Ep. 347: The ABCs of Mental Coaching, feat. Laurien Zurhake

Speaker 1: Hey everybody, before we get started this week, I have huge news. She actually did it. We're pleased to announce that Beatrice Jin, top-ranked women's competitor in North America and long-time BJJ Mental Models premium community member, has published her first ever course with us, exclusive to BJJ Mental Models. It's called Stop Being Nice. It's a three-part audio series designed to solve real mindset problems that regular folks experience in Jijitsu. If you struggle to be aggressive and competitive in Jijitsu, you'll find the solutions here. If you're already a BJJ Mental Models premium subscriber, you've already got access, and if you are not, good news, you can get it now and get your first week free. Go to BJJ Mental Models.com and check it out today. Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to BJJ Mental Models. I'm Steve Kwan. BJJ Mental Models is your guide to a conceptual and intelligent Jijitsu approach. And today, I've got a visitor all the way from Germany. I've got Lorene Zurhaki on the line. Lorene, my friend, how's it going? Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here and I'm doing great. Thank you. And yourself? Speaker 1: I am excited to have this chat. We've been looking to get this one done for a while. But first, maybe before we dig into the topic, why don't you quickly introduce yourself and your work? Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. So, my name is Lorene. Originally, I'm Dutch, but I have now my own trauma-informed martial arts and yoga school with my husband in Munich, Germany. And actually, through COVID, when many gyms had to close, we as well. Many people started losing members, but we gained members for our trauma-informed program and people started asking more about what are you doing? How come you actually gain members? And then we thought after the fifth or the sixth person asked to create off the zone, and that's where we offer trauma-informed coaching programs for coaches, business owners, athletes, so that they can make their practice or their gym also trauma-informed. Speaker 1: And just for clarity's sake, in addition to the gym, just to confirm, a lot of the stuff that you do, I believe is remote and you can serve people all over the world, especially other coaches looking to duplicate your approach. Am I right? Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct. Speaker 1: Got it. Sounds good. Well, Lorene, I'd love to dig into the topic that you proposed. I know that you had discussed this playbook that you guys use, the ABC playbook for mental health, and I want to expand on that. But the first thing I also want to do, maybe before we get into that, is take one step back and talk about what trauma-informed coaching is. Now, we've discussed this here and there on the podcast before with guests like David Figueroa Martinez. This is rapidly becoming a hot topic in the Jijitsu coaching community. But I want to hear it in your words. So, Lorene, maybe can you explain what is trauma-informed coaching and why do Jijitsu coaches need to consider this when they're trying to build out and expand their gyms? Speaker 2: I think I will start with the last question, why do we need it? It is because especially in the martial arts world, when you look at marketing for martial arts schools, they naturally attract people that want to become more confident, maybe kids that got bullied, people that maybe really experienced traumatic events. For women can be sexual assault, worse. Men have also can have many mental health issues that would let them to think, I want to get stronger, I don't want to be a victim anymore, or these kind of thoughts. And they enter a school. But then, when they maybe have things like depression, PTSD, these kind of struggles, and you have a coach that doesn't understand how these things work or what to do when they get triggered, which can happen on the mats, they often don't come back, or they kind of silently quit because they feel embarrassed, because maybe they lashed out, maybe they just stormed off the mats crying, things that they feel ashamed for later. And that are just things that we can avoid, or if it happens, that we can just handle properly if we just simply know what to do. And it's not necessarily super difficult, but it's just something that you need to be aware of. And trauma-informed coaching just means that you create a space where everybody feels safe so that they can train hard. So it's not that we think that they're fragile or that if that they cannot train hard. Some people said to me like, yeah, but Lorene, that's nothing for competitive schools or people who want to have intense practice. I'm like, no, no, it's it's precisely also for those spaces. It just means that we create a space where they feel safe, because if the nervous system doesn't feel safe, we cannot learn optimally, nor can we heal optimally. So when we learn to create such a space, that's where students can thrive. And that's what trauma-informed coaching basically teaches you is to recognize it and how to create such a space. Speaker 1: I see. I see. Well said. A common challenge that I have trying to put this idea in front of people is exactly what you just said, which is people often will say, well, my gym is a competition gym. I'm not necessarily catering to this market. And I think first, as you mentioned, often some of the most traumatized people that I know are the professional competitors. And so I see this as being a very powerful tool for competition performance as well. But even if you want to put that aside, even if someone their take is, hey, I just don't care about this group of people. My argument would be just from a purely selfish standpoint, why is a business owner would you want to shut your business off to a massive swath of potential customers who could come in the door? It's not a lot of work to put out the signals that your gym is more accommodating to people of all types. And what continually comes up in my conversations with high-level competitors is they perform better when they're in a bigger, broader, more inclusive gym. When you try to create a training room that is nothing but athletes that we could consider to be in the prime demo, so you know, young athletes, probably mostly male. If you try to create that training room, you're probably actually going to underperform versus other gyms that are more inclusive because those athletes, they need a community behind them who can support them. And the more inclusive and representative and broader your community is, the more that those athletes will in turn be supported. So, I really encourage all coaches to at least think about this. Now, Lorene, something that I specifically wanted to dig into that you'd proposed, I know you have a playbook that you like to teach that I believe you call the ABC playbook. Could you explain what that is and how that benefits both the gym owners, coaches, and the people in the room doing the training? Speaker 2: Yeah, so this ABC protocol I created with Lodia Labis. She is a clinical licensed therapist who helps people with trauma specifically. So everything also in our course is peer-reviewed. It is a protocol that you can do if you have a mental first aid situation. Usually, if somebody injures themselves or get injured physically, we usually know what to do. Maybe we need a cool pack, maybe we need to bring them immediately to the hospital. We have a play, we kind of know what to do. But we don't know what to do when there is a mental first aid emergency and that's exactly what this ABC protocol is about. And do you want me to already dig into it? Speaker 1: Yes, please. Speaker 2: So, it's ABC. So A is for the preparation, what can you do before there is a class. B is what you could do if something happens during or after your class. And C are just some practical scenarios that may just happen, but that I think probably every coach already has experienced these situations. And these are just suggestions, it's not an exhaustive list, just suggestions how you could handle with them. And I think to your point what you said earlier, people that are not interested in this at all and think like, yeah, I don't want this population. I think the truth of the matter is that population is already in their school. When you look at studies, usually up to 70% of people will experience a traumatic event in their life. Doesn't mean that that will develop