Hero Worship vs. Admiration In BJJ (Episode 402)

Speaker 1: What up, guys? Welcome to this episode of the Jujitsu podcast. Uh on today's podcast, we're going to get into some of the um different stuff going on in Jujitsu right now with like the allegations of, you know, sexual misconduct and bad behavior, um and, you know, a lot of that stuff that's going on right now at the time of recording this. It's like February of 2026. Um as we'll talk about in the podcast, I kind of waited a little bit to kind of think about it and see what was going on and kind of gather up some of my thoughts. I didn't want to make some sort of post about it or some sort of podcast about it where uh I feel like people are it's kind of like the news. It's like, you know, like when the news comes out really quickly and they get the story really wrong because they didn't think it through. They're just trying to be first. You know, I I don't really care about being first and I'm not I think especially with something like this where I feel like a lot of people are just making memes and profiting off of people who are experience have experienced something like really bad, traumatic, gross in some cases, like, you know, different different variations, different intensities as far as emotions go, but just not good, right? I don't want to profit off that. You know, I wanted to like sort of talk about it, but and I I but the thing is I didn't want to talk about it from a standpoint of like what I what I see it as and also too just sort of calling it out and also talking about that some of this behavior is not just affecting women. There's also a male side to it, although the the way that it's the way that it manifests is a little different, right? And this but this breaking down of boundaries of trust. And so we'll talk about that. We'll talk about some different ideas around it. We'll also talk about the idea of how hero worship in a certain way, I think is almost necessary. Um or is very valuable to us. Um but when it goes too far and how to uh sort of kind of think about that. Uh but anyway, thank you guys for being here on the podcast today. I appreciate you guys for listening and watching. Uh if you guys want to check out our sponsors to support the podcast, you can do so by going to uh athletic.com. They are a company that makes uh essentially microdosed THC mints with other cannabinoids along with it to produce a an effect or a sort of state of, you know, state of being that could be supportive to things like exercise, training, recovery, the whole deal. They have three different mints right now. They have one called Rebound, which obviously you can associate with sort of recovery and rest and that kind of thing. 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But if you do want to check out their products, use their website, charlotteweb.com and use the promo code Jujitsu 30 for 30% off the order. C H E W J I T S U 3 0. Also, guys, you can check out our Patreon at patreon.com/thejujitsupodcast. And with that, you get a bunch of other perks and things like that. You guys know how Patreon works, right? Like you you support us for a very nominal fee and then in turn, we give you a bunch of extras. With that, one of the things that uh we just we just posted um or we'll be posting up in the next little bit, um it kind of goes to this idea of hero worship. And we sort of get into the topic of Helio Gracie and, you know, there's this mythological idea of who he is and there's kind of what I think is probably a more accurate version, which is a flawed human being. And I talk about it in that Patreon with Eugene, kind of why it's a better thing. I think it's it's a better thing for Jujitsu. I think it's a better thing for for for mentors, right? Um that that he's a human, right? Like opposed to being this mythical like figure that's never done anything wrong and um just invented leverage. But uh we'll talk about that. And again, it's definitely not a diss to Helio, as I talk about in that Patreon extra. I actually feel more admiration about for him after knowing more about him and what he did to help create the environment that we are in right now. It's like, I mean, again, without that guy doing what he did, we don't have what we have now. We're not training Jujitsu. That's just what it comes down to. So I have all the respect in the world, but after getting to know more about him through different readings, both Robert Drysdale's book, Hickson's book and everything else, I have a lot more respect for him. Flawed human being, but more admirable, more relatable. You can check out our Patreon at patreon.com/thejujitsupodcast to get more information on the Patreon and to join up. Also, thanks to you guys for joining up who joined my regular um daily email that I send out. If you aren't one of the thousands that read it every day and you want to become one, go to the website at jujitsu.net/join. J O I N. And when you join up, you'll get access to a ebook that I give away and a video that go into being more focused with your Jujitsu. The whole idea of the guide is to help you have more focused training, goal-oriented training, so this way you can get better at Jujitsu faster. That's the big goal and to get more from your open rolling instead of just going into the gym and having no ideas as to what the hell you're doing. And then along with that, you'll then get my daily email where I go through uh whatever and anything that I think might be interesting or useful to you. Um Monday, at the time of recording this, I went through a book that I just recently read and was sharing some ideas that I thought were really useful. Um timely ideas. Um and then the next day was a Q&A with one of uh with one of the members. And then, you know, I think today is going to be some just some random idea that that came about when I was training the other day in a conversation that happened and just sharing it with you guys to give you some ideas to to chew on. Um but again, people love reading the email and if you guys want to check it out and see if you like it, go to my website at jujitsu.net/join to join up. So, guys, with that said, let's get into this podcast and uh jump into it. All right, guys. So, welcome to the podcast today. We're going to get into um sort of a pretty it is a both very simple topic and a very complicated one at the same time. Um you know, right now there's at the time of recording this, there there's been all these allegations towards um Atos and Andre Galvao. And uh you know, again, they they may or may not be true. I don't know. But, you know, although I would say that it's pretty damning that like his whole team basically fell apart. Um I've seen exoduses like those in gyms before. I've actually been a part of one myself and um usually where there's some smoke, there's fire. And there was probably stuff going on and this was kind of it was like probably building up like a powder keg and boom, there you go. Again, I don't know this to be true. This is just kind of what I'm gathering from looking at it from the outside. Um where everybody just sort of falls apart and sort of leaves. But there's those things that are going on. And also, by the way, I I say this as a person who like I was a fan if you guys have listened to me long enough, I was a fan of Galvao's. Like I I really I watched him coming up in uh like 2008, 2009, 2010 when he was, you know, basically climbing up and I watched his career grow and I really liked watching his Jujitsu because I learned a lot from the guy. So I I say that with no like excitement or whatever, right? And I'm and we're doing this episode kind of a little bit later because obviously I've watched a lot of people just crank out content like the next day as soon as the allegations were thrown out, as soon as stuff was happening, they're just chiming in and and doing the whole thing. I didn't want to do that because I don't want to feel like personally, I don't want to feel like I am uh trying to bank in on someone's on an awful occurrence that I hope nobody has to go through, right? I