Steroids Are Too Normalized In BJJ (And No One Wants To Talk About It)

Speaker 1: Let's talk about steroid use in BJJ. Oh, red hot topic. And let's talk about uh, let's talk about the culture of PED use and let uh, I mean, this is obviously a thing, right? And I don't think there's any grappler out there that doesn't sort of get that it's there's pretty widespread usage of performance enhancing drugs amongst the elite in our sport. Um, I think in every every sport. Speaker 2: I think it's coming in more and more into everyday grapplers. Jiu-jitsu dads are on TRT. And look, I think we got to talk more because tell us, Joe, the tide is coming. Speaker 1: Yeah, well, this is this is where I wanted to start with this was, um, we're not seeing it in we haven't seen it in Jiu-jitsu, but we're seeing it in the strength world that there are a lot of untimely deaths. There are they're mostly mostly men, but also a lot of women in bodybuilding. Um, people dying in their late 30s, early 40s. We recently had is it Pa O'Dwyer? Speaker 2: Pa O'Dwyer. Yeah. Which is R.I.P. tragic. Speaker 1: Yeah, which is really really sad. He for I most people probably don't know him by name, but you'd know him on on Instagram. He's a bald head. Irishman. And he's often commenting on he's often like doing his take on on other over the top of another video. He's always wearing his he's usually wearing his little stringy singlet and he's calling out other people for being a fucking cunt. Don't be a fucking cunt. And he's and he and he highlights the nice guys and he tries to show the good stuff and then he he tries to shine a light on people who are being assholes. Really, really fun, enjoyable content. Guy obviously had a very good um like a moral compass. Speaker 2: Bald head. Yeah. Which is R.I.P. tragic. Island's strongest, Britain's strongest, world's strongest man competitor, rated in the top 10 in the world, widely acknowledged as being an absolute beast in the strength realm. Speaker 1: Which is why I like him so much. Yeah, like and up like Eddie Hall fucking had a tribute to him, right? Carried the coffin. Speaker 2: Yeah, the Stoltman brothers also carried the coffin like also just renowned as being a good guy. Like a good, genuinely good family man, good funny guy, brought the energy and he's 40 years old and he's gone. Speaker 1: And so here's the thing, right? Like he's got and you could see it in some of his uh more recent videos. He's got young kids. He's got two or three kids. Yeah. And you're like and you could see through his content that he really enjoyed his kids. You know, he enjoyed being a dad and and all of that. And it's like and we look at people like that who perish and we, you know, you can only assume it's related to one, the stress that he's put his body under and PED use is part of that. It's not the whole thing, right? Like chasing elitism in any sport takes its toll for other reasons as well. Um, but you're like you you see that, right? You're like fucking elite athlete died and you're like, yeah, kind of happens. That's the that's the that's the gamble they take. But then you're like, the cunt obviously loved being a dad. And you're like, no fucking dad who loves being with his kid wants to die. Like it is a horribly tragic thing to happen. And I would really it would be really fascinating if you could this is going to sound so weird, but if you could speak with that person, like if you could talk to them retroactively, like if if do you know what I mean? Like if they were faced with the death and then didn't die, how that would change them and how that would change their their reflection on prior choices. Speaker 2: Yeah. No. I think we've already seen it dramatically with a lot of a lot of folks. Like you know, if you think about the amount of guys who were really big at one stage who are other than Mike O'Hearn. Mike O'Hearn is on for life. But everyone else, you you can see bodybuilders go to a certain level and then invariably, even the the true greats, they come down because they cannot sustain it. It is not healthy for the liver, for the heart. You know, when something is negatively affecting your organs, which are hard to replace, you know, that's that's that's game over. And so the challenge here is we have not had the waves of steroid related deaths in Jiu-jitsu, but I I feel it's going to come. Like, you know, if we think about, we know who they are and those folks who have just been on steroids for the last 20 years and if they were to just drop dead of a heart attack, I would not be surprised. I would not want it. So don't don't think