into PTSD or depression, but if you would say, you have a gym of 100 students, then probably at least 20 or 30 will be struggling with something. That means if you have 10 people in your in your class, probably hopefully more, but say you have 10 people in your class, probably three, if not more, are struggling already with something. So even if you're as a coach not interested in it, you will have them regardless. So that is why I think this protocol is easy to implement and it's mostly non-invasive and soon we will figure out why that is. A, the preparation part. That is really still tell students what to anticipate. And this already starts really on your website, on your social media, where you can kind of already tell them what kind of school are you. And that also helps you with attracting the type of people you hopefully want to work with. So the more precise you are in your message, the more precise the type of people that you want to work with also will come to your school. That means that telling them like, this is how a class runs, this is when you come in, there's the reception, there's somebody that will show you around, these kind of things. But also, hey, today in the class, I don't know, we're going to work on mount, mount escapes, mount attacks. So that people that if mount would be a problematic position for some, for some it is or closed guard, that they already know in advance, oh, that's what we're going to do. So that is already less of a potential trigger or activation for people. So one, anticipate. Two is, and this is actually important also for competitors is breathing, learning how to regulate, self-regulation, co-regulation, is that you just learn your people how to do that. Like in sparring, when we realize that somebody kind of a new person usually starts to really breathe heavy, they get a red face and they don't listen anymore. When I take a deep breath, funnily enough, usually they take a deep breath and you can kind of co-regulate and that's like a way how you can calm people down without that I tell them, well, Steve, I think you should really calm down now. Like there it doesn't have to be super direct and confrontational. Another thing is like, in general, whether it's striking based or grappling based, when you have new people, teach them some defense first so they can keep themselves safe. And the fourth is also as a coach, that you pair people. Like there are some people where when they come in that I have a feeling, well, maybe I should not when I have a father who says, well, I'm really out of shape, I don't know, and he's a bit shy. I'm not going to pair him up with the 18-year-old blue belt that only wants to smash. And maybe people listening think like, yeah, duh, that's logical, but often these things still happen and there's a lot that we as a coach, without just being super direct or pervasive about it, we can just tell them, hey, why don't you work with this person? Why don't you work with that person? And in that sense, they already kind of calm down, they get the right training partners and you create a safe space where then people can thrive. So that's kind of like A is everything you do before a class start or even before people enter your school. Speaker 1: Makes sense. Now, for that that first step, A, anticipate, you talked about upfront disclosure, things like what kind of information would you put on your website that would give people an idea of what to expect when they come in. Can you maybe elaborate a bit on what kind of information you like to provide there? This has always been a pain point for me personally. I've been to many gyms where I just feel like they don't do a good enough job of providing upfront information. It's one thing to tell new students, here's what Jijitsu is and if you get stuck, tap. But you can do a much better job as a coach of helping people through this very awkward experience that is trying Jijitsu for the first time. We forget way too quickly how scary and challenging and confusing it was to show up for our first Jijitsu class. And you do your students a great service by giving them more information upfront. So, I'd specifically like to know what kind of info do you provide and how do you feed that to them? So, at a trauma-informed school, for example, what would be different in their on their website or in their marketing material versus someone who just comes at it from a pure Jijitsu technical standpoint? Speaker 2: So we highlight things as choice and so we would explain what type of school we are. We say we are diverse for us, safe space is important and we also ask them always when they contact us through a form or they call us, I want to know their goals. Like, why do they want to start Jijitsu? Did I do something before? So, the first thing is really I want to build rapport. I want to create connection because the more I know about them, not in a not like things that are just not my business, but like what is on topic, the more I understand, the better I can create a learning environment for them. So if I know if and then I get somebody I had for instance a guy, a big guy, pretty fit, who was like, yeah, well, I have social anxiety. Okay. So, I would not put him on the spot for instance in class. I would not just randomly ask him for his opinion or ask him a question. These are like little things kind of during, but before, I would tell them, I say, Jijitsu in the beginning is super weird because it's quite complex and it takes a little bit before you've seen most positions and before you really understand what the game is about. So I say, emotions like frustration, normal, it's good. We all feel it, we still feel it. Emotions when you feel like, oh, I feel now a bit helpless, that's okay, but you can always step or stop and ask your partner or ask us. So we create we give a panic button. And usually when you give people a panic button, they don't have to use it because they know it's there. So for each person, and that always looks for every person a little differently, we create a panic button. Also later when they already train with us for years, they have that. Usually they never have to use it, but if they do, they know they're safe, they can either talk to me, they know they can always go out, nobody cares or thinks like, oh, why did this person leave? So for us it's important to tell them also what winning and losing is like, that a tap is is learning, if something doesn't work, that doesn't mean that you suck, it just means that you that you learned something that does not work, so that you won't be doing that again. So we frame it right from the beginning, we really explain like training, you can't win training, and that already keeps the stakes low. And when the stakes are low, we can keep the nervous system of people, especially new people that are already kind of overwhelmed and excited and shy and scared, that they remain calm, so they can enjoy the class a lot more, they learn also a lot more and they maintain in their heads a lot more. So we reframe right from the beginning, we try to kind of spell out what they most likely are going to experience and feel and that it's totally normal. Speaker 1: So when you say a panic button, one of the unique characteristics of Jijitsu is we kind of have that built in, right? We have the notion of the tap. Are you talking specifically about educating people on tapping or do you mean something beyond that? Speaker 2: Also beyond that. So tapping is always available, but we also have words or things like a panic button can be say time for sparring. And I'll just give myself as an experience as an example, if I am for instance on my period as a woman, I don't have it's not for everybody the same, but I don't have so much power. I cannot handle so much. So I say, I won't have competitive roles today. So if you want to have a competitive role with me, then or like don't seek me out today, go to somebody else. I'm happy with flow and playful types of sparring rounds. So we teach people also immediately to practice their self-autonomy and to also set these things to say, what do I expect in the role right now? What do I need? So that the others also know what to expect and like this, you build in already this preemptive kind of panic button that it doesn't escalate. Because sometimes people say, yeah, I want to flow roll. The other say, yeah, sure. And then it still escalates, right? Um, with this, you can kind of already because both really know better what