How YOU Can Clean Up Jiu-Jitsu

Speaker 1: Hey everybody, welcome back to Fighting Matters. I am Steve Quan from BJJ Mental Models. I am here with the old bastard, Mike Mahappy from Old Bastard BJJ and Magic BJJ, where he is definitely not the owner. How's it going, Mike? Good. I am enjoying definitely not owning a school. Speaker 2: Absolutely. Speaker 1: But I know someone who is enjoying owning a school, that would be Jesse Walker from Rough Hands BJJ. How's it going, Jesse? Speaker 3: That's me. Oh, I'm running a school here in Louisville, Kentucky, fiddling while Rome burns. Speaker 1: Well, I mean, there's so much that we could talk about today. I mean, a lot as is always the case, a lot is happening on the news. Most of it not directly martial arts related, but again, we have once again in the Jiu-Jitsu community had an issue with a sexual abuser. This time, I believe it's pronounced Melky Galvao. I again, like I was telling you guys offline, I have been tied up with work, so I have not had time to familiarize myself with the full details of what what happened. But it's again, this is a pattern. Anyone who has trained this long enough in the martial arts has seen that people continue to abuse their positions of power and their positions of authority to do bad things to their students. And when we have conversations like this on the podcast, sometimes people think, well, what can what can I as just a regular person actually do to help this problem? How can I move the needle to make the sport better and clean things up? And we were thinking it might be fun to have a chat today about how to do that, what individuals can do to make Jiu-Jitsu better or gym owners, but I think especially individuals. We often look at the the stewardship of the sport as being the responsibility of a gym owner, but really everyone who trains has the ability to make a difference and make things better. And I would love to maybe run through some of that today. Mike, maybe I'll pass it over to you first. You can open this one up. What are your thoughts? Speaker 2: As a definitely not a school owner. Speaker 1: Right, definitely not a school owner. Speaker 2: Despite the joke going around, I don't own a school. And I I feel that it's important to talk about taking ownership of the Jiu-Jitsu culture when you don't own a school. And, you know, yes, I recognize that I'm a black belt and uh I I do coach and um what does Steve call me recently? Some sort of living brand. Speaker 1: I believe I called you a mascot. Speaker 2: Right, exactly. But, you know, before all that, and I still am just like a regular dude, right? I'm just some dude in his fifties who likes to pajama wrestle. And I still feel that the culture, like maintaining a positive culture in Jiu-Jitsu falls on my shoulders, just like it falls on anybody else's. And I think if we start to relegate maintaining a positive culture only to the the leaders, whether they're school owners or big names in the sport, uh then we're really missing out. And uh you know, it's on all of us to make sure that Jiu-Jitsu remains an inclusive space, a space where people can authentically be themselves and still struggle together, right? Um that's my take on it. It doesn't just fall on people like Jesse who own schools or, you know, big name podcasters like that Steve Quan guy. It's it's all of us, right? Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I remember being a a junior in Jiu-Jitsu and feeling like I couldn't really speak up or say anything or do anything because who am I as a a white belt or even a blue belt to tell the owner of my gym how to do things. But there does come a time when you see behavior that you just really can't stand for and you have to make a decision one way or the other. I obviously the most sensible immediate thing that anyone can do is vote with their wallet, vote with their dollars. If you don't like the conduct that you're seeing at your gym, leave. Um that is definitely underrepresented as a way to make a difference in the sport. I am always amazed at people who will rally around or protect an embattled coach who has been accused of really terrible things. I mean, it's really at that point, I really question someone who when their coach is facing that many accusations of misconduct, they decide to stay there. Because that does I I mean, I'm sorry, that does reflect on you if you choose to stay there. If you get your black belt knowingly from a guy who has all of these accusations against him, all of that reputation does leave a stain on you as well because you chose to be a part of that. I personally couldn't hang around someone who, you know, who as an instructor has all sorts of recommend of um all sorts of accusations of misconduct against them, whether it would be, you know, like violence or sexual abuse. It just I think it's unbecoming to the martial art. I think it's unethical and I I think everyone should leave when that happens, as we saw with Andre Galvao. A lot of people