I'm I'm being a hater here, but you know, I would not be surprised if certain members of the Jiu-jitsu community just dropped dead of a heart attack because of steroid abuse. Speaker 1: No, and I mean, this is like, yeah, so this is so if we're talking about this untimely thing, we see it in the strength realm because the strength realm really does abuse gear to the nth degree because the nature of Yeah, the nature of the sport, it's so driven by these like high intensity efforts, right? Like lifting the heaviest fucking thing, doing the event, being as big as you can. In Jiu-jitsu, those things don't count for as much. However, performance enhancing drugs, of which there's a whole bunch of substances, do other amazing things that allow you to train at a really high intensity, right? And so, yes, when we look at I I I'm, you know, typically like on the show, JT casts everyone with the PED brush. I'm usually a bit more conservative. I'm like, I don't think everyone, but I'm prepared to say as the guy with the more conservative take that the majority of the athletes you see in ADCC and CJI are on the gear. Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Speaker 1: The majority. I'm talking 75% or more. Speaker 2: Yeah, and and look, I I think that what what I where I want to kind of completely non-scientific opinion. No, put in no, no, no. I've hung out with a bunch of elite guys and it's very clear that those who suffer random tendon ruptures, bicep, pec, whatever it might be. Shout out my man indoor, quick recovery. Are fucking on the fucking juice. And they look it. You know, it's not out of place to see these people. If you took them from a Jiu-jitsu podium and put them on stage at a bodybuilding comp, they would fit in. Speaker 1: Yeah. And that would Speaker 2: Except their obliques are too big. Speaker 1: They don't have that little waist taper there like refrigerators. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just too too girthy. But I I think here's the thing. My my I wouldn't even say my beef, but my my concern for the Jiu-jitsu community is it is now very accept very much accepted in the culture. It's like, oh, you're a guy, you're over 30, you should get on TRT. Why? Because I'm getting paid money to promote this service for you. Marek Health, am I right? Like Speaker 1: Yeah, let's be explicit about that. Like at CJI, Marek Health had a booth. Speaker 2: Had a booth. Speaker 1: And it's like, come to the booth and talk to us about getting prescribed gear. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's testosterone. Speaker 1: And wasn't Gordon's wasn't Gordon, wasn't Natalie? Was she in that booth? No, she wouldn't have been at CJI. Speaker 2: No, no, no. Speaker 1: But there was some there was I was like, oh, that cunt's there. Like it was like that's that's a pretty like Craig was dropping Marek Health in all of his content. Right? Liam was saying like, if you want to get on my fucking the same stack that I'm using. Um, Craig looks looks great, right? He's he's the grappler that we all want to be because he's funny and charismatic and he's got the big father. Speaker 2: Sure. I'm the grappler you want to be. If I grappled. But no, but I understand. That's the aspiration. Speaker 1: But right and so and so this is what I wanted to get into sort of as a second piece here is like the amount of grapplers that have been busted for PED use is pretty fucking high. Speaker 2: And they don't some of them might not even be the ones that you imagine. Speaker 1: Well, yeah, so and here's the thing, there's no testing in like ADCC, there's no testing in CJI. So where you get the testing is in the IBJJF events. Speaker 2: And they only test randomly because they don't want to spend the money. Speaker 1: That's right. And they also don't want to fucking destroy the sport. It's the same as bodybuilding. They're like, we don't want to test too much because it kind of makes up. Speaker 2: Four and five of our. Speaker 1: Right? Yeah, like we're going to no one's going to come to the event if there's no one to compete. But Mica Galvao famously was the youngest grappling phenom that we ever saw get he got a one-year suspension. He was taking testosterone. He was fucking 18 years old. Speaker 2: But he's a vegan, Joe. You got to understand it's necessary. Speaker 1: Um, then we got Jonatas Gracie, Henrique Sacconi, Igor Feliz, Cyborg and Wagner Rocha. These five athletes each received three-year suspensions from USADA after testing positive for prohibited substances at the 2022 No-Gi Worlds. Speaker 2: Of course. But let's also not forget Felipe Pena. Speaker 1: Felipe Pena's next on the list. Uh, and Gabi Garcia. Speaker 2: What? No. Seriously? Speaker 1: I mean, Gabi Garcia is also a giant woman. Speaker 2: Yes, but she used to also be a lot. Speaker 1: Like, you know, if you look at her fucking she got super ripped, right? Speaker 2: Yeah, if you look at her. Speaker 1: Um, Gordon Ryan never got popped because he never competed in IBJJF, but Gordon Ryan is, you know, Speaker 2: He did compete in IBJJF, so. Speaker 1: Did he? Oh, No-Gi Worlds. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. But you know, you cycle off and away you go. But then also, um, old mate from Matos. Speaker 1: Oh, fucking Andre Galvao. Speaker 2: Well, I don't think Andre Galvao specifically got popped, but his protege. Um. Speaker 1: Oh, Kainan. Speaker 2: Kainan Duarte got popped. Speaker 1: That's right. Kainan Duarte got popped. Speaker 2: Yeah, suspension. And then also your boy Paulo Miyao. Like the skinniest, you know, hardest working dude like dudes. Speaker 1: Which that's actually very telling that that Paulo Miyao because like he doesn't look the part. But this is the thing is that the benefits go beyond just having the size and the healing. Yeah, it's the healing, it's been able to fucking push through pain. It's been able to just fucking produce energy more so than someone who's not on some shit. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: Like it it's, you know, it's great for so many reasons. We should really give it a try. Speaker 2: Joe. Joe, click Joe's link. Joe Daddy. Joe Daddy Worthington. Speaker 1: And so in conclusion, I think, yeah, we need to soften our stance on. But so but so these are just the people that we know, right? Um, who's our boy here in Josh Saunders? He's been very open about his gear use. Right? And this is the thing, if you enter the elite no-gi game, it's pretty much expected that you're going to be doing that. Speaker 2: At the high level. Speaker 1: What we see is that the people it's probably the easier way to sort of frame it is those who aren't using are the ones that tend to talk about that. You know, you got um like Mikey Musumeci, you got the Ruotolo brothers. Um, and whatever. Speaker 2: Ruotolo brothers. Natural rebel. Yeah, Roberto Jimenez. Speaker 1: Right? These are the guys that are very outspoken about it. Um, it's probably easier to go, all right, the ones that mention that they're not are not, everyone else probably. Speaker 2: Probably also the ones who look like they're on it are fucking on it. If you if you got yourself questioning like, oh, who was um old mate bull testicles, uh not grappler. Liver King. Like people like, oh, but isn't Liver King natty? No. No, he's not. He said. It's all the. He said in a post. Yeah, it's it's it's all the ancestral tenants that he follows. Yeah. Yeah. But no, but that's the thing, if you look at an athlete and they got significantly bigger, like put on a ton of muscle, like 10 pounds or more in a very short amount of time. You're like, how did they do that? It's chemical enhancement, folks. Let's not be let's not delude ourselves here. It's it's one one of the one of the big tells um is is how old, like when you see someone that's using like gear, how old they look in the face. I'll give you example of this. Look at Gordon Ryan's face. I don't know about today, but if you look at him over the last two years at like peak competition periods, he looks old. Speaker 2: In the face. Speaker 1: Like five years ago. He looks older than us. Yes. Gordon Ryan is 30. Yeah. Maybe 34 now. I I don't know. I think he might be 30 now. So he's three quarters of my age. Right? I'm 42, right? Um, if you look at Craig Jones during his peak comp, he looked fucking aged. Yeah, he's mid he's mid 30s. Speaker 2: Sure. He him at 20 at ADCC 2022 and you look at his back and his traps. Speaker 1: It's huge. And his face, so you talk about these like wrinkles in the face. He's got this fucking man head. Isaac Michelle, who's obviously in the Jiu-jitsu media for a bunch of other bad shit. Speaker 2: To the side. Speaker 1: We don't want to go into, but he's the same guy. He was he's he's 27 years old today, I checked. We ran into him a couple years ago at CJI. Yep. Um, so he would have been about 20. Speaker 2: I bumped into him in Kazakhstan last year. Speaker 1: He would have been about 25 at the time. Yes. He looked older than us. Yes. He looked like a fucking grown man. And here's the thing. If you lift weights and eat your food and grapple hard for like multiple decades, you will look like that weathered, toughened