they want. So if you don't want a flow roll, then you have to search for another person. So we kind of build these panic buttons in here. And particularly in trauma-informed coaching, it's important because if you have somebody who really gets a traumatic trigger or a traumatic memory, their their rational brain goes offline, so to speak. We can dive into that also later. And then they can't really tap anymore because they're somewhere else. So then you need actually somebody else to tap for them. And that is why for us it's important coach understand it, that students up to a point understand it, but also that we can see the signs before and that's kind of like the scenarios we dig into with C, how you kind of can recognize this, but we give people that they can maybe if they feel it themselves already, but if not, that we basically also can hit the panic button and stop it. Speaker 1: Okay. I'd love to explore that notion of having someone else tap for you in a bit because I can think of some specific examples. But before we do that, I just want to expand on a few things that you said there. The first thing is the importance of establishing a compatible intent with your partner. I've started advocating for this a lot on the podcast. It's one of maybe the most underutilized core skills in Jijitsu. Before anything related to how the roll goes, getting on the same page with your training partner about the objectives of the roll is absolutely key. I mean, I I think you know, I was injured last year. I had my shoulder torn and I've been off the mats for a long time. I had surgery, so I'm in rehab now. And part of the reason why was just because I was rolling with someone and I was doing like a slow flow roll and they basically slammed their whole body onto my arm and I didn't expect it. And so it just, you know, before I could even tense or brace, it tore my shoulder. And so this is the interesting thing, right? It's not always about like who's more skilled or who's more experienced. It's about expectations. If someone comes in thinking, hey, we're just doing a Sunday roll and we're just going to take it easy, and the other person throws on like a UFC grade finishing submission, it actually doesn't matter how much better or experienced one person is versus the other if you simply don't expect it. And I mean, that's a big part of Jijitsu's strategy as well, right? When we're trying to win, we're always trying to get our opponent to be unprepared. We're always trying to create a situation where our opponents doesn't know what we're going to do. Because it's harder to defend something when you don't see it coming. And as an experienced person, this is one of my biggest concerns rolling with junior people is I often want to do a gentle flow roll, but if out of nowhere they do something really unpredictable, even before I can respond, someone can get hurt. So having that clarity of goals upfront is really key. And this is not just a beginner thing. It is useful for people of all levels. I especially say if you are more experienced, it becomes more important to have this conversation because the challenge with being a black belt is a lot of people just they want to kill you, right? They expect that like the goal is I'm going to go 100% because this black belt can handle it. And I mean, from a technical standpoint, yeah, the black belt can, but look, if you're a white belt or a blue belt and you go nuts and you knee them in the face, you know, it doesn't matter what the skill difference is. So I really like that bit about getting on the same page there. Speaker 2: Yeah, and especially for a person with trauma, like the problem is that often choice was taken away from them. So, if they come in a school where they are taught what to do, how to do, when to do it, and also they have to kind of grow with everyone and there's no communication, then often they can feel still very helpless and can actually aggravate their trauma because again, choice is kind of taken away. So for them, it's important that they practice that. But actually, in this day and age, I think everybody needs it. I mean, not just because you experience trauma, but I think with the kids also, we do this. For me, it's very important that they every class practice self-autonomy. And by saying what kind of expectation you have, you set you set this boundary and others also need to accept that. That even whether that means that they roll with you or not, but they have to accept, okay, cool, today you don't want this type of roll. I do really want it because I don't know, I have a competition coming up next week. Fine, I'll go with this person instead. And like this, you have this you build a good communication among people, among members, without that it's that anyone takes it personally. And I think that's very important. I know that many coaches, but also also students, they tend to take things or no very personally, even though I think, yeah, but it has nothing to do with you. And in our school at this point, like that is super easy. So people also are quicker that they like, well, actually, I would like to, you know, roll with you, see how it goes, because they also know that if it is too much during the roll and they say, oh, this is a bit too much for me, the other can also scale up and down. That's something that we really we work on this from day one. So when we have a new person, doesn't matter what size, if they come roundabout twice a week, within the month, they can train with everyone. Because for me, I really find it important to invest a lot of time that they learn to scale up and down and that they understand that you can't win training, so then they will they're not going to go super crazy. Also, not that I want to dive into that per se today, but we also use ecological dynamics because it goes in my view hand in hand with trauma-informed coaching. So, they pretty quickly we focus on problems. And then it's not then the tap is not so important. So that's kind of like how we step by step build up our trauma-informed community where indeed building resilience and self-autonomy is really much emphasized. Speaker 1: That's a great point. I am increasingly thinking that gamified training has benefits beyond just skill acquisition. It has the massive benefit of reframing the roll away from being a fight and towards being a game. And that allows people to come into this with a playful mindset and understanding that the stakes are really not that high, right? The goal is to have fun and to learn. Once you get people into that mindset, it's much easier to get them training safely. Now, we talked here about step A, right? Anticipation, which it sounds like if I'm correct, we're talking about kind of the upfront disclosures before people even really begin training. So this would be the stuff that you put on the website, the stuff that maybe you tell them before the roll. Step B then is to bring them back. That means tactics to bring people out of their stressed response state and back into the present moment. Is that correct? Speaker 2: Yes, step B is really like what you as a coach or any person that is trauma-informed will do if a student has a traumatic trigger or a traumatic memory. So that's really when shit goes wrong. Speaker 1: I see. I see. Okay. Well, on that first part then, step A, I want to talk a little bit about the culture of the tap. So, the beautiful thing about Jijitsu is we do have this panic button built in, the tap. The downside though is that the culture around tapping sometimes makes it hard for people to feel comfortable tapping when they should. Specifically, there are still many coaches, some of whom I very much respect, who will straight up say, you know, don't tap to pressure, don't tap to position, only tap when there's a legitimate submission. I would say first of all, this is not great instruction because many modern submissions are very position-based, right? I mean, you can be outside of a defined submission and still be in grave danger. There's a lot of things that can happen to you where you should tap, even if you are not technically in a submission. Beyond that, this does not even get into issues like panic attacks or even just general safety. I mean, every once in a while, you hear these stories of someone who died on the mats of a heart attack and they're not necessarily old or out of shape. There's a lot of genetic factors that can lead to people having these problems. And if you create this culture that