left the gym after the accusations against him, and I think that that's the right thing to do. But it can also be hard sometimes, Mike, because I mean, there's always people who will push back and try to try to look down upon those who take an activist stance. I mean, we all know this having done this podcast, right? There will always be people who will push back on however they want to call it, political correctness, wokeness, being a social justice warrior. There's always new labels for this shit. But there's a cohort of people who get upset when other people try to improve things, is ultimately what it comes down to. I I've never understood that mindset. If someone is trying to make something better, you should celebrate that. There I I don't think there's any any merit to sitting on the sidelines and critiquing people who are trying to improve the world while you're doing nothing and you're just making it worse. But there will be people who do that, right? If you if you stand up to an instructor or you make a public statement, you will get push back. And Mike, what are your thoughts on that? Because I mean, we've all had push back doing content like this. What would you say to someone who's maybe not not as accomplished and famous as you, sir, um but is maybe just starting out in Jiu-Jitsu and wants to push back or take a stand? Speaker 2: I mean, I think you have to ask yourself, who do you want to be, right? Like, who how do you want to perceive yourself and how do you want to be perceived? Um Jiu-Jitsu people, Jiu-Jitsu coaches, gym owners, uh big names in the sport, we're all just human beings, right? We put our ghee pants on one leg at a time. So, unless you're Jesse, who does a flying reverse triple Lindy. Speaker 1: He does a box jump into his pants every morning, right out of bed. Speaker 3: You know, I think it's terribly, um, it makes me very sad that the triple Lindy joke probably didn't land with a good majority of the people listening. Speaker 2: It shows our age. Definitely shows our age. But I think it comes down to who who do you want to be, right? Do you want to be somebody who uh explicitly or in an implied manner condones bad behavior in a sport or in your gym, or do you want to be somebody who uh takes a stand and uh can help other people out in your gym. So, if you're afraid to speak up, if you have a conscience, um if there's bad things going on in your gym, uh I think you have to think about who do you want to be as a person? How do you want to be seen? And it's scary to speak out, right? Um I mean, if we're talking about uh helping the culture of Jiu-Jitsu by speaking out about negative and inappropriate things going on around us, I mean, that's definitely scary. Uh I would recommend you find people to back you up, right? I mean, Jesus, contact us. I mean, I am I've been contacted by people across the ocean. Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Mike, on that point, so let's make this real because I know at least you and I have had a conversation with somebody in the last few weeks, who is dealing with a matter not unlike what we're talking about. Um and I want to make sure that I'm not talking out of both sides of my mouth and I will state here the same thing I stated uh with the individual that we talked to. And the situation was, they're like a couple weeks away from getting their black belt. And there's stuff coming out about the school and, you know, I don't necessarily know all the details. Um he was kind of at a loss as to what to do. Do I leave now and go to somewhere else and have to start my brown belt over and, you know, uh or do I just hang on for a couple more weeks and get my black belt and then tell them peace out and leave then. Um and it's a problem. I mean, that's I I understand the the tension there. Uh I I personally told the person they should have their hard work and their time in recognized and go get that belt. Um and then fucking leave right after. Um and I don't think there was any question about whether or not they were going to stay. I think it was a question of do I stay or do I leave now and kind of hurt myself or do I leave in a couple of weeks, um where maybe now once I've got that that black strap on me, I maybe have a little bit more empowerment to, you know, affect change in my community. Speaker 2: Right, right, exactly. And I, you know, that's a personal choice and I wouldn't think poorly about upon anybody uh for choosing either way. I mean, this individual I know is going to bail, right? He's going to bail one way or the other. Um but, you know, in that situation, I feel like I agree with you, like get the belt and then skate. You know, because your black belt gives you a ton more freedom in a lot of ways, right? So you might as well just get it and then bail out of there. Um, you know, somebody who's in a different part of their Jiu-Jitsu journey, uh in one of the the lower belts, for me, like that's that's a no-brainer. You're a blue belt and your coach has