I you know, that that that's the reality. It's like and I see people like it's this idea where the news, I mean, they'll say whatever they can to get some views and I don't want to be that guy on YouTube or on social media that like will basically just, you know, parade someone's um terrible occurrence around and be like, well, I don't care. I'm just trying to get YouTube famous kind of thing, right? Um granted, I don't have to do that anyway. Like it's the channel's already built. I don't have to do any of that stuff. But I don't want to do it anyway. And I'm not trying to exploit anybody. Like you're just trying to That's But but it is a it is a subject that's worth talking about and there's a lot of angles to talk about it, which we're going to get into today. Um, you know, and I'm not and also let you guys know like I'm not going to sit here and virtue signal and be like, oh, this is so wrong. Of course, it's wrong. We know it's wrong. Like again, you know, like sexual misconduct is wrong. It's very clear cut, objectively wrong. Although I would say, I was talking to my wife about this. Like people sometimes don't think about this. Sometimes like the Western idea of what we think is wrong is not universal across the world. You know, like because because, you know, I I I think it's objectively wrong to hurt children. Of course, yeah. You know, I I I think that, right? But again, there's other cultures that exist right now that have no so no such qualms um with doing bad things to children, right? No problem at all, right? It's part of their culture. It's normal. Um but again, I think for me, growing up in the culture that I did and looking at things the way that I do, and you know, when you see what those sorts of things do to children's brain structure and everything else, I think it's just objectively wrong. Um, but at the same time, it's very it's a very complicated and tricky tricky subject because you think about how close we are in Jujitsu, right? We're so close and we grab each other and we're wrestling around and um we touch each other constantly in in ways that, you know, very subtly changed would be inappropriate, right? And I think that sometimes some of the issues, right, where like, okay, this person says, oh, this this guy, he touched my neck in an inappropriate way. Well, we're touching each other's necks every day, right? Like it it's kind of it it there's this thin line that we that we play. We know when it's wrong. We know when it when it when it crosses a line. Um, but again, it can be very tough for the person to come out and speak about it if they feel like that's happened to them. Um, so, you know, so hats off to those people for doing it if that those things did in fact happen to them. Um, and they should, right? And so with that, we're going to get into the subject and talk about some different ideas that again, I'm trying to look at it a couple different ways so that it might be useful to people um for some different ways. So, first off, um, I've seen some people ask me, they've asked me this and I'm going to go through some of these questions and this is really what's been coming at me. You know, one is there just like a why are there so many bad people in Jujitsu, right? And um, the reality is is I don't think there's some abnormally amount some abnormal amount of bad people in Jujitsu because, you know, you think about it this way. It's kind of a signal versus noise issue, right? There is noise constantly happening, right? There's all kinds of Jujitsu stuff happening all the time. Most of it's positive. Most of the time when you see Jujitsu stories, they're positive. It's people competing. It's Jujitsu saved my life, so forth and so on. That is the most common stuff you get all the time, right? And so that becomes noise. It just blends in. You know, just like none of us um talk about the millions of flights that are happening happening safely and routinely every single day. But then there's a plane crash. All of a sudden, everybody's freaked out to fly. They're scared to fly. They're, oh, I can't fly anymore, whatever. Or, you know, they're freaked out about it. That becomes a signal. And, you know, again, for us as humans, we're trying to avoid certain um, you know, our bodies are wired for survival. And so it becomes a a signal. Ah, these these extreme signals basically then help us to avoid potential um harm. Also, you got to think about it this, there's there's always this negativity bias that exists in us, right? Um, bad events typically weigh out or are weighted in our our thinking more than the good ones. This is why again, everybody ignores all the good stuff that's going on around them constantly, but somehow they'll fixate on this one bad story. It's why you can see puppy dogs looking at children's face and having this beautiful moment, but you can't stop staring at a car wreck. Um, you everybody has this negativity bias. And so, you know, you get those things together and all of a sudden, it's like, you see, you know, a handful of stories that have come out. Also, too, think about it this way. It started off with one story and now you're getting a lot of women, too, who are coming forward saying, hey, this happened to me. This happened to me. This happened to me. So now you're having like probably a decade's worth of stories that could have been spaced apart and they're all happening at once, right? Because everybody feels like they can come come forward with it, right? And all this is coming forward. And so it gives you this this sort of thought, oh, man, this is we've got this terrible this terrible culture. And everybody's terrible and all the coaches are awful and so many bad coaches. And I I heard some guy say like Jujitsu culture's trash. There's so much bad stuff. I'm like, yeah, I don't think so. And again, this is because are there bad things that happen? Of course, there are. But like think about it this way. This is not unique to Jujitsu. Think about how many every year there's a a number of teachers that we see that have inappropriate relationships with, you know, their young students. Most of them are female female teachers, right? Some male some male teachers, right? So it's not a guy or a woman problem. It's just a you get put into this position of power and influence and all of a sudden, some people are messed up. Now, are most teachers bad? Of course not. Most teachers are good people. They're doing a good job. They're they've got a noble profession. Um that they're that they're I mean that they that I I I don't envy sometimes is with the way that society sort of just here basically people want to like, here, raise my kid. Um kind of thing. You know, and then they're supposed to make do with with limited resources and everything else, right? So, you have this, but most teachers are good people. You have like doctors, lawyers, and judges. I've seen all these stories where someone in this position of power, men and women alike, will use it to force and coerce people into doing things they don't want to do. Sometimes it's, you know, sexual misconduct, sexual behavior, sometimes it's other stuff. And so you see it everywhere. But again, it goes back to this idea that I think most people are decent people. It just goes it's even like a political thing, right? Like you can you get into that idea where like right-wing and left-wing and all these stupid labels. And, you know, there are extremes to different groups. But you get to you actually talk to people in person, get to know them. Most people are decent people. They're just they're all trying to get by doing it doing the thing that they can do, right? Um, and so I don't think that most coaches are bad coaches. They're decent. You're usually decent people that are they doing this thing that they're passionate about and they want to share it with someone else, right? But I think again, because Jujitsu is getting bigger, it's growing, you know, you're going to have bad bad bad apples in the bunch. Um, and then also, too, you have the the this issue of closeness and contact. And so