you can only tap when there is a a valid locked-in threatening submission, then you're taking away that panic button from your students. I'd love to hear you maybe expand on that and the implications to having like a poor tapping culture in the gym. Speaker 2: Well, I think that apart from injuries that you can get, I also think you put them very much in a fixed mindset because you want growth, right? If you put them in a fixed mindset, they're not going to grow a lot because then they I see often when I when I went to some gyms where tapping is really like a bad thing, people just in your roll, they just only do defensive stuff, so you don't get to go anywhere. Oh, yeah, but I didn't get tapped. I'm like, yeah, you got dominated for five minutes, but okay, you didn't get tapped. But beyond that, I think the deeper thing with this tapping issue in my opinion is that coaches themselves are afraid of tapping. And my husband and I, Alex and I, we tap all the time. Like the games we we we play is that when well constrained, a white belt will tap me. So, since in our school everybody taps everybody all the time anyways, there tapping is a good thing. I we also say, if you don't get tapped in in class, then something went wrong. Like if we do a submission-based type of class, I mean, sometimes more positional. But so for us, I think really by example, because if I say, no, no, tapping is totally fine, but nobody ever taps me, then I am kind of like my words and my actions don't match. Because my actions say that actually tapping is not a good thing. Or say, I get tapped and then I go super aggressive back and tap them back, then I'm also telling them that tapping is actually not a good thing. So, we celebrate the tap. I had a few weeks ago, a white belt uh teammate of mine, she did a beautiful, you know, she got my back and I entertained her way too much. So she fair and square, she bet she beat that version of me. And I also put it online. I'm like, this was so awesome. And what you get is that they don't need they don't feel the need to tap the coach because they know we see them and respect them anyways. But on the other side, the other hand of this, is that they also understand what it means when they do tap you. Because good training for me is that somebody who is less skilled, I get I let them get further because then I have to see, can I still get out of this? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but it's good training for both. So I think that some coaches, in my humble opinion, just need to get over themselves a little bit and see that it's just training. Speaker 1: Something I once saw a guy do that I really appreciated, and I might even start thinking that this is something we need to advocate for. He would tap to basically any situation where the roll needed to stop or pause. We're often so conditioned to think that tapping has to do with submissions or the end of the fight. But there's a lot of times when you're training where you have to pause or you have to stop. The most notable being, we're about to go off the mats, you know, we're running out of space or maybe our training buddies who are rolling next to us are getting a little bit more close. This guy would tap to stuff like that. So if, you know, we were doing guard work and we started inching off the mats, he would tap. And that was a cue to me to stop so we could reset. He wasn't giving up the fight or anything. It was just like, hey, let's pause and move. Now, most people would just say that, right? Most people would just say, hey, let's stop and reset. But I really like that this guy would actually tap in that situation because it normalizes the tap. And this is something that once I'm back on the mats after injury, I think I'm going to start applying. Whenever the roll needs to pause, whether it be due to resetting or telling the guys next to us that we need a bit more space so we can roll more, or maybe even just because I want to chat with my training partner, maybe I've got some tips for them or I need some tips from them. I think what I'll do is I'll just start using the tap to pause the conversation because that sends this strong signal that the tap is okay. And it's about more than just you're about to die. Right? There's a lot of valid reasons to use this from a training standpoint. Speaker 2: Absolutely. You know, I like that as well. Like for us, we usually have afterwards, we always give them time to talk to each other. So I we also teach them like, how do you give feedback, right? And um that is really how you make each other better or when they when they realize, hey, I get to this point, but here somehow I all the time lose it, then they get feedback from their partners. I get feedback from also from beginners and they are it's very valuable. Like sometimes I also see that people feel very upset when a lower less skilled person gives them feedback, but I'm like, also, so what? That just means that they don't train as long as you. So I think normalizing giving and taking feedback, normalizing as you say, tapping not only for submissions, but also if there is something happening, doesn't matter what it is. Um I think it's a good thing because indeed, as you say, tapping is one of the most brilliant panic buttons that we can have, that we already have essentially. Speaker 1: I actually prefer to get feedback from lower belts than from equal or higher belts. And the reason why is because much of the time when you're talking to black belts, they're kind of set in their ways and when they give you feedback, they're giving you feedback basically from the perspective of, this is what I as a black belt do and you should do it too. And it's often not taking into account the differences between who we are or why we do things. I once had a black belt come over and, you know, kind of lecture me on the finer points of a triangle. And I was trying to explain to him, buddy, I know how to do a triangle. It's just I've got short thick legs. It's just not a move I enjoy. There's other stuff I can do. And this guy just didn't seem to get it that my body was different from his. He like wouldn't accept that as an answer. Whereas with beginners or even less experienced people like purple or brown belts, they're much more, at least from my perspective, they seem to be more inquisitive and curious and willing to accept the limitations of their knowledge. So sometimes when they ask you questions or tell you what they're doing, it can prove to be very insightful. And if nothing else, it can hold up a mirror to you as a black belt to make you consider, okay, well, why am I actually doing what I'm doing? You know, sometimes like a white belt will say, why are you putting your hand here? And you have to stop and think about it and then you realize, I don't actually know. I've just always done that. And now you've got me thinking about it and I need to start figuring out why am I doing this? Is this just an ingrained habit that actually doesn't serve me? So, I think that beginners or less experienced people often provide the best feedback because they tend to come in from this perspective of more of a beginner's mind and also sometimes their lack of experience can be a mirror that you can use to gauge yourself. Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, at least I can only speak for my school, they are the feedback it's about one identifies a problem, they together try to solve it. And that is a very constructive thing. It's not a this was good, this was bad kind of thing. It's more like, oh, I noticed this, how can we make this better? Or let's test this. So it's it's really a lab kind of and I like that so much because again, as you say, also with kids training, they do things sometimes where I'm like, or we constrain in game and they solve it in a way where I'm like, hold on. That's brilliant. I never thought of that. And I think that in general, coaches tend to overcorrect way too much. I find that coaches often just need to shut up and just give people space to actually figure these things out. The next thing also for trauma-informed coaching is that when I say that making mistakes is totally is good. That's like how you learn. But if I see them make a mistake, if it even is, I mean, this can be also debatable. But if I immediately correct them, then my actions again don't mirror my words because my actions tell them, it is not okay to make mistakes because I'm immediately correcting you. So I think that for a trauma-informed space or any person-centered space, I think you really want to give them the opportunity and the time to make to figure out what works for them because as you say, I am short. Um also triangles on bigger people are also not my favorite thing. So I need I will do things differently than somebody with long legs, but you have to give them also the opportunity to figure that out. Speaker 1: Anything else we want to add on step A here, anticipate, or did we cover all of the main talking points? Speaker 2: I think we did cover the main talking points. Speaker 1: Got it. Got it. Well, if we move on to step B, bring them back. This is what to do if a problem happens while a roll is going on, or I guess it could even technically be before a roll is going on, right? People might have a panic attack as they step onto the mats. Maybe explain to me the context of when step B comes into play. Speaker 2: So, step B comes into play when it's clear that somebody is mentally unwell. I will say that a traumatic trigger and a panic attack is slightly different and for both step B is is a little bit different, but I'll I'll dive into that next. It's a moment where you realize that either somebody gets hypervigilant, so overly aggressive, or numb, like that they don't move, that they freeze, or maybe when people just get up and just they move out or they or they run out of class in tears or suddenly they are not really responsive responding anymore. When you just realize that they're not present, is how I call it, that they're somehow not present. It can be in a in a very passionate, more like like in you have hyper and hypo, in the aggressive type or also in a very numbing kind of cold freezing type. And so when you realize that all of a sudden the presence of your student or of your partner changes, that's where you have to pause and check in on them. Now, when you want to check in on them, there are just a few do's and don'ts. And the biggest don't is do not touch them. Because if somebody really has a traumatic trigger or a traumatic memory, we don't know where they are. And we also don't know whether touch helps it or makes it worse. So we first really we do not touch ever. Even though it's a very natural thing for us to do like, oh, are you okay and touching them. So that's really one until you don't know, you don't bring them back, please do not touch them. That's really the big number one I really want to emphasize. After that, we call this reorientation activities. It's like we have to get them back to the present. There are I have like 10 ways of doing that. You don't have to do all of them. It's always with the trial and error and for one one works better than the other. But these are orientation activities that work. So the second one would be grounding, so make sure that their eyes are open, that they look at you, that they can kind of see you, that they don't just stare. You can ask them to move their body, walk around, squeeze, these kind of things. You want to see whether they can actually respond to what you ask them to do. That's like a one way to that they start to get back into their bodies, grounding. The third would then be, you can ask them questions, where they are, what their name is, how old they are. And depending on how severe the traumatic memory can be, some may be really be back there when it happened. Because usually with a with a trigger, we go back to the time where it happened. So if say abuse happened when you were five years old, some would say I'm five. And then you know, okay, we need to get them back. So these are things that could happen if it's really severe. Usually it's not, but I just also just want to say it can happen. One that is often said and that's really good is like the five senses. It's like notice what's around you, know like name five things you can see, some you can hear, smell, touch and taste. That's always like a good way to see where they can connect again with the environment, that they start to be like, okay, I feel the mats, maybe I smell the sweat, I see my favorite training buddy, something like that. And that's how you can step by step get them back. A few other options are hold on to an object. You can have a pebble or a glove, something, something that they can describe to you how it feels like, to so that they have to focus, like it's an external focus. So basically what you want to avoid is internal focus, so please also do not ask them what happened. You don't want to send them back, you want to get them out. So external questions. If you don't have an object, you can ask them to squeeze them as tightly as possible because when you tension everything and you let go, that starts for them that they start to reconnect body and mind, because usually with trauma, people they don't feel their bodies as well. Like an example is people trauma often don't know when they're hungry. That's why they can still do amazing things on an empty stomach, whereas other people they like, but I need to eat every three or four hours, otherwise I'd faint. That are like effects of trauma is that you don't really feel also when your body is tired, when your body needs rest or needs nutrition. Seven, you can do positive affirmations and have them repeat them, like, you know, you're safe right now, you're here, I will take care of you, and or the things that they can repeat. This is also like, like I said, these are all things that you have to figure out what works for you for and also for the people you're you're dealing with. Eight is like you can have your student eat something, especially something sour. So if you have like these sour candies, sometimes that also brings them back because it's so sour, they're like, oh my god, this is this tastes horrible. It's also a nice way to get them back. And nine, and that's actually nine and 10, that's really that that maybe is surprising. Breathing, deep breathing comes with when you get people back from trauma very late. Why? Is because if somebody is somewhere else, it's very hard to have them do a a soothing activity as breathing because they're not there yet. It's like, if you want to create a good mindfulness practice, you're not going to start doing that when you're stressed out. You need to do that when you're feeling pretty okay. So, we cannot ask somebody who is then super stressed to start doing all of some mindfulness stuff because that's that's too far apart. But as you go through a part a few of these reorientation activities, if it's helpful for them, you can start with breathing. Now, people with a panic attack, I would apart from at first not touching them, for them would be great to actually start with breathing exercises because their activation is slightly different because they can still be in the present, but they just find what is happening in the present very stressful or what's what's about to happen. So there breathing can be a great great way to kind of calm their nervous system down a bit so that they are like, okay, I can do this, I'm fine. So that's a little bit the difference between when somebody really has a traumatic activation versus somebody who has a panic attack because these are two different things. So, that are more or less like the 10 things that we would advise you to play with if if this happens on your mats. Speaker 1: Interestingly, the common theme behind a lot of those is and you used this word yourself, it sounds almost like a mindfulness practice where you're giving someone an an anchor into the physical world, an external stimulus that they can use to kind of focus in the present moment. Am I understanding properly? Speaker 2: Yeah, because we want them back. That's indeed usually the problem. And there's a really a traumatic trigger, they are somewhere else and we need to get them back. Speaker 1: That's a good point. Now, let me ask, when someone is having a trauma response like this, do you want to extract them from the environment, like get them off the mats and out of there, or do you want to deal with this right there on the spot? Speaker 2: Depends. So if it is somebody who's more like activated, super angry, about to go full berserk mode, that's easier to get them to a quieter space. If it's somebody who freezes, you cannot because you cannot touch them. Like I can give an example that my my brother experienced, like he had a they had a a guy for a trial class, big guy, did I think rugby or something, fit. And um as they were rolling, my brother was mount on him and he