Datsusara Founder and BJJ Blue Belt Chris Odell (Episode 410)

Speaker 1: What up, guys? Welcome to the podcast. Today we've got Chris Odell on the podcast. He is the founder of Datsusara, which is a company that makes a number of different products, famously for bags and jiu-jitsu related products. But basically, it's hemp is like the main thing they make, but using all natural fabrics, hemp and other things like cotton and everything else to make their products. We get into this a little bit and the idea of like fibers and natural fibers and how, you know, we'll go through great lengths to not get exposed to microplastics or whatever or aluminum in our deodorant or fluoride in our toothpaste, but then you drown yourself in, you know, plastic related materials in your clothing. Sometimes you don't even realize it, right? Um, so, but we get into that and we just kind of ramble all over the place because he's a business owner, so we talk about that stuff. He's a jiu-jitsu practitioner, so we talk about that stuff. He's like probably one of the world's longest running blue belts out there. Who's still training. Um, but again, it's a fun fun podcast and uh, you know, some cool information there and then obviously we get into some rants because he is a tangential ranter, like myself. And so, uh, hopefully you guys enjoy the conversation, get some ideas from it and uh, that's that. So, big thanks to our sponsors for helping make the podcast happen. Charles Web CBD. They're one of the OGs in the CBD space. They've been around for a long time. They were the first CBD company I ever heard of. Randomly used it because I was given some stuff from a friend. I didn't even think about it until afterwards and I said, oh, that stuff's actually working. I wasn't even expecting it to do anything. Um, and so I've been a, you know, fan of it since. And again, I use it, I like it. I think it's useful for me. CBD sort of inhabits a recovery element space, if you want to think of it that, you know, as as I get older, like I was talking to a young guy, this young guy was at the gym last night because I had to get my lift in late because Luka was he was in rare form when he got home yesterday and Jess was exhausted. And so I was like, why don't you go take a nap? I'm going to take him outside and then, you know, whatever. We'll get to keep the house quiet. We'll let you get a nap in. And so I took him outside to play while she was napping. And so I didn't get my lifting time in. So I got my lifting time after class last night. Um, because I was just teaching, I wasn't training. And uh, when I was lifting, this young guy was still there hanging out and he said, man, he's like, dude, you're big. He's like, are you all natural? I was like, no, sir. I was like, I'm on the TRT, man. I was like, I'm an old man. So I was like, I'm using a little TRT. But again, you know, as you get older, as we all know, even with TRT, your recovery just goes down. You know, it just that's the whole thing. And so for me, I use it for recovery aspects, you know, both for the idea of being able to help with stress management, help deal with stress, and also help deal with sports induced inflammation. That's like the biggies, right? So you can manage those two, you can get a little bit more out of your body, recover a little bit better, and that's what I'm using it for. And I use it at nighttime if you're curious. Uh, if you guys want to check out any of their products, whether there's the gummies, the tinctures, the functional mushroom products, the balms and rubs, etc, etc. They've got a lot of different stuff. If you want to save 30% on the order, you can get it with uh, the code Jiu-Jitsu 30 at checkout at Charlesweb.com. Also, thanks to our buddies over at Epic Roll. Epic Roll is a jiu-jitsu brand company made by a black belt who's out rolling, competing, and doing the whole thing just like us. And again, they support a lot of different, uh, up and comers. They support the PGF, uh, competition that, uh, gets going, the Professional Grappling Federation. And again, it's, uh, it's a product I use. I use the, the rash guards every single day and I've been getting my gis made through them for a long time now. So again, um, it's a good company. If you guys want to check them out, you can go to their website at Epicrollbjj.com. They've got a lot of good, uh, gear and good designs, good customer service, the whole deal. And if you want to save 20% on the order, use Jiu-Jitsu code, Jiu-Jitsu 20 for 20% off the order at checkout at Epicrollbjj.com. Also, thanks to our newest sponsor, Datsusara. You can check them out at DSgear.com. Don't worry, you don't have to remember Datsusara, but DSgear.com. The promo code is Jiu-Jitsu 10. So again, we've been using a lot of their bags recently. That was like when they came on as a, as a sponsor, I was like, let me check out those bags. If you guys aren't familiar with our sort of sponsorship policy, um, we don't take sponsors that we don't like, don't believe in, and don't think would be valuable to people because I consider you guys as an extension of my students. Some of you guys that listen to it are my students. And, uh, you know, I don't mind, I'll sell the hell out of something if I believe in it, but I can't sell it if I don't really enjoy it. And that's why I don't do ad reads on this whole thing. I don't want to be like, hey, guys, do you know what's really great? These new potato chips are amazing. You know, we all seen those, right? I don't want to do that. I'd rather just do like products I really enjoy and think would be really cool. So, they gave us the bags. We got the fanny pack, got the, uh, the big, the big, uh, like 45 liter backpack. Um, they're tanks, right? Uh, and we'll talk a little bit more about their stuff later on. Uh, but I've been using the, uh, the fanny pack pretty much every day. I put my like doggy treats in it. So when I'm taking Obi for a walk, we walk around and give him some little doggy treats. And I've got his poop bags, asshole. He, uh, dude, I the other day, he keeps doing this thing where like, I'll walk him out in our backyard, he poops, I'll get his stuff, throw it away, and I'm like, now let's go on our walk. So I don't have to go, yeah, whatever, you know. So then we're going and then of course, like, it's like, you know, we're I'm planning on going like a 30, 40 minute walk with him. And about 20 minutes into it, he poops. And it's like, I'm like, dude, I don't want to carry around your hot poop for the next 20 minutes, right? So, but anyway, um, you know, I have the fanny pack and I've also used the big bag and I'm starting to use that as my like go-to gym bag. It's a tank. It's got all the pockets you need to get your belt, your gi, everything else. Um, it fits in there great. Um, and again, it's made from hemp, you know, it's made from hemp is is it's main product. And he'll talk more about that later on on the products, uh, or on the, on the podcast. But that said, if you guys want to check out their stuff, DSgear.com, I'll just give you a heads up, it's not the cheapest gear ever, right? So if you're looking for that like the Temu, whatever it is, the junk where you, you know, you get it and it tears apart really fast, it's not your thing. But if you want like something of quality, something that's going to last you for a long time, um, that you'll like as soon as you pick it up, you will like feel it. There's like a tangible, ooh, this is something, this is substantial, then again, if you're that kind of person, which I am, I like their stuff. Um, I've enjoyed their gear and I think that it would be useful for anybody that wants less stuff, but higher quality stuff. Um, so you can check them out at DSgear.com. Jiu-Jitsu 10 is the code. Also, thanks to our Patreon members. You guys are supporting the podcast as well, and we appreciate you. If you want to become a Patreon member, you can do so by rolling on over to the website at patreon.com/theJiu-Jitsu podcast. And when you join up, you'll get access to the list of perks that we have. If you want to check that out, go to that website. Um, and this includes everything from podcast extras from our guests, content that we don't release from the podcast that's there, like basically little podcast extras with me and Eugene as well. We also have recordings from seminars and warm-up routines and stretching routines that Eugene's put together and that I've put together. That and more at the Patreon at patreon.com/theJiu-Jitsu podcast. And, uh, last but not least, guys, if you want to get my daily email, you can do so by going to my website at jiu-jitsu.net/join. I send it out daily. If you want to get access to it, when you join up, you also get access to an ebook and video guide that goes into some ideas on how to become more focused with your jiu-jitsu training. A lot of people are sort of running around with their heads cut off and consuming too much and not becoming effective with any of it. And so it's a way to help you get a little bit more dialed in and give you some tips on ways that