that can lead to, you know, an increase in it. But again, I don't think it's necessarily just, oh, there's so many bad people in Jujitsu. I think it's just you have you're playing a numbers game. There's always going to be bad people in any profession, in any space, in any time people get a little bit of power. The I think power has a tendency to accentuate or maybe um perpetuate whatever sort of natural inclinations you have. So if you're like a really cool person, a great person, I don't think it's going to like turn you into an awful human. But if you maybe have some issues and you're kind of a messed up human being and you get some power, well, it's probably just going to make you a like a more messed up person because now you feel empowered to do it. Speaker 2: Yeah, and some of those uh people that are in power or have a lot of power, have a lot of control. We talked about the people around them. Like you have a lot of maybe yes men or the people you bring up are people that are going to be kind of in maybe close to your line of thinking possibly. So I I think you're going to if someone's in power and they're not a great human being and they have some ill intentions, they might bring up people that are kind of like-minded. They may not want the people that will call them out on on stuff to be close to them because that, you know, that's uncomfortable and that's not they're not feeding into their I guess their line of thinking. Um, but you did say something important about like the proximity and like the we're talking about before the podcast about intent, right? Like when you touch somebody's neck in a certain way, like I'm trying to get a choke versus I'm trying to touch them in a certain way that that maybe has a different type of intent to it. Um, we're in such close proximity and we're touching and grabbing and holding on and and having, you know, our bodies like in close proximity, that can somebody has bad intentions, it's a perfect environment for someone to, you know, to do things they're not supposed to be doing or in a way they're not supposed to be doing and even play it off as something that is quote unquote appropriate, you know, it's I just think it it it blurs those lines a lot and it makes it really tricky. That's why maybe somebody that is, you know, trying to get some kind of uh sexual assault or whatever they're trying to do, they can maybe get away with more and for a longer period of time because it may not look like a whole lot. You just never know. Speaker 1: Well, and especially from what I understand and kind of like, you got to test the waters, right? So you don't know. You don't go like, let's say if you're um a person that's going to try to take advantage of this, you know, child, teenager, you know, you're not going to go up to him out of the blue and randomly just drop trou and then expect something, right? What do you do? You kind of like you you you test the boundaries. Maybe you do a little something, see how they react and then keep pushing it, pushing it, pushing it, right? Um, I remember reading a story about a female inmate who would basically she had a system for how she would lure these prison guards, these male prison guards into doing stuff with her, into doing sexual acts with her. And it basically from what I remember, and I could have this wrong, but what I remember, she would that you had to have your shirt buttoned up to a certain button. She would undo that one button. And just just one. And just see what they would do. And if they didn't check her on it, she's like, I got him. And she had this whole elaborate process of how she would slowly simply chip away at this male guard and then tell eventually, like I remember I actually went to um I actually went to this this prison um where it was happening. This was like 2010 or whatever. And they had this this this area. It was called the Wall of Shame. And it had all the prison guards' faces up on it who had done this. You know, Yeah, yeah. So like, you know, basically they're getting lured in and and roped in. So, you know, I think people that do that, it's like they they have a they have a process that they go through. I don't I don't know about it, but from what I understand, right? And so, you know, obviously, starts off very small and then slowly, you know, things lead to places that they shouldn't. Um, you know, and with this, it really comes down to to in my sort of thought is, you know, like you said, the breakdown of boundaries. And those can exist both this is like a a sexual misconduct thing, right? And this this happens especially against women, not not only against women, but primarily, you know, against women. But then there's other issues that can happen with men that are inappropriate um and and different. I'll give you some ideas. So, I had an issue where years ago, one of my first coaches, like I started training with him and great, like as far as Jujitsu Jujitsu goes, everything seemed to be good. But the guy just outside of the gym wasn't great. And again, not that I necessarily expected a person to ever be great or perfect. I don't. Never did. Um, didn't really care, you know, I didn't really hang out with him that much outside of the gym. But I remember there was a point where a lot of times with money and with certain relationships, he would use his position as the coach that people wanted to help out. And he would basically burn these people. You would see these people come in and he would use them. You know, they would come in and, you know, he would, you know, get them sucked into this this group that we had and would, you know, extract in some cases, lots of money from them and, you know, or other things and things like that. Use his power there and uh his influence with them. And then they would just get screwed over. And I saw it. And this amongst other things was like, I didn't like it. And there were other complaints that a lot of us had, so I left the gym, right? This was back in like 2007. I remember after I left, about five or six other guys left, high-ranking guys in the gym at the time. Granted, you got to keep in mind, this is 2007. This gym probably was rocking, you know, maybe on like a really, really big day was like 20 people. Um, total memberships because at the time I was one of the gym owners. Total memberships at the time was like 50. You know, maybe 50 people. You know, like not not much. So you say like, oh, it took like, you know, 10% of the gym away. It's a big number, you know? And so what had happened was is when I left, all of a sudden, you saw this, oh, we we can leave. And it's kind of like, yeah, we're kind of upset about this stuff, too. And I guess, all right, yeah, I'm going to leave, too. And I remember, um, you know, people left within about a year, a bunch of people left. And we all kind of had problems. We just didn't talk about it that much. And then eventually, we were just tired of it. And yeah, you know, and this is why I was saying that, you know, some of these allegations that are coming out for these different coaches, I don't know that they're true, obviously, because again, there's there's a whole lots of stuff that can be going on. I have no clue whatsoever. But again, the damning thing is that a lot of these high-ranking people from these gyms, they're not staying there. They're not standing with them. And and, you know, to me, if you if you truly believed in your heart of hearts that the person did nothing wrong, you you're like, I don't think they did anything wrong. I know the person. I know him well. I don't I think this is all BS. And you don't stand with them because you're scared of the mob. Well, then that that makes me kind of sad because, you know, I would rather you like stand by your guns and, you know, maybe eat some some some some, you know, nasty comments or whatever, but stand by your friend if you thought that they were true, you know, uh uh not doing those things. But to me, it's sort of telling that everybody just left and, you know, they're all doing their PR piece. So like, you know, I stand with this