couldn't move my brother and he froze. And normally, also my brother, yeah, normally I'd be like, hey, come, you know, move, but he realized that this is not all right. So he went off and he asked them, hey, are you okay? And start start with the reorientation kind of questions. And then what turned out was that this guy, and he himself said, I didn't have this memory for years, he kind of had forgotten about it. But when he was about seven or eight, his brother, older brother and and his friends, they rolled him up into a carpet and sat on him. And that suffocating kind of feeling that you couldn't move, this claustrophobic feeling, he felt with mount. So mount triggered that memory. So he froze for a moment because, yeah, that was horrible. So he was not there. And that is like an a situation where you cannot just ask them to get up and you know, that you do on the spot if it's usually freezing, numbing. And like I said, when they're more active anyways, yeah, then you can just take sideline them or go somewhere else depending what kind of space you have, of course, and what's possible in your school. Speaker 1: Now, you said something really insightful there. You discussed how trauma responses aren't always about panic attacks or freezing up. Sometimes they can be other emotional responses like anger. And I think that's a really important thing for people to understand because that is a very common response that people see in Jijitsu. Often people will get furious because something happened on the mats that didn't go the way they want. And you wisely explain here that that is actually a trauma response in itself. It's not always about freezing up or or panicking in the moment. Sometimes it's about getting enraged. Talk a little bit about that and how anger can play into this as a trauma response and how we can handle that. Speaker 2: So, I guess most people are known that we have in our brain, we have the amygdala, that's like our stress response center, if you will. And what is interesting is that memories and sensory input comes in the amygdala and based on that, there will be either a stress response, that can be fight, flight, freeze or fawn, or a very rewarding, a positive outcome. And based on situation, if our amygdala is like, oh, I perceive a threat, that's usually what it is, I perceive a threat, then it will choose one. Now, typically based on kind of also our characters, we usually have a default one. Mine is definitely more fight. A friend of mine is more flight, that really depends. However, it's important to say all four of those responses are just there to keep you safe. So all four are valid. However, based on the situation, one is more appropriate than the other. And the more aware we are over ourselves, and the more in control we are over ourselves, the better we can make an informed decision which of the four is the most appropriate. Now, if you have trauma, I think I would have to explain this as well, is that for somebody with experience in a traumatic event, their nervous system thinks it's still ongoing. So, it's not even though it maybe has been years since it happened, for the nervous system, it is still ongoing. So, somebody who is in that situation doesn't have the opportunity yet to make an informed decision, oh, like, oh, I perceive a threat, what would be the best response? So, some, and indeed, indeed, in Jijitsu, I've seen this also relatively often, often it's a fight and anger. But it's a response to a perceived threat. Doesn't have to be a real threat, but they feel like that and they act on it. And that's also what we will discuss with C, is indeed instead of fighting fire with fire, that's where regulation comes in. To recognize that usually when people get annoyed or angry, typically it has nothing to do with you. So I advocate also to my students or teammates, how I prefer to call them, and other coaches, like, please do not take anything really personally. Until it is and then there need to be a conversation, but mostly, if something really triggers somebody, it has nothing to do with you. It may have happened with you, but it's not about you. So instead of then getting angry and having your response and then it all gets worse, calm them down. Now, maybe I think for this it's already useful to kind of go into C because that's exactly why I go into that. When you as a coach see that, of course, you can talk to a person, but you can also reset as in drinking break, change partners, let's go on with the next technique or the next game. And that are just ways how you can manage your class and can help people with calming down and that they basically come online because when we have when we go into fight, flight, freeze or fawn, usually our rational brain goes offline, so we cannot we have no access to our rational brain, so we cannot really think clearly. When that comes back again, we can. And to avoid that they feel like they lost face or that they completely lashed out, you can break these things up when you sense when you see it's happening, change partner, time for a drinking break. Oh, I saw something. Oh, I don't know. Ashley did something very awesome. I really would like to highlight that right now. Basically, what you want to do when you notice that something something is going to escalate, you want to interrupt it. You just want to interrupt it and it doesn't have to be like, hey, Colin, stop doing this or calm down. No, you can say, oh, wow, let's go on to the next thing. And that's where coaches really can manage their classes really well without anyone really noticing it and without anyone feeling addressed. Speaker 1: Got it. Got it. So just to kind of tie this back to the beginning then for the ABCs, I guess it sounds like step A is anticipate, kind of what we do before the incident. Step B, bring them back, what we do during the incident. And step C, this is kind of like how we change or pivot afterwards. Is that a fair way to understand these three pieces? Speaker 2: Yeah, you could see C is kind of like also kind of before it happens and after it happens kind of. Speaker 1: I see. So it's kind of like how you pivot course. I mean, we might it's funny in Jijitsu, we might sometimes call that like a pattern interrupt, you know, how you and it's actually a very valid strategy that you can use while training. If you want to throw your opponent off their game, if you can do something that kind of gets them out of their own head, it's a really great way to disrupt their rhythm during the match. But it's also a great way to de-escalate a situation, to take someone out of that context. And so you brought up, I think some interesting examples there about how it doesn't need to be a direct specific targeted intervention where you say like, hey, I need you to stop this because you're having a panic attack. But rather you can do it more gently or more subtly. So maybe share some examples of that because the one that comes to mind here that you discussed, which I think will be very relevant and illuminating to coaches is anger responses. And I bring this up because again, Jijitsu is a sport that carries a lot of stereotypes. And I think many of the people who hear this might think like, well, I'm an alpha male. I'm not going to freeze up in a fight. But what I think you're drawing attention to is an anger response is a trauma response just as much as freezing or having a panic attack. And of course, it can be hard to reach someone when they're having an anger response. So how do you de-escalate and gently pivot in a situation like that without making people feel like they're being, you know, they have a spotlight on them. And how do you make them how do you help them kind of feel like they can save face in a situation like that without drawing too much extra attention to what they're going through? Speaker 2: So, a lot is timing and sometimes you have the timing, you know, spot on, sometimes not. But let's say timing is off and something kind of escalated, especially when it's more like, as you said, like when it looks more like the alpha, you know, aggressive, all that. I'm not going to tell them necessarily to calm down because that's usually how you instant rage. I try to validate their feelings first, just today I try to connect with them. So, if you have more coach on the mats, that's great because then coach another coach can take over or a student, whoever you trust, but just people just keep on going. Like you don't want this to be a drama, everybody