you can maybe make that happen. See and get more focused with your training, be more deliberate and improve faster. That's that's the whole goal. So you get that, you get my daily email. If you enjoy the podcast, you'll love the rants in the email. And again, that's at jiu-jitsu.net/join. So, guys, with that said, let's jump into this podcast with Chris. Speaker 2: How did you get started in jiu-jitsu and grappling and martial arts in general? Speaker 1: So, well, I mean, when I was really young, like, God, like 11 or 12 or something like that, I did like a little bit of Koy Kondo because I had a friend that was doing it and I wanted to check out some kind of martial art. Didn't have a very good experience with that. I mean, I think I spent like three months just learning like one punch and then it was and it and they were they spent most of their time trying to get you to get other people to sign up. That was like, that was how you got rewards and things. So, it was a little weird. Anyway, so I kind of I dropped it. I was like, ah, maybe it's not for me. That's fine. Speaker 2: It's like you're in like a you're in one of those like multi-level marketing. Speaker 1: It really felt like that. Speaker 2: It's it's multi-level marketing, Eugene, not a pyramid scheme. Speaker 1: Yeah. And when you tempt the kid with like, hey, you can get the throwing stars if, you know, you just get somebody signed up. I'm like, oh, yes, please. So. Yeah, right. But yeah, so I holding the athletic tape out in front of him. Come here, big guy, Billy, do you want to get this stripe? Go get. That's right. So, that didn't go too far. Um, but I always liked, uh, I, you know, I always liked the Bruce Lee films and things like that. And so, um, I'd gotten to a point in my life when I was pretty much just doing mostly work at at desks. I mean, I was doing video productions, uh, and just, you know, barely doing any kind of exercise at all. And then I had a friend that was getting into we were used to play ping pong and stuff. We were messing around and then he got into tennis and he's like, hey, you want to join me? I'm like, ah, sure, whatever. I hadn't picked up a racket in years. And I started doing that and I lost a little weight and got active again. I went, oh, I kind of missed this. But then I I still I I had this urge to go find a martial art still. And I was still a fan of like Bruce Lee films and all that. I went, you know, it seems like maybe that would be a decent way to go. So I like I looked around everywhere to see if I could find Jeet Kune Do. And there was a guy, um, where I was up in the, uh, California in the Bay Area at the time. And there was a guy who was teaching, but he was teaching not like concepts like in a Santo where it's kind of evolved. He was teaching more of the old like whatever Bruce was teaching back in, you know, 1960 or something. So he was kind of stuck just emulating that. And, um, and somewhere along the line when I was training in that, um, somebody brought by a UFC, you know, classic story. Somebody brought by a UFC on on DVD or whatever. And, uh, then we watched that and I went, damn, like, okay, like, this seems like the real thing. And I was just fascinated, you know, like a lot of us and like, okay, this is, you know, we really wanted to see what would happen. Okay, is Sumo, you know, going to beat the little wrestler guy or whatever, you know, what's how's this going to work? And, um, and so I I kind of decided at that point. I said, well, even though I don't really want to do all this groundwork and and wrestling and jiu-jitsu, I feel like this is the this is the MMA is the real deal and I've got to go find that. So, um, I looked around and I found a place. There was a, uh, it was a a straight blast gym, uh, at the time it was called Modern Combatives, but anyway, it was a straight blast gym in Berkeley. And, um, and started there. And originally, I didn't want to do jiu-jitsu. I just thought that was I was like, man, I don't I had like issues with touching people that much. Didn't want to be on the ground. But I liked I'd see like Chuck Liddell and I'd go, yeah, I want to be like that. I just want to learn enough so that I can get back up and punch people in the face. And then I did I trained mostly I did a little jiu-jitsu, but mostly kickboxing and Muay Thai for the first, I don't know, six or seven months and went and had a little friendly, uh, competition fight with one of our other gyms up in Oregon. And just stand up though. And I got punched in the head enough times. I went, okay, maybe not. Maybe maybe I should learn this jiu-jitsu thing because this really sucks. Speaker 2: Yeah. Like stand up is great when you're doing the punching, but it's not that fun when you're getting hit and, um, you know, that's just that's part of it, part and parcel, right? You have to be able to deal with the hits. Uh, what what what time period is this? Like what year is this roughly? Speaker 1: Oh, so this was, um, it was late 2005 when I started. So, pretty long time ago. Yeah. So, and I kept up with that. Um, I did start transitioning doing more jiu-jitsu after that. Um, and I trained there for, God, I don't know how many years. But then I then I started moving around to a lot of different places and, you know, long story short, uh, took me about nine years before someone gave me a blue belt. So, it was crazy because even like, even within the first couple years, I was as good as the guys who were getting promoted. I'd often beat them, but I I had a teacher that wasn't very thrilled with it. I think I was over-relying on my guard because especially dealing with a more MMA side. I was like, okay, I kind of weak in the upper body, but I was good with the legs. And I felt like, okay, I'm going to end up here anyway. So, I'm going to get really good at playing closed guard. And that's when I kind of got a little tempted over to like rubber guard and stuff like that and hanging out with the 10th Planet guys on occasion. So, I kind of I cross-trained a little and then I moved around a lot, trained at different gyms and finally just got to be silly because I was a four-stripe white belt for, you know, forever. And so, one of my buddies said, hey, why don't just come train with me for like six months and you're going to do that competition anyway. Train under me for that, you know, and like, I'll just I'm going to promote you because this is ridiculous. Like, this is just getting silly. And, um, and so yeah, and he did and then, yeah, it's been it's been a long time and a lot of moves since and I'm still I'm still just now I'm a three-stripe blue belt, but I've been training probably almost 15 years if you add it all up. I took a long, long break. Like I took like a six or seven year break and just played golf and gave up on jiu-jitsu for a minute. But, um, it's really nice to be back. But it is, yeah, sometimes there are days where I just go, really? Like, you know, everybody else is like, oh yeah, 10 years to black belt. I'm like, not for me. Speaker 2: Well, so what what sort of what caused all the moving? Was it work stuff or were you just like changing gyms? Speaker 1: Some of it a lot of it is that I just move too much. I'm always trying to find like, oh, maybe this place would be interesting. Maybe this would be a little better. And I I got married again, um, but first I was just dating a girl and I moved down to where she was a little like an hour away from where I was at. And, um, and even just that, you know, sometimes going that far away, it was tough to find another gym that was going to work. And, um, yeah, and then just moved all over the place. I went down, lived in the Redwoods, and then we moved up to Oregon, just trying to find somewhere that was going to be great and somewhere to raise once we decided to have a kid. I was like, oh, let's let's try here. Um, yeah, and just kind of just bounced around a lot checking out different places, which was fun, but it yeah, it it it it made training difficult because and then even when let's say I was up in outside of Portland for I think four or five years. And a lot of great jiu-jitsu there. I mean, I but I trained at all the different gyms because I was because of the company everything. I was kind of like, oh, I'll go over and say hi to 10th Planet. I'll go say hi to Impact. I'll go say hi to SBG. Um, you know, all these different places, which was great, but I was kind of just I didn't have any one particular teacher or a school where I was really I was primarily at Impact, but not enough to really get promoted. And sure. And to be fair too, if I take some ownership of it, I'm also a stubborn bastard and I really like learning the more of the martial arts and like, hey, if I get in a street fight aspect. So like, I'm not really interested. I mean, I think sports jiu-jitsu is great and it's fun. I'll watch it, but it's not my thing. So a lot of times if I was at certain schools or certain things were being taught, it just wasn't something I was going to integrate into my game. And so then I would seem, you