I don't I don't know. I don't care about history. I'm you know, I just saw this sick move on TikTok and now I'm here to learn that shit. So, what's bang? And and so that's okay. I was just thinking about like my auntie, my auntie uh Rosemary, who uh passed away last year. She really cared about our family's history. And she kind of tracked our genealogy and kind of oh, and so and so three generations back came from here and they traveled on a boat here and landed here and you know, some people are history buffs. They really it it means a lot. And I I think it probably it probably means more as you get older because you're you're seeking uh an understanding. You're trying to trying to how do I fit inside all this madness that is the world and society and all this stuff. And and for many people, Jiu-Jitsu is a way for them to have a different family or a different community and and I think and I and I'm not saying that this makes your Jiu-Jitsu better, but maybe it can mean more to you or you can derive a a sense of um greater connection to it by being like, I traveled to Brazil, I trained with the master and my master like that's my master's master or my coach's master. And so you feel like you're part of this thing. And and that feeling is fucking valid. Like that and if that means it keeps you in Jiu-Jitsu and you love it, that's awesome. Speaker 2: I haven't been excited about wearing a gi for some time. However, recently partnering with our chemical fight wear and I can tell you their gis feel great. The beauty of wearing a hemp gi is that they are strong, they're going to last the test of time, they're high quality, but they're light. And I would go to say that you couldn't get that kind of lightness in a cotton gi. So the beauty of that is, especially here in Australia where it's really hot during the summer, having a lightweight gi that's strong is an absolute godsend. I'm a big fan of our chemical and also the beautiful part of it is is that it's a very environmental friendly fabric to be using rather than cotton, which is energy intensive. So, if you want to get your hands on some our chemical fight wear gear, you should go check it out at ourchemical.com.au and if you use the code bulletproof 15, you'll get 15% off your purchase. Speaker 1: Yeah, to steal the hashtag of Borax Salmon. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: I guess his name, right? Speaker 2: Yeah, Borax Salmon. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Your journey matters. Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 2: He'd always say that in his I know the guy, but he always says that. But I'm like, yeah, I do I I agree with the sentiment. Speaker 1: Hmm. Speaker 2: That your journey, you know, is it it's it it it it has value if you wish it to. Speaker 1: Sure. Speaker 2: You know? I mean, I would say like um, you know, just going back to that thing about um, connection to country, right? Speaker 1: Sure. Speaker 2: It's pretty I I I'm thinking probably from a global perspective, we're we're the odd ones who don't have much connection to where we come from or really much connection to family. Speaker 1: Do you mean say being Australian? Speaker 2: Being Westerners. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 2: Because, you know, like, yeah, I hang out with my family, but you know, not it like it's it's it's not in our culture to like look look after your sick parents, right? You send them to a home. You pay for someone else to do that. Speaker 1: Potentially, yeah, there's there's a there's a consumerist Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: kind of capitalist like delegate pay for Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: that Speaker 2: To to free you up to do all these awesome things, which is go out and do more capitalism. Speaker 1: Make money and consume. Speaker 2: Make money and consume. Buy more stuff. Buy, buy, buy. Speaker 1: Buy more stuff. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Whereas like pretty much every other culture on the planet is like, no, family first. Speaker 1: You live together. Speaker 2: You know, maybe even some some place like nation first. Yeah, you look after each other. You care, you know, lots of children, grandparents. It's like it's a thing, right? Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Speaker 2: And I think that we we all vibe with that, right? It's like it's it's like when you travel to pretty much any other country and you're like, well, you the people there are so lovely. They're so nice. They welcome you in. They give you food. They don't even know you. And you're like, yeah, well, yeah, right. Like and and that's and and that's, you know, this thing of like this oblivious Westerner being like, oh, wow, like I actually met someone that was like willing to be generous with their time. Speaker 1: Right. Speaker 2: You know? Um, Speaker 1: I didn't even have to pay for it. Speaker 2: Yeah. And so in that way, I think like we crave that because we don't have it. Speaker 1: Belonging, yeah. Speaker 2: And we and so for some people, like you said before, Jiu-Jitsu gives us a little piece of that in our life. You know, whether it's the structure that we crave because we don't get the structure elsewhere, or it's that like you're part of some kind of mysticism, you know, it's a bit of Eastern philosophy Speaker 1: Sort of, yeah. Speaker 2: that's had a Brazilian taint on it. Speaker 1: Sure. Speaker 2: You know, but but it I I think it's that little glimpse into into a different sort of world view. Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I I I agree with that. I I think the reason why I wanted to bring this up is there are people out there who would say, a good friend, shout out, Benny Partisan, would say, it's a scam. It's a cult. It's bullshit. You're getting ripped off. It's not about that. I'm a business operator. I'm a business owner, gym owner. It's about providing good service, looking after your people. Now, obviously, he has an amazing gym. I I love Partisan Grappling and he's a great business owner operator. Speaker 2: And he's got a great take on a lot of things. Speaker 1: He's a great like I think his take he has a very modern take on what Jiu-Jitsu is and could be. So, let me say that. And he has a great group of people there and he's so invested, you know, to to create a great community. Um, but that exists in a very first world modern way. Whereas if you're from uh a country which doesn't necessarily have all of the resources, you may you you just get what you get. You know, and if there's even a Jiu-Jitsu school where you're from, then you just go there. And there there I think there is something too similar to what you're saying that if you're from a different culture, the element of community is part of survival. You you need you know, people need to work together because you don't necessarily have the money to just pay someone to do it for you. You know, if you've got a mate who's a mechanic, you're like, bro, can you look at my car? Because I can't afford fucking, you know, Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: $5,000 to Speaker 2: I can't afford to pay you for it. Speaker 1: No, but if you need me to come fix your house, you know, there is more of this social exchange um in places where people can't just uh exchange money for it. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's driven by necessity. Speaker 1: Right. And I'm and I don't I don't want to get too far off topic here, but I I think that when people are thinking about a greater meaning other than just doing the physical act of grappling, maybe that's the idea of lineage is where that comes in. Speaker 2: Well, you know, to speak to that point of of Benny, I think that I think that and you know, he hasn't oh, yeah, no, he has he's talked about the photos on the wall, right? And the lineage. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: And I think he's right, right? Because we've seen in Jiu-Jitsu, we've seen that be abused and leveraged. Speaker 1: Oh. Speaker 2: Right? For financial ends, for for um, for control over particular individuals. We've seen in the same way that we've seen hierarchy in Jiu-Jitsu be leveraged to abuse. Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 2: Right? Sexually and otherwise. Speaker 1: Sure. Speaker 2: So there's so power can be abused, right? And and Speaker 1: 100%. Speaker 2: you could argue in a sense that I I would argue that that then turning your back on it is to throw the baby out with the bath water. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Right? It's like I think yes, the thing can be abused, but the thing can also be something beautiful. Like that can also be awesome. The hierarchy can also be great. It can be actually what people want in their lives. It can be, you know, a a unique environment where, you know, people can see their progression and it, you know, a forementioned benefits. Um, and so in that way, like anything can be abused, right? Like just coaching Jiu-Jitsu can be is something that you can abuse if you wish to. But it can also be something really beautiful where you pass on a skill set and a whole new perspective to an individual, right? Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: So, um, so I think that it can it goes both ways. Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. And and look, the challenge is um, kind of I guess to kind of parcel it up. The the challenge for people who just don't know, you just you take it not that you take it for granted, but you're whatever gym you end up at, you generally just accept uh, you know, card blanche like, oh, this is what Jiu-Jitsu is. Because that's that's all you know. Like you're like, this is this is how it's done. And it's only once you go somewhere else, you're like, oh, oh, that was that's not cool or anything like that. Like I I did a post about Jiu-Jitsu cults. Um, just the other week. And I was saying that it's this weird paradigm, like a bit of a dichotomy. Um, where two two very different or completely opposite things are true at the same time. That we want to be different. Like we want to stand out and we want to be acknowledged as individuals and we want to all those things. But then we also want to fit in. But it's like, but I want to fit in with the cool guys. Or I want to fit in with the tough guys or like you whatever that flavor is. And often times that's where people kind of get corrupted with the kind of Jiu-Jitsu cult thing is it's like you find a unique leader and somebody who's different and they've got the knowledge or they've got the the man bun or you know, they've got that swag. You're like, dang, that's that's that's who I wish I was. And you know, it's it's almost unattainable because it's just not who you are. But then that means you get caught up in aspiring to be something you're not. And then you're thinking, I'm being more unique by being similar to fitting in with these other people. You know what I mean? There's this this strange dynamic. But I think where the idea about lineage fits into the human's idea is the idea of a tribe, a family, a community. And even though these things have been I think in uh modern day Jiu-Jitsu kind of demonized, I think in modern day society, that's what's missing. People are craving connection, people are craving community, and therefore, the idea of lineage feels good. And that and that's I'm I'm not saying it is good or it is bad, it can be both. But I I see that the social media and technology has created a hole. It's created a rift. It's it's separated us. Even though it's connected us by staring at our phones, it's not connected us personally. And we've talked about how Jiu-Jitsu connects us physically and then these ideas of lineage and ancestry, what have you, whether you think it's bullshit or not, gives you this idea of greater connection because we're missing it. Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Speaker 1: All right, folks, what do you think? Lineage? Is it the truth or is it bullshit?