wants to look at. So, usually I'm like, hey, I'm noticing and I describe what I'm noticing. So I'm like, hey, I'm noticing that today you seem upset or today you seem a bit more agitated than usual. And usually I ask them like, hey, how was your day today? Because sometimes, and that's one also one other thing, trauma-informed coaching also works well for people who just anyone who has just a stressful day, which, you know, most people have anyways. But just to say, hey, how was your day? And open questions. And from that, I kind of steer them away from what may have triggered them on the mats because nine times out of 10, it has nothing to do with that. Usually that's just the, you know, the last drop, so to speak. And they may tell you something or they don't, but usually they already calm down a bit because you ask them a question, they need to think about. And they feel cared for. And I'm not immediately telling them like, yeah, that behavior is really not okay. Sometimes their behavior is totally not okay, but it's not going to help them or me when I immediately start telling them that when their rational brain is still offline. So, I validate them because of course, we can feel our emotions like rage. Anger is not bad, but it's of course what how we how we handle it, right? So, that we do and usually the step by step they calm down, they tell you something, maybe we have this with kids sometimes. We had one time a kid, he came in and usually he's one of the best kids ever. He starts smashing every kid. And I was like, hold on. So I said to him, hey, I noticed that you smash kids that you normally don't do. How was your day? And then he said, yeah, I got a bad grade in math and then I had a fight with my parents and all that. Okay. So I ask him like, okay, is this the only grade you will ever have for math? He's like, no, no, it's one of many. I'm like, okay, I said, does this hurt you overall grade? And he's like, not really. I said, can you go to a teacher and talk about it, see where it went wrong? He's like, yeah, I will do that like tomorrow. Okay. So then I just said like, well, I'm very happy that despite everything, you're still here. So, let's train. And he's like, yeah, still in a very angry voice, like, yeah, okay, let's train. But he already smiled a bit more, he at least stopped, you know, throwing other kids into the next orbit. So, that's like how you how you can regulate them and get them back where they feel seen and heard, but where they also realize that that behavior, of course, is not okay. Speaker 1: Another thing that you can do is, I mean, you know how Jijitsu people are. They love walking you through techniques and stuff. So if you ever want to kind of silently diffuse a roll, you can always just say something like, hey, that arm bar variation you do, can you just stop and show me how you do it? I'm really curious about learning it. And people will immediately go into YouTube explainer mode and Yeah. Speaker 2: It's great. You interrupt. It's whatever works. Speaker 1: Um something that you mentioned earlier, which I think this is a good time to discuss, is the art of tapping on behalf of someone else. This is a a really important skill set for coaches when you see two people who are clearly beyond the realm of what is safe or acceptable in class, but they're so in the thick of it, probably in the midst of some sort of trauma response that they're not in a state where they are cognizant enough to stop the problem themselves. How do you as a coach do that? How do you kind of abort a roll or a round that is going in the wrong direction when you observe a problem and the two people rolling are clearly not able to stop it on their own? How do you as the coach kind of step in without making it embarrassing or awkward for people? And how do you make them how do you help them kind of feel like they can save face in a situation like that without drawing too much extra attention to what they're going through? Speaker 2: First of all, make sure you have enough coaches watching. So if you are the only coach, then please don't roll with them. Even if it means that there's maybe one out, because otherwise you can't even see it to begin with. So that's one thing coaches can think about how you would do that. And when I notice that it's like a feel that you just if you start watching, you will notice that when people start with a specific energy and when you suddenly just sense that the energy, the vibe changes, that's what pricks my attention, my and then I will look closer. And when I just sense that one is withdrawing a lot more than they usually would do, or when they start to actually get more aggressive than they usually would do. Sometimes I just indeed what you also said, I I go there and I'm like, oh, that was really cool what you did. Did you see it somewhere or because we didn't teach you or something that conversation. And then you then I can give the other also a break and kind of see and maybe I'm like, oh, sometimes I'm like, now it's very hot in Germany for instance. I'm like, oh, it's very hot. I mean, you you seem a bit, you know, dehydrated, maybe you want to zip. So it's just something like that is like how you kind of can diffuse that. And when I sense that somebody, if it's more towards numbing and all that, then I usually try to get them really out of the situation. And then I'm like, oh, yeah, I would like to show you something or and like, yeah, I'm sorry. I just apologize with the other person and usually, you know, there's somebody else or another coach that then maybe just can go with that person. Like you just it's management. It really is that you just can get them out. And for me, it's like, I mean, after a while, you have you have a baseline for your student. It's like, after a while, you kind of know what kind of vibe they have. And anything that for me is odd or is like kind of out of character, if you will, that then I pick that up and I watch closer. Sometimes you already pick that up when they come in, that you're like, okay, that person has a very good day or a very bad day or something is just a little bit off and then I just look closer. I mean, for most people, when they come in with and they had a bad day, training is the best thing ever, you know, they actually see how they start blooming and be happy. But that's not for everyone always the same. And yeah, that's what I tend to look for is that when some somehow when you have this flow between two people that there suddenly something changes. Speaker 1: Got it. I guess one thing to clarify though is if you want to stop a roll by asking someone to explain like a technical thing, you just need to make sure that you're not doing it in a way that reinforces whatever kind of behavior you're trying to stop. So for example, you wouldn't want to jump in and be like, hey, buddy, I see you're dumping that white belt upside down on his neck. That's really cool. Can you stop and explain that to me? I I would not suggest that. You know, you want to find something a bit more neutral that will get their head out of the moment without making them think that they were doing the right thing by doing the wrong thing. Speaker 2: But that's anticipation for me again. So slamming and that kind of stuff, we discussed that always. That is just big no-go. So I think these type of things would be then already in the A in the anticipation part where you very much like, especially in the beginning, like I said, the first month we are very close to the newbies anyways, to just, you know, guide them through it to make sure it goes as smoothly as possible. But if indeed somebody starts to really try to rip somebody, you know, it is uh that's I mean, if need be, I will also stop and I say, hey, I just think this is a bit too rough today. Um why don't you just sit with me and then I just ask him again. I ask him, hey, how was your day first? So, it's like connect before you correct is for me very important because yeah, sometimes people do things that are really not okay because like you're you're you know, don't break your toys, you know, like your training partners are not your dummies. But if I want them to listen to it and be able to open to it, especially when they're in a heightened state, I need to connect first before I correct or discuss with them that behavior. If it's really bad, you can just say stop. Just I mean, sometimes you have to, like it's not it cannot always be super gentle. When you can do it super