know, fairly limited. I mean, I'm I'm much more of a I like, you know, like the Hickson kind of Henry Akins, you know, Chris Burns sort of that style. Like I don't even like using gi grips, although I like training in the gi. Uh, things like that. So some of it's just my own stubbornness too. I just I don't I I I know what I want to learn and I have to just accept that if that means I'm not going to get promoted as quickly as other people, but I've got a game that I like that I think stands up to if there's strikes involved, um, then I've got to be okay with that. So, yeah. What what brought you back to you said you had a pretty long break. What what was the desire to get back to training after that long break? And and how was it? Was it tough to get back to training? Your body was kind of letting you know that that you kind of been out of it for a while. Speaker 1: Yeah, it was because even when even when I stopped, I guess what I would have been in like my my I think I was just getting to be about 40 and like, you know, I was feeling it. I had a lot of times where I used to have great flexible shoulders and then one day I went, oh, I think I took I I let one Americana go too far and I just went to pick up my daughter and I went, oh, like I couldn't do this motion, you know, and I that wasn't good. So, but that kind of healed up a little bit on its own, but I've always had bad rotator cuffs since. And so yeah, taking I I basically I moved back to my old hometown and there was no at the time, there was no jiu-jitsu gym there. So I would have had to drive an hour and that just wasn't wasn't happening. And, um, still raising the kid and stuff and just thought it's not going to happen. And, uh, so and I oddly got into golf. Never thought I would in my life. And but my, uh, my in-laws, my Korean in-laws, uh, shockingly love golf. And so they they took me out one day and I went, why have I been dogging on this? This is like a sport in a Zen Garden. This is amazing. And so I actually really, really enjoyed it. So I kind of got I took all the energy that I would have put into jiu-jitsu and things like that before and just got obsessed with that for quite a few years. Um, and then when I moved here to Texas, um, there was a straight blast gym near here. Uh, the person who opened it, Michael Heinz, is kind of a student under John Frankel, who I've known since the early days. He's kind of out in, uh, pretty much introduced jiu-jitsu to Korea. Um, and so yeah, he said, oh, you should go by and check it out and say hi because I've got a, you know, my my buddy opened up a gym there, my student there. And, um, so I went by and said hi and I signed up and I went, eh, okay, I'm going to drop by every now and then. But I don't know what happened. At some point, the bug just came back, you know, I just had started getting a little better. Things started coming back to me. And I missed I I missed the I missed the workout, the way that and and the way that it's a meditative workout and the way that you don't get with a lot of other things. Um, and I really missed the community. I think in more than I realized. I just realized those are my kind of weirdos, you know, something about the jiu-jitsu people that are just they're like they're down I mean, they I don't know. There there's less bullshit and and they tend to be, I don't know, interesting people. Kind kind of kind of dorks, but like, you know, into weird stuff, but also just interesting people into this, um, yeah, into this martial art that's just, I don't know. I find it attracts a lot of a lot of people that I like being around and it's I missed that a lot. Speaker 2: Well, I think too, you know, when we come into the gym, we don't want to sort of I mean, it happens some places, but you don't want to dump out all the like negative, political, whatever stuff. So it forces you to be a little bit more interesting, right? You know, like you're you're pretty boring if if the only thing that you got are like whatever the talking points are from whatever sort of like news person you're listening to, whereas like, you know, me and the guys a lot of times we're sharing books that we read or we're talking about stuff going on with our kids and we're talking about all these things. And we could be on completely opposite ends of the, uh, of whatever political or religious spectrum that we're on. But at the same time, we're trying not to pervert the space by getting into all that stuff. So therefore, it forces you to be a little bit more interesting than just sort of going to that. Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. Speaker 2: So, John Frankel, is he the guy that's like super famous in Korea? Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. He's like, he's just like, yeah, if it was not for him, there probably wouldn't be any jiu-jitsu over there. And he's pretty much, yeah, he's the guy over there. And he's been with Straight Blast for a while. Yeah. Speaker 2: I forgot who was telling me about this. It's like the the guy is like a he's a rock star there. Like when he like goes over there, it's not like a casual thing. Like it's like they pick him up and it's he is the dude, right? Like, I mean, imagine like the one of the Gracies say circa late 90s, early 2000s here if they come in and it's just a big deal. You know. Speaker 1: It could be. I have no I it's totally possible. Speaker 2: I don't know if it's I don't know if it's the same guy, but I I feel like I talked to someone and I think it was like at a seminar and the guy was telling me about this. But, um, I was just curious. Speaker 1: What made him so popular? Speaker 2: Just he was the guy that spread it there. He's like, he was the guy that he was like one of the first guys out there, you know. Um, and so where did you end up moving to? You said you bounced around a lot, right? Looking for the right place. Where did you end up moving to? Speaker 1: Well, I got a little bit, I don't know, when things when the world got weird and the lockdowns happened and all that, um, I I just for I was like, okay, there's too much insanity out. I was, you know, in California. Speaker 2: Were you in California at the time? Speaker 1: I was and although I was I was in a small town where like we largely weren't affected by it and I could kind of like tell my daughter like, hey, when we go to the city, see all the crazy people, but like at home, it was mostly okay. But I I you know, I had one trip to LA at one point for something. I think it was for the 10th Planet anniversary party actually. And just being down there for a few more days. I was like, I got to get the fuck out of this state. This is it just creeped me out. And, uh, might have been a little hasty because we did have a good thing there and I missed the land and and I have I have family there. Like my mother just turned 80. And even though she's active and pretty healthy, you know, like I'm her only kid. That's her only granddaughter that I have. So I feel bad and we may have to we may have to turn tail and go back at some point. But, um, but I but I really did. I was just tired of the bullshit and I I said, all right, let's just get out of there. And I so my wife had grown up in Texas and, you know, we had visited a few times and I went, that seems like a well-run state and and it is. I love I love the people here. So I'm in New Braunfels, Texas, about an hour south of Austin, or a little north of, uh, San Antonio. And it's, you know, for here, it's a small town. It's only 100,000 people compared to like Austin or San Antonio. But it's still more crowded than I like. I've realized I I really like small, quiet, out of the way places. But, um, but still, it's a it's a nice town and the gym is great here. That's the one thing if I leave again, it'll be tough to tough to go. You know, you get attached to a family of people at your at your gym and that can be that can be really hard to switch that up. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you back then when all that stuff was going on, you didn't know when it was going to stop. Speaker 1: Yeah, that was the thing. Speaker 2: Right? Because like because it's like if you if you knew that there was like a time stamp, like this is only going to last till X time, it would have been fine. But there was so much uncertainty. And I mean, and depending on where you were at, like, you know, where I'm at in Kentucky, in Louisville, it's a good size city and stuff, but we most of the places, we were all pretty over it like within somewhere in 2020. And I mean, you could you could go out to restaurants, you could play the game of putting the mask on and then you sit down. And we all kind of like played around like it was it was the dumbest shit ever. You thought it was like, it's like when, you know, it's like the kid who like, you know, gets scared and they cover themselves up with their blanket, so nothing's going to get them kind of thing. It's like, what? Like this is so silly. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: But, um, but then we were kind of over it. But in California, I remember like, I remember getting messages from people who were like, this is 2021, like deep into 2021. I'm getting messages from people in other states like New York and California. They're like, don't you feel like you're kind of being like irresponsible by training with so many people? I said, no, like, nobody's nobody's everybody's fine. All my students like all my my students have all are all fine. We all got it and most of us had no issues with it whatsoever. Like, no, like. Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it was it was wild to see and it was like, yeah, even though again, in my hometown there, it was most people let go of it quick enough, but it but going around the state and just seeing what it did what it had done to people's minds. I just people were got messed up. And they took advantage of it too to also stuff all this other crazy political stuff all at the same time. And it just got to a point where I went, okay, like, you know, everybody just has mental health issues. I just I couldn't I was like, I'm surrounded by absolutely crazy people and it's not even totally their fault. But I was also worried just about government overreach. I was like, well, if they pulled this off, what else are they going to do? And I felt like the state there wasn't going to do anything to protect anybody's rights. So it was it was a little bit concerning to say the least. I mean, I've gone back since and it's back in my hometown, you almost wouldn't know anything had changed. And I go, well, I could probably go back and put on the blinders and and maybe now that I'm back in jiu-jitsu and I'm not as deep into politics, uh, because I did get there for a second because it dragged me in too. Um, now I'm back to sanity. Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if you're I mean, back in 2020, I felt like it got everybody for at least a little bit because you were sitting there and like, I've always been kind of like disconnected from it because I think they're all scumbags for the most part. And, you know, not everybody's lying to you, right? Everybody's got an agenda. Um, unless you find some place, but everybody's getting paid somewhere on the back end or being directed. Uh, you know, and like, but but it got you because for the longest time, all the main news outlets were off of those platforms, social media and stuff like that, right? And then they got on them and they got preferential treatment on YouTube and Instagram, things like that where like, I there were like YouTube was like pumping them up because you'd have these big mainstream news articles coming there. So you're getting hit with it. And then every Tom, Dick and Harry became like a a political hot take person. You know, people that were like, they they were like the fitness niche and all of a sudden they're giving their political hot takes. I'm like, you're a guy that lifts weights. I don't care about your geopolitical sort of thinking. Like, you have no idea what's going on. Um, and so it was just like, you couldn't it was so hard to get away from it and you had to catch yourself. Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it used to be back in the day. I mean, before you had social media and all that, it was like, okay, there were uninformed people, but they largely just they weren't they weren't motivated to go yell at anybody. They're just like, well, whatever. I have an opinion, but I'm not going to get into it. But then somehow it encouraged everybody to just be super proactive. And in fact, if you weren't speaking out, you're a bad person. So, you know, go out and say something. So yeah, it just became such a mess. It actually even got to a point with me where I remember calling like Rogan actually called me back one day because I was like, man, how do you deal with it? Like, you're on the airwaves and like, you have these opinions and I have strong opinions, but I but I I don't deal well because I was having people like from across the country who had seen a couple of things I had posted. I was like, I don't think this is a good idea. And they're like, he's a scumbag. Don't buy anything from his company. And like really coming at me and like, if you come out to New York, I'm going to throw hands with you. I was like, holy shit, you know, and kind of spooked me out because I just I don't I don't deal well with that kind of that that stuff bothers me. Speaker 2: It's weird energy. Speaker 1: Yeah, I just not not good. So I remember Joe calling me and I'm like, how do you do it, man? He's like, it just we had a long conversation. He's such a nice guy to to give me the time. But, uh, yeah, it just, I don't know. You got to be cut out a little different for that. But I it kind of spooked me a lot and I just I kind of got jaded about the world, got spooked out and I finally was like, yeah, I'm going to I'm just going to go to Texas and just lay low for a while. But, um, yeah, so, it's a, yeah, it's been a weird weird journey. Speaker 2: It was a crazy time for a lot of us. And I think part of it is everybody was kind of separated and isolated. And, you know, there's not a lot to do besides like consume, you know, on your own or consume social media and stuff. Speaker 1: Or like you couldn't go out and like, like we won't we'll get off this topic soon. But like we we couldn't I remember it was wild because like you couldn't go out and eat food in a restaurant. You couldn't go out. You weren't you were discouraged from doing like things like in some places like you're in California like going to the beach. Right? But you could go down the street and you could have signs and yell and scream in large groups. But you couldn't go out into a park. Like, you know, now in Kentucky, obviously, it was not like that. We were pretty pretty loose. But even though you couldn't go to a restaurant, but then we had at the downtown, they had protests and stuff. I'm like, well, like that that's when I like we reopened our gym to sort of like like I'm like, if you guys are doing this, we're going to do this. You have a like multiple thousands of people here, then I'm going to have like 50 people training tonight and you can get over it. And that's just what it's going to be, you know. Um, we're we're having our peaceful assembly, you can, you know, you can go stuff it. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: And it was kind of wild. I remember talking to all my jiu-jitsu friends that I still knew and I was like, what are you guys up to these days during the they're like, oh, like it was like jiu-jitsu speak easy, you know, like, okay, well, we've got somebody's basement and we're, you know, keep it low key. It was it was a little nuts. But. Speaker 2: It was underground. That's how like, that's part of the way one of our we started having 6:00 a.m. classes at the gym. And it was kind of started just because a couple of guys were like, hey, you want to just get together, just a couple of us. And then word got out and then more people started coming in. And now the classes started just kind of, you know, it's just one of those things like it it's so hard because you lose that community as well. Like with jiu-jitsu, it's like, chew it. I would still get together. And we actually, you know, it was crazy that people were trying to do a lot of podcasts at the time. And so we would still kind of get together and do that stuff. But it was it was weird. It was like the, you know, for you, it's probably the longest break you ever took and I mean, I don't know how long a break you took. But it was for me, it was a long break. Um, but I was like, well, eventually like, it's just just get back to normal, I guess and then go from there. So. Speaker 1: Yeah, it was tough on companies too. I'll tell you that. Like I mean, I I was kind of annoyed too with the government on that one because they're like, well, we're going to make it so that you pretty much can't do business, but we will give you a loan. If you want a nice loan. And it's like, yeah, it's a low interest rate, but you're still you made the problem. Now I'm I'm like, I'm still paying off that loan. Speaker 2: Oh, and they're still going to tax you. Like you still have to have rent due. Like our taxes went up when we technically weren't supposed technically, weren't supposed to be open. Like what sense does this make? Speaker 1: Yeah. How is that? Right? Yeah, very unfair. Yeah, it it I don't know. It was it was a little rough. I'm still trying to get the business back to where it was before that. I mean, it pretty much cut our sales in half and still hasn't ever quite come back. And then on top of that, you've got all the raising, you know, prices of everything since then, which make it make it tough too. Speaker 2: Yeah, so tell me about that. How did you get into the I don't know what businesses you do. I know you said you were talking about video production earlier and, um, but I know you obviously own Datsusara. If you have another business, that's fine. You can talk about that. But like what what when