old man because that's what you are. But if you're 25, 30 years old and you look like that, it's fucking gear use because that shit speeds up your growth, right? Like you become an old cunt sooner. And you you're getting all the best bits of getting on. You're getting all the extra muscle, you're getting all that, but you're fucking aging yourself. Like there is a huge toll that you that you're placing on the body here, right? Speaker 2: That's what you are. Speaker 1: So, Speaker 2: And just think of any of your favorite I can think of a specific grappler, a baby-faced grappler who, you know, we know pretty well, who if you caught him only three years ago, looked much younger. And now, Speaker 1: Boyish. What you don't know is that your rash guard is shrinking your balls. That's right. Your T levels are declining because of the plastics in your rash guard. I have a solution. The sponsor of today's show, Alchemical. They deliver natural fibers. We're talking hemp, organic cotton, bamboo, with lightweight rashies and organic materials in your gi that do not stink and they feel amazing. You got to try it to feel the difference. Go to alchemicalfightwear.com and use the code bulletproof15 to get 15% off your next order and stay strong. See the lines and the pock marks from random bits of acne. The skin quality has gone down. The facial hair has gone up. You know, and and the bloatedness around the face, like your blood volume goes up from the increased testosterone and estrogen in the bloodstream and that puts pressure on the skin and there's all the blotchiness that comes with, you know, as much as there's performance benefits, there is a toll. And it's well known in the bodybuilding world because so many bodybuilders have died very young. But here's the thing, they get their bloods done. They do get checked. They are so efficient about their diets. So many guys out here just blast and gear doing Jiu-jitsu be like, I don't know how much to take. I just take as much as I fucking feel good. Speaker 2: My coach told me to take, yeah. Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the the problem like I got no issue with individuals that choose to go down that route, right? It's totally your choice. Speaker 2: And I love. Speaker 1: And I love I love watching these supercharged humans, the non-naturally aspirated ones throw down at CJI. That's I'm that's what I'm there for as a fan, right? Speaker 2: You're there for the freak show. Speaker 1: But the problem is is that that influences so many of us in the culture. And this is this is where we come to what is the influence of this gear use on BJJ culture, right? And so, um, we see it in the gym now. You see that and and this is backed up by the data that gear use is higher than it's ever been because it is now cheaper and more accessible. Yeah. Um, in the younger population. So you got mostly young men, but also young women. Speaker 2: But it's been popularized, right? Speaker 1: Yeah, it's cool now, right? And you can and you can look fuck Sam Sulek. You can look fucking jacked in your 20s. Yeah. Which previously it was like, nah, you can't look super jacked. You you got to train for another 10 years. Yeah, like you got to just do the time. Now it's like, no, you don't got to do the time. You could just fucking pump some of this. Speaker 2: Not quite. Speaker 1: Still got to train, right? Speaker 2: Well, look, here's the thing that people are not probably appreciating. And look, I don't you know, I'm not not starting beef here. This is this is just my my take. I think the popularization of TRT in the modern society is bullshit. I think there is better ways for you to increase your testosterone levels and not pay money to a doctor or to a fucking influencer who's getting a fucking kickback or who's invested in that fucking company, right? Oh, you know, like I'm I take it and it increases my energy and if you, you know, why would you waste time? Like it's perfectly healthy. Yeah, and that motherfucker's getting paid off you doing these drugs. Here's the thing. I'm not less muscular. I, you know, my hairline is reasonably intact. When you increase your testosterone artificially, as soon as you are kind of off, you will get a dip. Now, people are like, oh, yeah, but it's TRT and it's medically prescribed. Look, understand this about TRT. If you are low T and you bring your testosterone up to the healthy level, that is beneficial. That has been proven to help you. But actually increasing artificially increasing testosterone above what is meant to be a healthy level is actually not shown to increase