gently, perfect, great. But if it's really dangerous, stop it. Stop it and you can say one to give them, you know, to drink something and the other like, hey, let's have have a walk or have a talk because safety comes first. If you can do it gently, great. But if not, then also don't hesitate to stop it. Speaker 1: Now, we talk a lot about all of the benefits of training Jijitsu. But something that I'm very concerned about is the situations where Jijitsu can be the source of trauma for people. It wasn't exactly the context of what he was talking about, but Craig Jones once said that, you know, Jijitsu has ruined a lot more lives than it's saved. And again, I I know he was probably being a bit pithy there, but I take his point that we sell Jijitsu as being this healing, transformative, powerful thing. It's a great tool for people to learn to defend themselves and to overcome trauma. And that all sounds all great in the marketing. But there are people who have gotten into Jijitsu and because their coaches didn't properly handle these issues that we've talked about here, they had a terrible experience training and maybe they suffered a, you know, a grievous injury or maybe they suffered some sort of mental trauma because of the nature, the intimate nature of what we do in this sport. What are your thoughts on how to deal with those situations where Jijitsu is actually the source of trauma? How do we prevent that from happening and how do we deal with it when it does? Speaker 2: Well, there I can actually give a very personal example because it happened precisely to me. So, as a minor, I um had unfortunately had to face sexual abuse and assault. And people were like, yeah, well, Lorene, you have to learn how to defend yourself. That's a whole other thing about kind of victim blaming, that's another thing, but I took it to heart and I started training Jijitsu. And I explained this to the first Jijitsu coach and I don't want to know like, you know, be negative about this coach, but there you can see that a well-willing coach can still do a lot of harm. So, I explained about the PTSD and all that, but he still he just he just didn't get it. So what would happen was, I mean, it was in Netherlands, I was weighing 48 kilos, so tiny. Dutch people are big and they also weren't used necessarily to women because it was still in the time where you were usually the only woman and they didn't want to lose from her. So, then you roll and each time I did in in those odd moments where I did something right, they would just go harder. So that would trigger something in me. So I would be somewhere else. So I was fighting the trauma from back then and I was trying to defend myself because in the present, there was this big guy trying to submit me. So I couldn't stop because I couldn't say stop anything anymore. It was too much. So, for the first six months, I would go back home crying every time because it was retraumatizing me during that roll and if I or the rolls at class. So, when I tried to talk with that coach about it, he was like, yeah, but then you should say stop. But he would he failed to understand that that's the point. I can't. And that's something why I think trauma-informed coaching is so important, I could not tap. I could not say stop. I could not stop it. Then, I um wanted to pause the contract because I would I was going to Oxford to study there. And I then just walked past him and I overheard him saying, yeah, well, the passing is just a way for her to quit because Jijitsu is not for her. And I cannot tell you, Steve, how much that pissed me the fuck off. Because I was coming there twice a week. It is so hard for me going there. I also had to like 30 minutes by train. I had to go there. In the evening, trains went only once per hour. So I usually had to wait for another 40 minutes to go home. Like I really put effort in this because I'm like, I wanted to get stronger. I wanted to get more confident, right? But instead, I was basically he stopped coaching me because he thought I wouldn't get it anyways. He found me troublesome and then he's like, yeah, Jijitsu is not for you. And I was like, maybe you were just not for me. And I did as I said, in Oxford, I trained Jijitsu. The people there were not necessarily trauma-informed, but they understood smaller bodies and they also just understood that, yeah, when you're a beginner, maybe start at the beginning-ish kind of. So I just realized there like, wow, Jijitsu can also be fun. And at the same time, I then met my first yoga teacher and she happened to be trauma-informed. That's kind of like how seeds were planted for later that now, you know, we have our own school. But had I believed what that first coach said, I would have quit Jijitsu. I would now not have my trauma-informed school. You and I would not be talking right now. So yes, I think that many coaches, even if they mean well and are not bad people, they can definitely do harm. Speaker 1: Yeah, extremely well said, Lorene. Well, as we get to the end of this here, is there anything that you wanted to add here on the ABC front? Anything that we missed or any closing thoughts that we want to talk about? Speaker 2: No, I think we really went over most things. And the only thing I want to say is that this is this ABC protocol is something that go through it. I know you will also make it available. I send it to you. Print it out, hang it in your gym, but make it your own. Like, there are other ways still to do it. These are just suggestions and like what is very important, do's and don'ts. And with in that frame, find your own style. Speaker 1: Well said. Well, if people want to learn more about this, where can they go to do that? Speaker 2: So, we have on Instagram, we have our page called Off the Zone. That there we also offer programs. It's like a one-time investment for entire life. And twice a year, we have all kinds of expert people coming on. So we have other psychologists talking about specific things. We had psychologists talking about neurodivergent students. We had people talking about my first transgender student comes in. How can I create a safe space for them? So we have all kinds of coaching calls on topics that are related to this, all related to safeguarding, creating safe space, maintaining a safe space while still having a very cool, awesome and tough learning environment if that's what you want. And um that's what you can find there. And of course, we have also a free mini-course where you can have a look at what it is about. So, yeah, we like to connect. So if you have questions, do connect. We always try to help the best we can. Speaker 1: Amazing, Lorene. Well, thank you so much. I will put links to all of those resources in the show notes, as well as to how people can contact you. I think for many coaches out there, going down this road and starting to think about how to make their gym trauma-informed is a a huge win, not just in terms of making it a better training environment, but also as an excellent competitive advantage versus the other gyms in your area who might not be thinking about this. So again, I will link to your resources as well as to how people can contact you in the show notes for this episode. So just pop open your podcast player and hit it up there. I'll also put a link to everything we make, which is all at BJJ Mental Models.com. I always tell people, the podcast is free, the mini episodes are free, the newsletter is free. So get those if nothing else. And if you want to level up with us, BJJ Mental Models Premium is how we do that. The main reason why you might want to do that is because of the massive audio course library that we've got. There's also an increasingly growing video library there as well for people who prefer that vehicle. And the community is a big part of the reason why people join and and support us. We're about 600 strong now. Love to get to 700. So if you haven't already done so, please consider BJJ Mental Models Premium. All of the details for that and the free stuff I talked about earlier, it's all at BJJ Mental Models.com. Link in the show notes. But Lorene, thank you so much for coming by. This one, I thought was a special episode. So thank you so much for for investing here with us and doing this with us. Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me and I enjoyed it very much. Thank you. Speaker 1: Amazing. And thank you to the listeners too. Hope you enjoyed this as much as I did and we will talk to you next time. See you then.