did you get started with Datsusara or in just business in general? Speaker 1: That was about two well, so before I did Datsusara and before I started training, well, actually, while I started training, I had a video productions company. Um, and it was so I was still kind of my own boss for the most part at that point. Um, you know, I had clients and whatnot. But, um, yeah, at some point, it started just it started kind of driving me a little crazy. Like I just it sucked because I was really good at it. I I I think I don't say that about a lot of things in my life, but I was I got pretty good. And, uh, but I just I wasn't I I started to hate it. And I started to hate also the fact that most of it relied on sitting down and being in front of the computer and like my back's getting fucked up and it just wasn't it wasn't good to be staring at screens all day and doing that. Um, so I was trying to think of something else to do. And I had just started training in MMA and all that. And I I was looking around. I'm like, well, I kind of like I want to make like a product or something, you know, instead of having clients and dealing with that. What could I do for the community or what do we need that could be improved upon? And I kind of looked over at the gym bags that everybody had. And I went, you know, these are first of all, they're not really made for MMA. They don't have the right pockets for everything. And they're made out of these, you know, they're just crappy synthetic materials. And I thought I've always had a love of hemp textiles, probably because I used to be a bit of a stoner. And, um, but I knew that hemp was great. And I was like, man, why doesn't somebody do something besides making hippie bags out of this? And and, uh, and so I thought, well, I'm I'm going to design an MMA bag. And I, you know, I pretty much like did it on like just drawing it out on paper like a big box and like, okay, this pocket should be this size and this should be this size. And I took my my measly like $3,000 of savings, uh, in my my life, uh, and I put it into the first, um, hundred or so bags. It was a little lot cheaper back then. Um, and, uh, yeah, and I got those and kind of got them to my friends in the gym and and sent them to a few people. Most of that didn't pan out. Um, funny enough, of course, I I should have guessed this, but the two people that got back to me that were kind of famous and and said anything were Eddie Bravo and Joe Rogan. And, uh, which I I should have I should have known. Um, uh, but yeah, and I just kept turning over the money. Like I didn't take anything out of the company for a while. Like I just take the profit from that, put it back into making more and expanding it. Eventually, we started doing, uh, you know, 100% hemp jiu-jitsu gis, um, and just kind of kept expanding it out. And I think after about I started that in 2007. So about four years later is when I was able to do it full-time. And I was still shipping things out of my garage and all that, but I was able to actually cut out all the video work. I was just kind of slowly cut out the pain in the ass clients one by one, like, you know, in succession until I just said, all right, I'm done. I'm going to let this go. And, uh, and I'm going to do this full-time. And that, you know, and it went well. It went really well for a while. And then we kind of, I think when we peaked out was kind of when EBI was a was a big thing. Like we because we sponsored some of those. And there was just a moment where everything was like coming up and and everybody it seemed like was just, I don't know, they were they were loving what we were doing and we were in the spotlight a little bit. And when EBI was, you know, for the first few, like everybody was watching that. That was a big deal. And then it kind of tapered off a little bit. Yeah, and then of course, yeah, the the lockdown years came. But, um, but yeah, for a moment there, it was it was it was like just a ton of fun. And it still is. It's nice to come back. But yeah, because I kind of I was a little bit away from the helm when I was when I was mostly just golfing and taking a break. I mean, I was still concentrated on the things I've always done at a minimum, which is making a really, really good product. I've always been a product focused company and then customer service next and then worrying about marketing and stuff has always been our weak spot. Um, but, uh, but I always made sure we were shipping good product. But definitely, uh, took too much of a step back probably from paying attention to what was going on with the company when, uh, especially when I wasn't training. So, it's good for me on multiple levels to be back in the gym. Speaker 2: Yeah, the marketing side of it's important, right? Like it's, uh, you know, especially depending on what like kind of person you are. If you really get geeked out over the products, um, a lot of times, you know, it's like, I mean, it's like jiu-jitsu. Like jiu-jitsu coaches make this mistake, right? Where they like, man, I'm like so good at jiu-jitsu and I've won all these things and everybody's just going to come because of this. I'm like, nobody's coming because of that, right? Like. Speaker 1: Yeah, not going to happen. Speaker 2: Some there'll be some people, right? And word gets around, but not like, uh, not like they expect. I I think I came across your stuff in 2013. One of my buddies, Brent, had got a hold of your stuff. He was a Bellator fighter. And he, uh, he had a he had the bag and he'd given me a pair of the shorts. It was like black shorts with like a silver Datsusara logo. I still have those shorts. You know, like I mean, like I've worn them like off and on for, I mean, what is it? 12, 13 years now? Like, they're still together. I mean, it's pretty impressive. But, you know, I remember the stuff was back then. I remember it was like it was like heavy duty. You know, like when you get a hold of one of the bags or whatever, it's, you know, going back to your idea of like quality. Uh, you know, there's sometimes you get a hold of something that's a little bit on the pricier side and you feel it and you're like, what did I pay for exactly? Yeah. Um, you know, you see this all the time with like handbags and stuff, you know, you're like, why is this crazy? How is this thing cost $10,000? This is just a cheap whatever. Um, nuts, right? But then like, you know, every now and then you do get a hold of something and you put your hands on it and you feel it and there's a certain feel to it where you're like, oh, no, this is like something like when my wife and I would walk we were when we were shopping around for houses some years ago, you would walk into a house and like sometimes it's like they just did a flip and you're touching the material. Everything feels so cheap, right? And then you go walk into a house where it was like this guy was just like a a handy person who just loved fixing the house and you walk around and everything is just solid. Everything's like small details to it. And we were like, this is a really like well-put-together home that's like sturdy, whatever. And so, when you get a hold of your stuff, it's like you instantly feel, oh, this is like there's something to this. It's not like some flimsy stuff that was made in somewhere, right? Where they're just cranking them out and slapping on different logos. This is like a a really well-made product. Speaker 1: Yeah. I've always appreciated things like that. I think even from since I was a little kid, both my mom and my dad were always very much like, you know, buy get a thing of quality and and, you know, really enjoy that and and have something that's going to last rather than buying these, you know, cheap things that you're going to replace or just, yeah, putting a veneer on something and, you know, making it look kind of good when really it's garbage. And that always that kind of thing stuck with me. Like I've got this nail file in my desk here that's from Germany that I think my mom bought me when I, you know, finally left the house back many, you know, what, 30 something more years ago now, almost 40 years. Uh, but, uh, and, uh, and and it's still great. It still works fantastically. It's awesome, you know, it was like just it's a quality product. And I I love that. So I I try my best to do everything we can to build our our gear, you know, like like tanks, just something that's really going to going to hold up. And it it always falls short of what I would like it to do. But I but I I get I don't know. I really one of the things I love the most is when I do get out every now and then and I'm not just looking at emails and stuff. Like I went out to a Chris Burns seminar, um, out in Florida. And I ran into two or three people that had my bags there and it had them for like, you know, 10 years. And then they're like, oh, this thing's been every competition with me. I've had it forever. And, um, that stuff I I just love. I'm like, okay, I I I at least I'm doing something useful here on the planet. It makes me feel a little better. Speaker 