uh certain health benefits. That's where you actually just it's kind of cosmetic or superficial or it's for performance relative to a sport. But that's where it starts to be deleterious towards your health. And that's what folks are not talking about. So for all those influencers out there who are like, yeah, man, just get on TRT, like improves your energy, does this, does that. Like, yeah, if you got 2 million bucks and you own an energy drink company and you do whatever the fuck you want, yeah, you can do that forever. But, you know, cost of living crisis, not everyone can afford to be on TRT for life. And so I'm going to say right now, I see a rising problem in Jiu-jitsu dads getting on testosterone and then potentially having to go off it later and having negative health consequences as a result. Speaker 1: Look, I I I mean, I I agree with the sentiment there. The I think it's the same thing though, right? Like if you got the money and you can afford to do it forever, I think you are still potentially putting yourself in a position where you might be faced with a reality that would cause you to reconsider your was it actually worth taking gear? Right? And this is the reality of it is like, it's all fucking sick when you're when you're when you're young and darting and just going hard and no no sort of like the future is just not coming. Speaker 2: You're not thinking about ramifications. Speaker 1: But when you're faced with that mortality thing of like, hey, all this shit you've created could just end, you know, because you have a heart attack in your mid 40s. Every like you would do whatever it takes to go back and change that decision. Speaker 2: Of course. Speaker 1: Like there is no grappler alive that is like, it was worth it to win those two subversion events at the roundhouse at New South Wales University in front of a crowd of 247 somewhat engaged fans. Speaker 2: 2,000 streams. Speaker 1: Right? Yeah, the free gi that I got for winning that made the four years of gear abuse worth it. Right? Or or the glory of being the toughest cunt in the gym or the glory of, hey, I managed to strip that 10% belly fat that I had and now I finally got a six-pack. And this is the kind of absurdity of it is that, you know, when we're young and we're and and I and I as a male, I know this, right? Like we make reckless decisions when we're younger because we're really fucking driven by a lot of this stupid shit. Um, and then you get a bit older and you can look back and be like, oh man, it's funny like, yeah, we're pretty fucking dumb when it comes down to it, you know? And so just the accessibility of it combined with people of influence who are saying like, hey, you can totally do this. It's not a bad thing. You're going to love it. Combined with it's really enjoyable when you're taking it. I think it's a fucking I think it's a terrible um, I think it's a terrible like influence on our culture. Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%. Speaker 1: Because I think a lot of like good well-meaning people will turn to it because it is an easy like it is an it's it's a fucking magic like it's a skeleton key in a way. And it will fuck and cause problems, man. And we haven't seen here's what we're seeing. We've seen um, Craig Jones is off it now. Of course. Because you can tell because he's gone his his body is turning back to the boyish look and you're like, oh, wait, he actually looks like a mid 30-year-old now. Well, which is fascinating, right? Maybe. But you're like, I mean, Wagner's not getting off. Cyborg's not getting off. You're like, we are we haven't yet seen the negative consequences of it. Unfortunately though, in a pretty small scale sport like Jiu-jitsu, we probably won't. You'll have grapplers that abuse that end up dying young and whatever. You're not going to be reported about in the media because the world doesn't give a fuck about that. Speaker 2: But we'll be aware of it. Speaker 1: I mean, it's our culture. Potentially, right? If it's the elites, but there's probably a bunch of like, you know, um hyper competitive like mid-level grapplers that we just don't know their names, who are abusing, going hard and then we'll fucking pay a price in 15, 20 years. No one will ever know. Speaker 2: But the downside isn't just the physical aspect, it's the mental aspect, right? It is very well documented that people who've been on PEDs and come off get depression. Because you get a certain amount of hormone suppression, you're not as good at regulating your dopamine, your energy's not as high, your general performance isn't as good. Like