person and uh I am now separating myself. It's not spoken like a human. It's like they're very they're they're dotting their eyes and they're trying to keep it nice and whatever. To me, that's damning. To me, that's like, oh, you're you're not speaking like a human. It's even like like the the post to the post that were coming out to deny it. It wasn't like a guy getting on his phone and saying, no, this is this is not true. It was very like contacted a lawyer. Hey, what do I say? To me, that's damning, right? To me, that's damning. So everybody's leaving. So that, you know, and again, that's what happened at our gym. There was all these problems going on and everybody left. High-ranking people, not not like not low-ranking people. And I'll give you one more point and then I'll let you jump in. There are different boundaries that are crossed. And you really when you're talking about a coach, you simply have to ask yourself the question, would it be inappropriate for someone else to do this if they weren't my coach? And if the answer is yes, then it's probably, you know, there could be some exceptions. It's probably, you know, not appropriate. And if you have something in your gut telling you that something's wrong, you should probably trust your gut because there's probably something going on, right? Um, I can tell you that I had a message from a student. And this is crazy because I remember when I started doing the YouTube videos about 10 years ago, I started getting all these messages about these crazy ass Jujitsu coaches that would just flip out on their students, right? And don't get me wrong, Eugene's been around the gym long enough like, you know, sometimes some of us, we've gotten scraps. You get in those hard scraps, you know, you're both kind of getting a little hot with each other, but then afterwards, you bro hug it out and it's all fine, right? Those those are very normal instances and I think honestly, those are healthy to learn how to regulate and deal with those emotions, right? Like a lot of people in society don't know how to deal with it when they when they get kind of hot and uh frustrated or whatever. Um, and so, you know, you um, you know, that's normal. That's happened plenty of times in the gym. You know, I I I can I can definitely tell you I've I've gotten rough before with people and then afterwards, like we kind of bro hug it out and it's fine. But like there was this video that I was watching. And this it's like an older blue belt. He's probably like 50-ish, right? And he sent me this video in confidence, by the way, which I'm not going to post it because if you guys actually know what confidence means, it means, you know, between you and me. And he was looking for some for perspective on it. And I watched this video because everybody, you know, has their video they have their cam their cameras on tripods now where they can record their rolling so they can watch themselves roll, which I think is a good idea. Um, so they can see kind of what they look like. And he has the coach in the case Katami. The coach gets out of case Katami and starts cussing at him. And then proceeds to yank and again, this is an older guy, yank him around, throwing him down, put knee on belly, just I mean, like the whole team stops rolling and just watches. And again, if that was just a really rough roll, they wouldn't have thought anything about it, right? But a boundary had been crossed where his intentions were no longer about training. It was just to be mean because he was frustrated. And again, the guy wasn't doing anything wrong. He had a case Katami, a traditional case Katami pin, probably was sitting putting some pressure on the neck. But again, you just tap tap the F out. No big deal. Hell, I was rolling with one of my blue belt or purple belts the other day. He tapped me out. No big deal. You just move on. And so he gets up and he's cussing at him. He's yelling at him, getting frustrated. And, you know, this blue belt like he's kind of like, oh, shit, what just happened? He sent me the message. I was like, bro, that's super inappropriate. You know, I would definitely talk to him because I think this was an assistant coach. I would talk to the head coach 100%. And if you don't get some sort of, you know, some sort of apology, something to like, you know, reconcile that, I I would leave because that's inappropriate. And that's a crossing of a boundary because, you know, it's not sexual misconduct, right? But there is a boundary that we know of with when it comes to trust and safety. And so when we roll, no matter how hard we're going, there's still that lining that like, hey, we're trying to be safe with each other so we can train tomorrow. And if all of a sudden, I start yanking you around out of anger and I'm pissed off and cussing at you, we're no longer there. And so those boundaries there, again, and again, as I said, that roll that they that when the coach turned it on like that and started being if you took out the cussing and it just turned into like grunts and like two guys getting after it, probably wouldn't have been a thing. You know, even if the if the coach's intention was just to have a hard roll, probably wouldn't have been a thing. But it because of the intention. This is like Ralph Waldo Emerson would talk about the idea that the I'm going to bring it up. It's a great quote, so I don't want to just paraphrase it here and then I'll let you jump in, Eugene, because I know you got some ideas to I have a few things, yeah. The effect of every action is measured by the depth of the sentiment from which it proceeds. So again, the the the effect of every action is measured by the depth of the sentiment from which it proceeds. So if you like you and I are going, if the the where those actions proceed from is a place of like, I'm just trying to do this technique and I'm trying to push my training partners and I'm trying to make myself better. If you're going hard, you're going to feel it, right? If I'm rolling with you and I'm like, I I just want to take this guy's face off and mess him up real bad, whatever. Even if it's the same level of like overall intensity and everything else, it's going to feel different, right? And this is why, hey, like when we were talking about like with like the inappropriate behavior, okay, maybe I I breathe in your ear a little heavy. Maybe I touch your neck in a certain way. Because I can tell you, I've I've touched plenty of men and women in places where it would be completely inappropriate if it wasn't for me trying to do a technique in Jujitsu, right? You know what I mean? It's just it's it's the intent behind it. And that is where that goes. And so we it can be it can be really tough sometimes to put your finger on it. But we know it when we see it and we know it when we feel it. And so it's a crossing of boundaries and I think that's what you have to be on guard for. And again, um, it's if it's inappropriate, like if something happens, you have to go to the coaches, the people above it. And if not, then leave. Don't let it progress. Don't let it continue. Just get the hell out of there. Um, go find a different gym and, you know, whatever else. No no amount of world championship medals are going to, you know, make you feel good and reconcile that if you if you deal with that kind of stuff. Speaker 2: So, Yeah, if if you get a a world title, but you know that like you're in this terrible environment, it's not going to be what you it's not going to be what you wanted it to be. It's going to be tainted. It's going to feel tainted. It's going to feel bad. So you have to kind of give up a almost like a false it's like a Faustian agreement. You're doing a deal with the devil. Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a Faustian agreement. You're doing a deal with the devil. Speaker 2: Yeah, you're kind of giving up like part of your soul for this like thing essentially, which is kind of Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the that's the Faustian agreement, right? In the book like Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like well and that's not that's not Speaker 1: I'll give you I'll give you everything you want if you do this, right? You give me your soul. Speaker 2: Yeah. I think you brought up a couple of good points, too. One is like the ultimate line, the ultimate boundary is safety, right? Like I've got my kids in Jujitsu. I've got um, you know, I've been doing Jujitsu for a long time. There's other people that are at the gym. Like it it's like safety is the ultimate thing because like we whether it's physical, uh like emotional, all this other stuff. I mean, literally like I mean, like you could have my arm in an arm bar and and freaking break my shit if you had to. If you wanted to. If you were mad at me. If you wanted to do that. Like so we have to have this ultimate trust in each other on safety and like if that's that if you don't feel safe in your gym and and everybody's got a different boundary or maybe different things. That's kind of the question I was going to ask you. It's like, when do you know like when is it enough? Like when have you reached your point of like, hey, this is the point of no return. I got to leave, right? Whether it's seeing your your uh training partners that you care about get, you know, taken advantage of, whether it's seeing even something or yourself dealing with something inappropriate or somebody like roughs you up, you know, like that it's just it's there's not like just one specific like, hey, everybody has this boundary at this at this level. Like it's it it varies for everyone. Um, Chewy, for you, like just in your situation, leaving your gym, what was like the breaking point for you? Because you saw certain things like, man, this shit's not right. It doesn't feel good to me. Something internally is telling me. What was like the point for you that was like, I I just can't. This is I just can't continue to be here. Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, sadly, it's like it wasn't because of like just um him, you know, screwing people over with money or whatever, right? At the time, for people to have like sort of some context, I was a purple belt. And at the time, like I was the main the best student, right? I was like the best guy uh on the mats. And I was I was holding, I wasn't like I wasn't really I wasn't making any money from it, but I was the I was the holder of the of the lease. And so the lease was in my name to the gym. And so like every month, like I was responsible for making sure that that gym payment got made. Um, you know, stupid me doing that. Shouldn't have done that. And so what happened was is when I left, that payment was still due for like like another two years. I mean, like, you know, I remember that used to sit on like a pit in my stomach every day, like every month. And there was a couple months where they were late and the landlord would message me and I'm like, I don't know how I'm going to come up with this like, I think it was like just under 2,000 bucks. I was like, I don't know how I'm going to come up with this money. Uh, whatever. Maybe in 1,500. I can't remember. Um, but it it was a it was a it was a money enough money that at the time I did not have. But for me, like it started off where like just many of us would kind of talk about stuff we didn't like that was going on. Uh, especially stuff that would revolved outside of the gym, you know, that kind of thing. Everything from the conduct of our of of the way that they would sometimes show themselves online through message forums and things. Um, you know, sometimes the way that they would not um stick with the financial agreements that they had made with people. And different stuff like that, right? And so all these things and then sometimes there was I don't want to say there was never any there was never any inappropriate behavior that I knew about within the female students in the sense of like on the mats or anything else like that. But there were times where you could see, hey, they maybe sometimes a little bit weird or inappropriate outside of the gym kind of thing, right? Never like never to the point that I know of where there was any sort of assault or anything like that. But just like, you know, just not not not ideal. Not not what you want to see from a leader, right? And so for me, eventually, there was a point where you see this stuff going on. The team's still together. So you're like, you know, when we're in the gym, everything's fine. Just outside of the gym, I'll stay out of it, right? I'll just kind of go my separate ways and I'll stay out of it and just kind of train. And then the training started to really suffer because, you know, this particular coach just sort of like, you know, just wasn't given their all. I remember coming back my my job had taken me off the mats in a in a big way for about six months because I had a really crappy schedule. And then once I got my schedule switched, I came back to training and the training was just was just you could just tell it was the coach wasn't interested. It was they were just I don't know, they were doing they just weren't interested in that stuff. So I left after that because at that point, it's like, all right, we're already unhappy about all this stuff. None of it's overtly illegal or anything else. It's just not like it's not the leader that I want personally, right? Because I I'll talk about this in a second. Hero worship versus admiration. If I'm going to have a leader, I want a leader that I can look up to. I want someone that I want to aspire to be, right? And so I was like, I don't I don't really want to be this. And they're like, you know what, the training's good, the team's together, so we're all right. Like we'll just I'll focus on that stuff. And then when like the training got really bad, it was just like, I I I there's no reason for me to be here. And that's when I left. Um, you know, amongst other things. And even sometimes the the environment inside the gym would get toxic where I remember me and uh one of the guys, Robert, we talk about this where when he and I would roll, we were both kind of like the the good students, the best students. And a lot of times it was like, we felt like we were in the Gladiator, you know, the Colosseum where the emperor's watching. You know, like telling us to beat each other. And it made it really hard to experiment and play around with different things because you felt like you were constantly being held to like, you have to win this round, which I don't think is a healthy environment for growth. You know, it can make you tough. It can make you tough and sharp, but it's not going to be a healthy environment for growth. And so, um, that was when I leave. So I didn't leave at the first sign of anything. I, you know, and again, I don't think most people do. You you left when it felt like there was just no reason to be here anymore. And uh I think probably that's for like what what's going on right now. It's probably a lot of people's situations. There was probably stuff going on in those gyms where people are leaving from and there were probably stuff going on and, you know, maybe it was different stuff. It may have been maybe it wasn't what they see going on right now, but maybe there was different stuff. And, you know, you just kind of deal with it, whatever, you know, like that's okay. And then eventually, it piles up, piles up, piles up. Like I said, like a powder keg that just needs a spark. And as soon as it gets that spark, it's like, okay, there's no reason for me to be a part of that. And that's kind of what happened. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's yeah, it makes sense. It's unavoidable. Like I think it goes to a point of no return. I think everybody reaches that point of no return where like, you know, the the bad outweighs the good. And and you know, I I think like Speaker 1: Well, have you ever been in a relationship where like a like a relationship with a woman or a man, right? And for for everybody listening, obviously Eugene has not been in a relationship with a man, but you've been in a relationship with a woman where there's warning signals, you know, and you ignore it. And you ignore it. You work around it. You see the good in them. You know, there's good times you've experienced and so you try to work around them and, you know, that whole thing. Sometimes you underplay what's going on. And then eventually, you're looking at and you're like, damn, this is what am I doing? You know, and then eventually you got to cut it loose because you're at that point, you're like, you're hanging on to a person that probably was never real anyway. It's like a this person that you've attached to, maybe in the beginning, this person was trying to show that they were or maybe they were in the beginning, but that person is gone. And you're still kind of hanging on to those memories of that person as if that's who they are versus look at you look around you and see, oh, this person is a very different person than I expected once we got past the, you know, the early early Speaker 2: The honeymoon phase, right? Yeah, it's like they're real. It's like once the facade fades away, like the realness comes through. We were talking about, you know, with leaders and people in power, like is it like does power corrupt them or are they just always had this these things that were kind of inside of them, maybe hibernating and then they get more power and so there's like the the guard rails come off and they're like, wow, I'm I'm powerful. I'm I'm a leader. People look up to me. I have all this control. Like I can kind of do what I want. So I'm going to let these these little inner things I've been hiding kind of come out and see what I can get away with essentially, which is the chicken or the egg, right? It's like, were they always like this? And now they're just coming out the the stuff's trying to starting to show because the guard rails are off or are they, you know, they weren't like this and then the power corrupted them. And, you know, we seem to think that those things were probably inside of them. It's just kind of put them put some magnifying glass onto them and it starts to really show in a more prominent way because they don't because the environment they've built, they're kind of you're you're the person. Like you're you don't have to answer to anybody. So it's like nobody can tell you what to do and you're like, you feel that you can get away with anything. That's not the case. You know, obviously, you got to you have to if you're a a teacher, an instructor, whatever, you have to, you know, your students are the ones that are going to pay your bills essentially. And you don't have students, you don't have a gym. And you don't have a livelihood. Speaker 1: Yeah. And I mean, there's there's that, obviously, the livelihood part, but even just your own soul, man. I don't know. I um, yeah. You know, this this is just me, man. You know, I I think again, going back to your idea of like what came first. It's like, you know, the the artist's idea, did the drugs come first or did the artist's creativity? Which which one was there? Did they need the drugs for the creativity or was the creativity there and the drugs came next? Who knows? Um, I tend to think that all those compounds and things like that simply bring out more of you. It's like steroids as an example. You know, back in the day, they would always say, oh, steroids are going to give you a roid rage. You're going to turn into some raging butthole, right? They even have that made for TV movie. I think I think it was with Ben Affleck where he like, they South Park did a great episode on it with uh Jimmy where he just beats beats everybody up. Um, when he's getting ready for the special Olympics, he's just like juicing up and then, you know, like his girlfriend's like, what are you doing, Jimmy? He just like beats her up, beats her his mother up, the whole deal. And, you know, everybody that I've ever known to use them and I've known plenty because I've hung around, you know, weight meat head circles and, you know, I used I'm on TRT now, but like back in the day, like when I was in my early or younger days, I would actually use heavier doses when I was lifting weights and stuff like that. And I remember like you you saw guys and like if they were cool people, they were just cool people. Like that's just what happened. Um, but then you would sometimes see where a guy was kind of a jerk already. And as soon as he started to kind of get a little bit bigger and felt kind of better about himself, he would get become a bigger jerk. You know, it wasn't like you it wasn't like you took the coolest dude you've ever met and then all of a sudden, you give him a little like testosterone and he just flips out and starts beating people up, right? That that was never the case. And I think sometimes that's what happens, right? Like these these experiences or these these places of status that people hold, I don't think they create something that wasn't there. I think they simply just give it an outlet. They give it they give them the opportunity, really, is what it is. You know what I mean? Like when you think of money, they people talk about money corrupts. To me, money's just opportunities. Really, that's what money gives you. Gives you opportunities to do what you want to do. And so when you get a when you get a lot of money, that just gives you opportunities to do things that maybe you wanted to do already and you're like, okay. I don't like you see all these, you know, the Epstein stuff going on right now. Like I don't think you take a reasonable human being and give them money and all of a sudden, they want to go like, you know, um, molest young girls, right? And and assault young girls. I don't think that's what happens. I think you're just a you're a effed up human being and that simply gave you a means to do it. Uh, personally, that's my my thought, right? Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Um, but there is an idea that I wanted to touch on that I think is important because, you know, I've seen this idea of we need to, you know, end hero worship in Jujitsu and that kind of thing, right? And um, we'll make a distinction between them, right? Between hero worship and sort of an admiration. So, hero worship where you worship someone like they're some infallible God and you don't see wrong in them and you just turn a blind eye to that stuff. Yeah, that's that's probably a bad idea, okay? Um, but finding someone that you can project onto some of the things that you want to see in yourself can be a beautiful thing. It's something that we do all the time, right? Like my son, just as an example, he watches everything that I do and mimics everything that I do. Like we'll literally be sitting down and if he sees my leg crossed, he'll cross his legs like me. You know, and like we read a he'll see me reading a book, he'll go grab a book and sit on the couch with me and he'll look through the pictures and we're reading books together because he's projecting onto me, right? And we do this sort of unknowingly, but then there can be you can do it intentionally, too. Um, but going back to that idea, right? Like I remember seeking out leaders at different times. Um, and looking for people that were doing things that I wanted to do. Um, I remember one of my coaches, Sean Hammonds, I went down to his gym in 2000 and 2008, 2009. And I would go down, I would like basically get up at 6:00 in the morning. I would drive from Louisville to Nashville. I gained an hour because it's on Central Time. We're on Eastern. And so we'd go down there and we'd usually get there around 10:00. Do their like early morning competition training and then would stick around for their like sort of afternoon session. And then I would take whatever I was learning, I would drive back up to my gym and that night, I would teach the same teach it to my students and would sort of show them, you know, what actually just use it on them and then kind of do that whole thing. But when I went down there to train with them the first time I did it, I did it for a week. I went down there for like a