2: That's that's when you're whip out your phone and you're like, say that again now. Speaker 1: Yeah, right. See now that's where like, I need someone to follow me around and be the marketing guy and be like, no, no, no, no, no, like, you got to do this because it's hard. I have to force myself just to even go to that level. Like I know there's nothing wrong about it with what I'm doing, but I I too am weary of advertising. I I'm also you're talking about Bernays the other day. And like and and I'm, you know, I hate manipulative. Speaker 2: Oh, you you heard me talking about Edward Bernays. Where did you was it on the podcast? Speaker 1: Yes, on the podcast. And I was like, oh yeah, someone else who knows that guy. Yeah, so I mean, I'm the guy who I block every ad I can. I pay I'll pay if they give me a choice to pay and not see ads, I'll do it. I don't I just don't like ads. Like if I want to find something, I will go search for it. Leave me the hell alone. But at the same time, I have to realize that I don't know. It it's tough. It's tough running a company and and that's probably why we're not a multi-million dollar like huge, you know, giant company the way that some of some other people are. But then again, I'm also still here. Like everyone that, you know, kind of tight ship and, you know, we we've gotten through a lot of times where I've seen companies come and go. And, uh, and at least at the end of the day, I I I sleep reasonably well knowing that I, I don't know. I yeah, I'm not doing weird marketing and trying to blast people with tons of ads and crap. Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, but you know, there's also the side of it. And this is how I think of it because as a business owner, I'm with you. Like I there's a certain point of like business and sort of managing the business versus like the relationships and like how I feel about myself, my own integrity. Um, and there's a line I won't cross, right? But at the same time, it's like, you know, I think about like, you know, like what I do. Okay, I'm like, I'm a coach. I'm helping these people out. Like, if someone, like let's say if someone were marketing the gym, do I believe that if someone trains with me for 12 like 12 months, just one year, that they will be better for it? Absolutely, I do. Whether you're a kid, whatever, I think we can really help you. And I think the gym, the environment, the training, all that stuff. We have all the resources to help you in whatever whatever your goals, we can help you. And so like, I think about myself being younger and I think about some of our students. Even some of my I had a guy come in one time who he was on his 12th like 12th touch, right? Where we've contacted him at various times. 12th time even contacted. And he said, thank you for following up with me. Sometimes I don't get around. But he came in and like trained, signed up. He brought his family in, he brought his brother in, he trained with us for a number of years before he moved. And I remember him saying, thank you for doing that because sometimes I get really scatterbrained and I forget about things. I appreciate you guys staying up on me. You know what I mean? Like he got such a great experience from it. And with your stuff, it's like, you have you have this great material. Um, obviously, you know, it's quality. It's made from this natural material. Like it's not some weird synthetic crap. Um, you know, if someone gets one of your bags, it's going to last them for a long time and they can enjoy that versus having to replace it because it's junk and it breaks next year. Um, and so I, you know, for me thinking about it, like, you've got a great product and you've got a great thing. And like, especially if someone's saying it, they're like, dude, this this bag's been great. I don't think of it as like being manipulative. Like he's like with Bernays. Bernays is like paying a doctor to say some shit that's not true, right? Like. Speaker 1: It's a little different, right? Speaker 2: Bernays is great. It's like versus this guy says he loves your bag. Like, like, just share that because if you guys get this bag, you're going to be great. It's like the the, you know, some of the different products that are out there. If it's a good product, man. I mean. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Anyway, that's that's my spiel. You got something good to sell, freaking sell the hell out of it, you know. Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think you're right. And I think I think it's something that I I I am trying again to sort of just figure out how to do this in a way that that doesn't bother me and give it to someone who actually knows all that and and and doesn't feel squirmish about running ads and whatnot. And I I have to the other part that gets to me is is is dealing with social media because I go, okay, like, I get it. Like, this is where people mostly get their information from and where they're going to find me. But I hate giving money to those companies because of like so many things. I'm like, man, I don't want to give meta any money. Yeah. Yeah, it kills me. And then I also, you know, just mental health-wise, I know that we'd all probably be better off if we weren't on there that much. So I'm like, man, I'm just kind of feeding into the beast. But it but it's, you know, at some point, like you said, if if you're going to help people and you got to find them where they're at and and, yeah, I need to kind of I need to kind of get over it. But that's why I've got to like hire people to deal with marketing so that it's not in my hands because if it's in my hands, I it's never going to happen and we're just going to be like, you know, a small club of people that happen to know about us. So. Speaker 2: Yeah. I think you have to be, um, I think you have to be honest with what kind of what you say, right? Don't like. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Claim something that's not. Like, cuz cuz then you lose trust, right? So that's kind of the main thing. It's like, if we have like a product we, you know, we have on on the podcast, like we like we used to talk about it honestly. Like we use it. We're like, all right, do we like this? Do we not like it? Yeah. And it's just you have to be because I think it's more genuine that way. And you're not like you would hate like somebody buying something and thinking they're getting one thing and then they end up getting something else that they just hate or it falls short. Now, everybody's going to love everything, of course. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: But I think so it is a good time for companies that are trustworthy and making good things to kind of establish themselves because I I think sooner or later, people are going to be getting off of social media or at least not paying much attention because when every other scroll is an ad and from some other random company, you know, people are going to stop caring so much. It's going to be tough. Speaker 1: I think so. You know, it's uh you're already seeing a little bit, but, you know, people know what it's doing to them. Um, you know, and whether or not they're choosing to get off of it. I mean, like I'm not on it much because I can't stand it. And like, I mean, there was a whistleblower that had a congressional hearing. And during that hearing, she was talking about like how the the people that make and own and produce these products, not products, but these companies, Meta and, you know, all this stuff, social media, they don't let their kids use the product, right? They keep their they keep their kids away from it, right? Like. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: Like that tells you something. You know, um, and then it's like, you know, Steve Jobs famously didn't let his kids have iPhones or iPads when they were young. It's like, they knew what it was doing. And, you know, and in it's sad like where you see people where, you know, I'm not saying a little bit here and there is fine, but like, you know, they they've got little zombie like tablet toddlers. Kids don't go out and play. They they have weakened core strength. Like everybody's running around keeping their kids locked up because they're terrified of their neighbors. You're like, what world do we freaking live in? It's like, you realize like 30 years ago, this place like the crime was like on par where it is now and maybe a little bit worse. And like, you guys are locking your kids up like it's it's like you you need to get off social media and stop digesting news. It's not that bad out there. Um, but yeah, I understand it's like I hate I I'm on those platforms and I use them, you know, but I don't want to be a product of them, you know, that kind of thing. I don't want my family to be either. So. Speaker 2: Yeah, use responsibly. Speaker 1: I know. I also it is also why I in this, you know, with this way things are, jiu-jitsu is, you know, super super important, I think, at least for people like me and and and a lot of people just that that human