there's a lot of reasons why there's a lot of mental health issues in uh, you know, people who take drugs and sport. Like and and really steroids is the credit card debt of your health. You are borrowing from a future that you have to pay back at some point. You feel great right now, but those interest payments are going to fucking hit you in the nuts. And not only in the nuts, but in the liver and the spleen and everywhere else, right? So I think this is the thing, as somebody who has fucked around and found out about credit card debt. And and I was like, what what could be the harm? What could be the harm with having, you know, a $10,000 credit card? And then having to pay that back. Speaker 1: Free money. I'm going to be rich in a couple of years time. Speaker 2: So it'll it'll sort itself out. And you know, I never realized how long that compounding of me paying minimum payments just wasn't getting it done, right? And so I think even though our society has been built on debt and and and all kinds of reckless behavior, that's not how you should live your life as a BJJ person. You should seek more ways to recover. You should eat better. You should get a bit more sleep because that will keep you in the game and you're not going to suffer really bad consequences. And we've seen economic collapse after economic collapse from reckless behavior of people in the stock market and politics and everything else, right? And I'm not saying this to be political. I'm saying, you can bankrupt your health. And when you're injured, you they say a sick person only wants one thing, a healthy person wants thousands, right? When you're sick, all you want to do is be healthy. When you're injured, all you want to do is just not be injured, so you can just live your life, right? You're not thinking about, oh, I want to be the champ. So I think this is the thing that with the popularization of steroids and the accessibility, the downside has been like glossed over. Social media is like not talking about that. Speaker 1: No, that's right. I mean, I I I shudder to think about what I would be like now as a 20-year-old. Speaker 2: If if you're pumping gear in your 20s. Speaker 1: Well, just because like it's a different world, right? Yeah. Social media and, you know, accessibility and all those things we've mentioned, like I would probably fall prey to the same forces. You know, like because, you know, I I asked those questions, like, why aren't I getting bigger? Like, you know, you go to the big guys at the gym, what do I need to do? And they're like, just keep lifting, man. Like, just keep going, bro. I'm 40, 45 or whatever. You just got to keep lifting, young fella. And you're like, you're like, fuck, okay, because that's the only thing you can do. Like gear just wasn't around. Yeah. You know, like Speaker 2: Harder to champion, bro. Speaker 1: I mean, it was, but you had to get it from Biker Mike. Yeah, like you had to be you had to know someone who who was in that world, right? Whereas these days, like that whole shit's changed and so I'm like, it's it's almost a bit of a curse for for young folks. But I do I really do hope like I I I don't begrudge anyone's individual choice, right? But um, I hope that people can fucking someone can hear this and be like, you know what, man, maybe maybe I don't need to lean on that shit so much and I can just fucking dial up some other parts of my health and recovery and and behavior and uh not have to use fucking performance enhancing drugs. And I also hope that all those people that we've mentioned, I hope there's no negative health outcomes for any of them. Speaker 2: No, no, no. Speaker 1: You know, like we said, like it's not throwing shade. Speaker 2: I don't wish bad on on anybody. I just think that our the playing with fire. You're playing with fire. You are playing with fire. And and that's it's been demonstrated over and over again. So really at the at the end of the day, everybody's going to make their choices and and good luck to you. But definitely, I can say as a person who's 42 years old, fit and strong and stronger than 99% of most of everybody, hanging out with the strongest people, some enhanced, some not. I'm still able to get stronger and I'm still able to get fitter and I'm not I'm not taking any PEDs, you know, and and so I wish to continue my life in that way. But I do make sure I eat right, sleep right and everything else. So maybe if you haven't looked more closely at your lifestyle, that could be something you do before you try to take that step. There it is, y'all. Speaker 1: Boss, boss. Speaker 2: Stay natty.