full week. And I remember just seeing just watching, seeing how he was with the students, seeing this big group he had developed. Um, saw the champions, saw the sort of atmosphere that was there. And I was like, I I want this. I want I want this kind of atmosphere. I want an atmosphere where everybody's training hard and everybody was buddy buddy with each other and there was this common push of like, we got to do it. Like we're in this together kind of thing. And you had this leader bringing people together to do something super cool. I I really enjoyed that atmosphere. And so like, I'm not trying to be Sean, but I project it using him to sort of use him as a model that I could work with to give me to give me some road map, right? Because you know, a lot of times as humans, we're trying to figure out ways of being and modes of being and how to get here, how to do this. And we all do this unknowingly or we can do it intentionally. And so I did it. Um, you know, and again, it's not that I don't admire Sean because of course, I still do. He's still a good friend and a coach and everything else. The the issue is is that when you mentor with someone like, whether you hold someone as a mentor or you are as a hero, I don't think hero is a bad term, right? Heroes can be broken, too. We can understand they're human. The difference between worship and admiration is that hero worship is admiration that basically never came home. There's a book, um, it was an idea from a guy you'll hear some of these esoteric sort of like neo-Jungians and uh and psychologists talk about this idea of gold. And again, you know, you could not like it. Again, I I think the idea is useful. There's there I read this one book and I couldn't read any of the other chapters because I thought it was pointless. But there was this really cool idea where the guy, I think his name is Robert Johnson, talked about the idea of inner gold. And he was talking about the fact that we we project on we project our gold onto other people that we want to see in ourselves, right? We we we get them to hold it. We give them to help we give them to help bring it out of us, but then we got to take it back, right? You can't be there forever. You know, just like our our sons and daughters, right? They they look up to us. They project their gold onto us and then they take it back and then they got to go look for someone else. As a kid, maybe there was a a boy or a girl that you looked up to, who was a little bit older than you, and you projected onto them because you thought they were so cool, the way they did things, the bike that they had. And then you eventually looked to someone else to help you, right? And I think that that's the difference, right? Like it's but I think it's a really important thing. Um, if you're a parent, uh, go into a gym with your kid or if you're, uh, you know, a student, brand new to Jujitsu or you've been in Jujitsu for a while, that intuition, that feeling of something's right and something's wrong. I think that that's there for a reason. It's um, we've all had our intuition kind of something, you know, spark that uh attention. We're like, this is this something feels weird. Something feels awful. Don't uh extinguish that. Go with that. Like don't don't listen to that thing. Because it it it could potentially keep you from a bad situation. But like, you know, have people at the gym you can talk to as well. Like, hey, is this something like, you know, we have training partners, we have buddies, we have battle buddies, people that we have, you know, trained with for for some time or we started Jujitsu with or whatever. And I think having those people you can confide in and just say like, hey, is this normal? Are you dealing with this? Kind of just having somebody bounce ideas off of is important, but also your intuition. Your intuition is probably so incredibly important because sometimes like, like you said, if there's like a like a say a predator or whoever at the gym, like you brought up such a great point that they have like almost like a systematic way of like, you know, breaking down the barriers a little by little and pushing a little bit and seeing what's okay and what's not. And I think that having your intuition, feeling something's not right and saying it's not right or kind of putting a stop to it, could could potentially help you out. So, yeah, intuition is a huge thing. I think it's a great point. And as coaches, right? Coaches or gym owners, um, definitely do background checks. Um, yeah, that's great. Yeah. Definitely do background checks. So there's stuff that like, you know, me and my business partner like years ago, like we had to do deal with some different stuff because of not doing a background check and having to let people go and stuff like that. Um, so it's good to do them. Good to do them if you with any of people you employ. Um, and again, you know, if you're a coach, there's a certain line you got to hold. Like obviously, like me at my gym, I'm not going to tell coaches that they can never date a student because obviously, if I met my wife there, it just happens sometimes, right? You get people around each other. But um, there are certain lines that obviously we can't cross, inappropriate behaviors, inappropriate behavior. You got to be able to hold that line and when it gets crossed, like you got to be able to, you know, take care of things. Um, and do what's right. So, um, and again, that that can be that can exist for a lot of different reasons, right? Like you said, it goes back to safety. You know, if you're the person that's that's holding the space for people that they come into, they're coming into this space, they need to have that like you said, that emotional, physical safety where, you know, they feel like they can do certain things and they don't have to worry about someone doing something that is either inappropriate or just downright illegal. So, yeah. All right, guys, thanks for listening with us here today. Um, before we wrap up the podcast, I'll get into the sponsors in a second. You guys know how it works. Um, we said we would end with a quote. And uh, I just sort of I've I've got a list of quotes. Um, like our whole folder full of quotes on my my computer. I was um looking up one. It's just kind of the one that came to me. I thought it's a good one. I think it's an interesting one. Um, because it talks about the condition that we all deal with, which is fear. Um, Presevin Pressfield always talks about start before you're ready. You know, because a lot of times people, you know, they have the great idea, this great thing they want to do, they put it off, they put it off, they put it off. Just you got to start at some point, right? So, it was from a Russian soldier's journal during the Napoleonic Wars. And he said, quote, veteran soldiers observed that fear disturbs the heart of a young soldier only before a battle begins because his thoughts still consider the deathly horrors that leave a bad impression. But once he's in the midst of battle, fear is eclipsed by rage. As he puts his life in danger, soldiers ceases to be an observer and becomes an active participant. And death ceases to frighten him. His heart feels with blood and disregards the danger. I was in such a condition. And so again, I just we're not talking about war. We're doing Jujitsu. We're doing like life stuff. But you can think about what happens, right? You ever been to a competition where the worst part, we always say it is waiting around. Once you're on the mat doing it, it's like it's over, right? It's like now you're doing it. You're an active participant. If someone is watching this or listening to it and you haven't started training, you may have all kinds of nerves about training Jujitsu for the first time. But if you once you do it, you're like, oh, this is so much fun. Um, you know, many of you guys who are afraid to start businesses or whatever, right? Like I I can I can relate with that. But like once you're in it, you're in it. And you don't get time to think anymore. You just have to do. And so, you