contact. I mean, you're really you can't get much closer with contact than that. So, it's I think it's really good for people to just get, yeah, get off the phone, go do something with your body and go see other people and have to interact with them because people are losing that ability to just talk to each other and and interact. It's it's kind of it's getting getting weird. Speaker 2: Well, they the ability, you know, you kind of mentioned it like the community aspect of it. You know, whether it's like if if you have a product and you're sponsoring a company that or somebody that like supports the jiu-jitsu community. It's all kind of you're sharing with the community, whether you're training together, whether you're like sharing products together that are kind of cool. Um, I think I think it all comes back to that. And that's the main thing. Like, you know, when you're going in and being in in a gym when you're training together, it's about the community aspect. A lot of us, you know, I don't know about you, but myself, I'm not going to be a world champion and like I'm not there to, you know, I might win some regional stuff here and there, but like I'm not going to sit there and and win, you know, worlds. So it's like I'm doing it because I enjoy doing it. I love the community. I love to, you know, when I get to coach, I love to teach and, you know, get get better, you know, it's something super challenging. So I think there's a lot of aspects. I think it's it's almost like there's a desire for like things that you can hold and handle and like kind of physical products as opposed to like everything's so digital. I just I remember being a a kid, you know, buying a a tape, a cassette tape, you know, it's like you get excited about having this cassette tape or a CD. Speaker 1: I just bought a Blu-ray. Speaker 2: So there was there was a show that I wanted to watch and I was looking at where can I watch it, right? Because I've already got a couple streaming services that we use. I was like, what is it on the streaming service that I have? And it's not. It's on Apple. So it's on the Apple streaming service or I've got to pay an additional fee on like Prime. I was like, I don't want to do that. So I looked it up and on Walmart sells a Blu-ray of it for like 14, 15 bucks. So I was like, I can either pay for this $15 streaming fee or I can buy it. I've got the we've got a Blu-ray player. I was like, I'm buying the I've bought the Blu-ray. So I was like, I mean, I was like, I get to actually own this. I'm kind of tickled by it. I'm like, I actually get to own it and we're going to put it in and watch it. And I'm going to watch that that that video. I'm not going to scroll and flip and be like, what am I watching today? I'm like, I'm watching that. That's it. Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah. I love the intentionality of it back in the day and just like you yeah, it was it was nice. I miss having my I don't miss the space it took up and that's why I finally let it go. But I mean, I had a wall of just CDs and my wall of VHS and eventually DVDs and I do kind of miss that. And and now it it does frustrate me frustrate me too sometimes. Like I'll buy all these movies even on through Apple or whatever I'm using. I go, man, one of these days, like if they decide sometimes they lose the rights to something and it just disappears. And you're like, I bought it. It was in my collection. What the hell happened? And so it's you know, and I go, yeah, someday it may not what happens if I lose all my logins or something goes weird and just it's just gone. No longer. And I because I like having that library of like the media that I that I love, the things that I think are, you know, really great great art and whatnot. So, yeah, I kind of I kind of miss the days and the cool covers and stuff. Yeah. Speaker 2: We're so old. Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. We're so old. Well, but we're not though because you see there's even like younger people who have grown up before us who they then sort of have this longing for the things that we had because we get, you know, it's like this thing we we we we have technological advancement, but we never ask if it's better for us, right? So like you said, like, you know, we we have this ability of instant communication. Is it better for us to have that? Um, we have this ability to have convenience where we can watch any movie we want to watch like instantly. But then you spend three hours scrolling to watch the movie and you never even get to watch it. Is it better for us? And I think that's the thing we never really ask enough of is sure, this is advancement, but is it better? And I don't and I have my thoughts and I'm like again, maybe it's just because I'm a little bit old, but I don't necessarily think it's better. And I mean, even with AI, you know, let's call it language learning models, you know, it's not really intelligent. But, um, we we we dub it AI. It's like, I I absolutely like loathe all the people like, oh, it's thinking for itself. It's not thinking for itself. It's it's it's basically a giant thing taking data and has an algorithm. That's what it is. Um, but with that stuff, you have all these weird things happening now where like you were saying like, there was one video I saw where like this guy's talking and he's like, hey, put your hands in front of your face for me. He's like the three fingers. Yeah, and he's like, he wouldn't do it because he's like, I I don't know the thing, but I guess it changed his face or something. And he would screw up. Or you see all these fake channels on YouTube now and, you know, online and all this like nameless, faceless channels where they have like where they'll now they have an avatar or hell, I saw the other day. It was, um, it was a bar in New York where you could go on a date and you basically get there and you have an AI chatbot at your table. So you get to have this little screen and you can talk to it and type or you can do a FaceTime type call with this AI chatbot. I'm like, that's weird. That's so strange to me. Like you said, you're losing the ability to talk to each other because and that article, this one girl was saying, yeah, I just sometimes feel very like awkward talking to people in public. I'm like, oh, you have you have a mental disorder. Like that's like you have like some sort of like social phobia, uh, effect you need to work over that to be a well-adjusted person. Like, you know, to be able to function. You don't have to become that. Like you don't have to. Like you can literally just like, oh, I don't like talking to people. So I'm just going to, you know, text or not, you know, have conversations with people in public kind of thing. And it's kind of a wild. Speaker 1: I know. It is a wild thing to think about because that that's the that's part of human nature is like, you know, interacting with people. Yeah. I mean, I I've watched it happen even even with my daughter who's 12 now. I mean, you know, where we grew up in my my old small town, like she used to be very, very like outgoing and like she was like a every restaurant we'd be eating at, she'd be like the greeter. People she didn't know coming in. She's like, hi, you know, and it was great. It was so cute. And then and she was very, yeah, had no problems talking to people, looking them in the eye and just even though I restrict her device use pretty pretty decently, it it almost doesn't matter. And just all what all the kids are into. They I mean, they don't really like to meet up and and play anymore. And if I didn't have her in jiu-jitsu, I don't think she would see other kids that much outside of school. And and in school, they're just talking about computer games and stuff anyway. And and, you know, there's a certain level of that. It's like, okay, whatever. We all kind of did that a little bit. But yeah, but it's but it's weird how they they've lost they are definitely losing the ability to to look people in the eye and talk to people. I've just noticed that with her where it's like now she's it's it's beyond shy. It's more like a like they've lost that ability. They're losing that skill to just to to, you know, deal with that. It makes them very, very nervous and and gives them anxiety just to do any of that. And, you know, it was it was tough for me when I was a kid too. I didn't do it enough, but but I was capable, you know, and and it was still yeah, we still had to talk to people and see them in person. So, yeah, I don't know. It feeds into all of our already, you know, easily, you know, bad habits that we could all get into. I mean, I I can fall into that very easily too. It's like, oh, great. I'll just text. I don't want to talk to anybody, whatever. And it's so it yeah, almost need to force yourself away from it because it can be addictive. And then you get into AI and you've got this safe fan that will just tell you what you want to hear all day long. Great idea. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Like I I tried talking I I talked to Grock a little bit, you know, and like as like, you know, and it'll, you know, especially when they have the avatar one where it was like a cute girl and she'd talk to you. And I was like, this is scary dangerous. If I would have had this when I was a young kid, I wouldn't have cared about dating. I'm like, whatever. She's perfect. Like always says the right thing. She's totally interesting. Loves me to death, you know, very comforting and like this is, ooh, like they stick that into a robot or something. There you go. Dangerous times. And someone's going to get really rich over that. It's like Blade Runner. Like, you know, like. Speaker 2: Completely. Speaker 1: Get you like one of the, uh, one of the replicants. Get your replicant. Yeah. Get your replicant joybot, you know, like boom, you're you're you're sold, man. Like that's it. It's definitely coming. Well, I mean, of course, it's coming, right? I mean, like if you're going to you're making something like war, sex, whatever, like I mean, that's Bank for your buck. I mean, those those they all always goes there in some ways, right? Yeah. Always. Yeah. It's been a leading edge, I guess. Yeah. D-evolution, maybe. Devo was right. Well, it's like we act out the same things, right? Like I remember there was a guy that was talking about one of the first like online like role-playing games, like one of the first ones that blew up. And, uh, called Ultima Online. And I was listening to this interview because I played the game when I was a teenager. And he was saying that basically like they they they opened this up. They had far more people than they expected. And within like 20 minutes of the game starting, there was a dude who basically had like him and a couple of female characters that were probably dudes, um, that were like at this house and like basically he was running a brothel. You know, like and and like they they would go to the house and they would have, you know, they would have a cybersex, right? Where they would talk about or whatever and do the whole thing. But like like the game just started and that's where it immediately went to and then, you know, that's it. I mean. Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, you have younger people playing. I mean, I guess older people too, I guess. But if it's like a bunch of teenagers playing this thing. Speaker 1: It wasn't just teenagers. That's gets scary. Yeah. Some weird old people in there, man. Yeah. D&D nerds, we were all weird enough meeting up in person to get online. It's even worse. There's no. Speaker 2: D&D's back, man. People love D&D. My son's into it. He's, uh, he's 10 and like, he had like a sleep like a sleepover for the first time. They wanted to do like a D&D thing. And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. So I actually got on on chat GBT and like learned how to run like a campaign. And I was like, give me a campaign. What should I do? And stuff. Yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah. I still I think it kept my basic arithmetic really sharp. I to this day, I think I have a better better basic arithmetic than my wife who went to MIT. So, but I I think it's all from playing D&D in person on paper with dice. But, uh. Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, Chris, I'm curious, man. What's what's a a lesson maybe that you've learned? It could be good, bad through running your business, through running Datsusara and like kind of what's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 2: What's Speaker 1: What's Speaker 1: Um, I mean, there's a few things. I think anytime that I've tried to it's hard because when you get you can get a bit perfectionistic and when I'm trying to build a high quality thing, it's really easy to go, no, no, no, let's not do that yet. It's not ready. It's not ready. It's not ready. And you have to at some point go, okay, it's it's functional. Let's get it out there. And and that's good. But there have definitely been a lot of times too where I get manufacturers and they're like, oh, yeah, like let's go. Let's go. It's it's going and I go, okay, I think you you guys have got that, right? We're going to make that change. And okay, yeah, sure. And then, you know, something gets shipped and, oh, whoops, they didn't stitch that thing properly or they didn't follow this direction. Um, that's that's definitely been a problem, um, a few times. I think I don't know. You know, it's tough. I think the other thing is is is it's hard to I don't I'm not one of those super ultra disciplined people. So, but I also don't like taking I don't like doing things anybody else's way. So, it can be really hard sometimes to run your own company when no one can fire you. And, um, you know, and it's kind of a thing of passion where I I do better when I'm I'm in that moment. I'm like, okay, I get in the right mood and I'm obsessed and I'm doing everything great. And then, but it'll fade away. And that that can be a problem. So, I'm trying to learn how to just show up, do the work no matter what, keep an eye on things and and just how to draw that out as opposed to waiting for it to come along because it's very easy, especially because I mean, in part because I designed it this way that the company will run itself to some extent. Like as long as the products are good well made. I've got a fulfillment warehouse. Just need to do a little bit of customer service each day. And it will kind of chug along. So, it's very easy to just go, oh, I figured it out. It's the four-hour work week. Cool. And like screw off, you know, and it's and I get I get into other things because I I go and obsess on jiu-jitsu or golf or whatever. And I forget that like, okay, you need to really you still got to stay on top of this, you know, and find a way even if it sucks and you're stuck at the computer because I get frustrated sometimes that I'm like, oh, great. I made this job for myself that I love and I'm helping people. But most of what I do when I sit down to actually do work, I'm stuck at the computer again. And I hate that because that's that's the last thing I want to be doing. I'm like, I don't I don't want to be sitting here crouched over this thing and ruining my eyesight and getting, you know, just it's not where I want to be. But, um, but yeah, so I don't know. I'm that I'm still learning. But it's not it's hard. Yeah, I haven't been any like poignant specific lessons of like, well, that was a screw up, you know, other than like I said, yeah, maybe maybe pushing a product along too quickly. I'm very careful about that now. Um, and I did, oh, you know, in the very beginning too, I did when we first made a backpack, I I copied too much of somebody else's backpack design. And there's no laws against it. But and it happens all the time. But I just didn't I didn't have a technical bag designer. They were very hard to find. And I remember going, you know what? I really like this backpack. I want all these same features, but we're going to make it out of hemp. And we changed a couple of things. But I still felt crappy about that because I remember just people looking at it and going, oh, it looks like the 5.11 bag. And I'm like, well, it kind of is. But it's just so there that one that one bothered me. I felt like that was that was something I wouldn't want to repeat necessarily. But that's, uh, I don't know. It's hard. Sometimes you're trying to reinvent something that's what are you going to do? If you're making a pair of jeans or something, they got five pockets. Like what, you know, so it's yeah. There's that. Yeah. When it's all it's like kind of like, um, martial arts, right? We take the technique from the person we learned it from and then we take it, we mess with it. And we eventually make it our own. But in the beginning, it's complete mimicry. We just steal it. You know, like we're we're we're just stealing stealing the thing. There's a great book by, uh, it's relatively short by, I can't remember the guy's name. Uh, Austin Kleon, I think it is. And it's like real artists steal, you know. Um, and, uh, you know, basically just talks he goes through the line. And if you go through it, like everybody's just stealing or remixing. Like I didn't think about this one, uh, until the other day. Like Lion King, like the Disney was trying to make a new original thing. And so they because they were just doing like fairy tales remade. And they were wanting original IP. And so they came up with the Lion King idea. And it's basically Hamlet with lions, right? I mean, that's what it is, right? It's it's it's guy uncle kills king. Son comes back for revenge, kill, you know, I mean, it's that's what it is. It's Hamlet with lions. Um, and again, if you guys are interested in my master's vault, you can check my website out and, you know, do that whole thing or join my email list and I'll tell you about it. But otherwise, um, that's the idea for today. Those are the two quotes for you guys to take away with very actionable ideas towards jiu-jitsu and everything else. And, uh, that's that. I'm done speaking. Appreciate y'all. Talk to you next week.