know, the uh there's that idea that the antidote to anxiety is action. You know, you feel the anxiety before the thing. Once you're in the thing doing it, once you stand up to do the thing, you're all right. And I would tell you that this sort of comes back around to to what we've been talking about today where I imagine many of the women and people who came forward initially talking about this stuff, probably felt a shit ton of anxiety when it came to talk about the subject because they're not sure what's going to happen. What if the people are going to say? What's going to happen to me? And they did it. And I would imagine if you were to talk to them, a lot of the anxiety washed away after they did it. They posted, they said what they had to say. They let it out. People are, you know, negative about them. Some people are positive about them. But nonetheless, they took action. And I think they probably feel better because of it. And so, um, a lot of us have different things in our lives. We're all guilty of this at some point where there's something we know we need to do. And it doesn't have to be a fight. It doesn't have to be standing up to, you know, your Jujitsu coach. It doesn't have to be getting ready for competition. There's stuff that all of us put off doing because we build this thing up. You know, get into it. Just do it. The it washes away and most of us have had that experience where you say, man, I wish I would have done this sooner. And so, uh, just uh, just an idea to chew on from a uh, an 18th uh uh Russian soldier in the 1800s. Speaker 2: Very cool. Yeah, relevant and also very important. That's the hardest part is the waiting. We talked about on previous podcast, the waiting game. And that's that's it, man. Once you get in there, that's the best way to overcome your fears. Just do it. Just get in there and do it. Speaker 1: And uh, so guys, with that said, thank you all for listening. And if you want to support the podcast, you can do so by continuing to listen. That we appreciate that. And obviously, you can give us a rating on the podcast app that you have that has a rating option to it. Um, but also, if you uh, if you want to check out our sponsors, you can do so by going to their websites. Athletic, A T H L E T H C is one of our sponsors. They make microdose THC mints along with other cannabinoids. And they have several different products right now. One is called Flow, one is called Rebound, the other is called Power. They have obvious effects that they're trying to support with the names that they imply. And again, if you guys want to check them out and see what kind of effects you have and see what the products are like, um, you can check them out at their website and use the promo code Jujitsu 10 for 10% off. I'll just say this that again, you're not going to take these and sort of, you know, be off your rocker or be super high or anything like that. It's very mild, very subtle. Uh, so you don't have to worry about like it being like one of those crazy gummies that you ate from that your buddy gave you and then all of a sudden, you're like passed out on the couch 45 minutes later. Nothing like that. Very, very subtle. Um, so you can check them out at athletic.com. Also, thanks to our buddies over at Epic Roll. You can check out Epic Roll at epicrollbjj.com. The the promo code is Jujitsu 20 for 20% off the order. Gees, rash guards, shorts, t-shirts, joggers, fanny pack, anything and everything they make it. They got great designs, good quality, good customer service. And I really like the people over there. I think they're good people. And if you guys want to check them out, go to the website. And again, the promo code is Jujitsu 20 for 20% off the order. If you guys want to check out our long-time sponsor, Charlotte's Web. They have a ton of products. Everything from traditional CBN and or CBD and CBN products. CBN, by the way, can be really useful for sleep. They also have other things like functional mushroom products, Lion's Mane, Rishi, uh, using other supplements along with them to produce a synergistic effect to support different functions, whether that's cognitive or rest, relaxation, whatever it is. Um, and then along with that, they have muscle bombs and rubs. They have a whole catalog of stuff. If you want to check out any of their products and save a few bucks when you buy them, use the promo code Jujitsu 30 for 30% off the order. And again, just in case you're curious, I think these products tend to lend themselves to recovery the most. At least that's been my my my experience with them. I like their products that help with either supporting sleep or recovering, resting, that kind of thing. And so again, uh, if you guys want to check out any of their stuff, save 30% off the order with that code. Also, if you guys want to support the podcast directly, you guys know how to do that. It's the Patreon. Uh, patreon.com/thejujitsupodcast. And again, when you sign up for the Patreon, you guys know how it works. You get access to some exclusive uh uh content that we do. Um, one of the things that we do is a little podcast extra. And in the podcast extra that we that we're going to be releasing soon, it's going to be on Helio Gracie. Um, it's a short episode that just kind of goes into some ideas on personally why I admire him more after learning more about him through some of the different books I've read, like Hickson's book or Robert Drysdale's books, where you kind of dispel this mythical figure and you see them as a flawed human being. Like I talk about in the uh, you know, the the the the episode. He's he's a founding father of Jujitsu. And like our founding fathers in the United States, they have this mythical status. But when you really read about them, like when you read a biography by like a guy like Ron Chernow, if you guys have ever read Ron Chernow, the books are like, you know, like a like a half a foot thick. I mean, they're huge books that take you months to really dig through. Afterwards, you get a sense of who this person was. And to me, I have so much more admiration for those people because it's like you realize they made a hell of a lot happen with like without having a fully stacked deck. You know, so more admiration, more respect goes to them. And I think it's been my experience with Helio. You know, you see this flawed human being and he was still able to do something amazing. I mean, the guy helped change the world. I mean, you and me listening, you you and I are listening to this or you're listening to me, I'm talking to you through this thing precisely because of in part of his contribution, right? Because he wasn't the only one that led the led the charge, but he was one of the most important. And so, you know, respect goes to him. But I like hearing about who he really was or like different sides of him that sort of dispel this sort of this ailing fragile kid who somehow just beat everybody up, right? Like not true. Um, but anyway, if you guys want to check it out, uh, patreon.com/thejujitsupodcast. Also, guys, if you want to check out our uh or check out my daily email that I send out, you can do so by going to my website at jujitsu.net/join. I'll send out emails about interesting stuff that I think you might like. I also feel like the podcast, you'll like the emails. And I also give out exclusive offers and sales through that that I don't offer anywhere else. Um, we have our Jujitsu camps coming up soon and the the dates are going to be released through there first before it ever gets to anybody else. And sometimes they sell out pretty darn quick. Um, so again, if you guys want to check it out, jujitsu.net/join. And when you join up, I will give you an ebook and video that will help you uh be more focused with your training to get more uh deliberate, clear focus during your open roll. So this way, you can help it you can hopefully improve faster in your Jujitsu. And so, um, that is uh that is the idea, guys. So, thank you so much for uh for being here with us. Hopefully, you enjoyed the podcast and we'll talk to you next time.