bad allegations against them and you're uncomfortable with it, find another school. There's a bazillion of them out there, right? Um, you know, but I I stand by what I said, like if you if there's something going on at your school and you feel like you need to speak up about it, you feel like you need to be like a steward of a good culture and you're nervous about it, you've people who listen to this have got all our contact information. Like hit hit us up. That friend of ours, Jesse, hit us up. There's a friend of mine that I met online, lives across the ocean, uh who listened to Fighting Matters and hit me up about some stuff. Like we'll take we'll stand by you however we can. I mean, we put our money where our mouth is around here. So if you're at a loss, you know, hit one of us up on the show. We're happy to help you out. Speaker 3: Absolutely. Absolutely. Speaker 1: We we had talked before about the whole belt blackmail thing, which especially becomes a big deal when you're about to get your black belt, right? A lot of honestly, kind of shitty instructors will lord that over you and they will delay it and draw it out to try to get as many favors and as much help out of you as you can. And what you often find out in many of those situations is those people were never going to give you a black belt. They were just stringing you along. Black belt is a bit different from the other belts because you are sort of attaching yourself to that person forever, even if you move along, right? They they are forever a a stamp on your journey. It's funny. I remember my old coach told me one time, he said something to the effect of like, you know, Steve, you only get your blue belt once. It's like a marriage. And I said, well, that doesn't make sense. I know a lot of people who have gotten married multiple times. But you do only get but you do only get your blue belt once. And that's just blue belt. I mean, we're just joking around. Blue belt doesn't mean that much. But once you get to black belt, if you take Jiu-Jitsu seriously, your name is going to be attached to that person. Now, you can actually fix that. People don't realize that, but you can ask for to be re-belted. Um if you get a black belt from someone and you're not happy about it, you can go and ask someone else to re-promote you. That does happen sometimes. I have a friend of mine, um Micah Breakfield, who has two different black belts from two different people. Not that he had a a problem with either of the coach. There was no drama or anything that I know of, but it's that he was very serious about both training in the ghee and also training in no-ghee, and he wanted to have a separate belt for both. So he's got a a no-ghee belt from like 10th Planet no-ghee lineage, and he's got a ghee belt from the same lineage as me. So, like it can happen, right? If you get a belt and you're not happy with the name that's attached to it and you don't want to say that person's name, it is fixable. But it is a tough decision. I mean, if it were me, I personally would probably not want to accept a black belt from someone that I I knew had done heinous things. But there's degrees here, right? It's one thing if the person has committed a crime, right? Or done or done something completely unethical. That I think is a pretty hard line. I always want to draw the distinction between that kind of misconduct and just general disagreements or misbehavior, right? I mean, people who listen to this podcast, I'm going to guess are tend to be more on the progressive side, right? I don't think that you should reject a belt from your coach because he's a conservative, for example. I I think that shutting out people of who are further off onto the spectrum is not a great thing, right? It's like we we need to be able to coexist. But there there's a difference between like we disagree on stuff versus this person is an actual criminal. And I think we need to draw that distinction. We need to make sure not to throw everyone out when we start setting moral standards because it's really easy, especially in this day and age, to go too far and purity test everybody. So you've always got to ask yourself, like, is this a is this a civil disagreement or is this a a criminal matter that I simply cannot associate with you anymore? And, you know, we all have our own line as to where that is. For me, personally, though, I think it's important to at least coexist with people that you would otherwise disagree with, as long as they're not doing anything obviously morally wrong. Speaker 3: For sure. Have I ever told you all the story about how I got re-belted, re-promoted moments after my initial black belt promotion? Speaker 1: No, but now I want to hear about this. Speaker 3: So I'm in Rio, uh, you know, I just gotten my belt. Uh, there was a there was a, uh, another high-level black belt there that was uh, a huge rival with the guy that promoted me. They did not like each other. Um, so I got promoted and, you know, we got a couple pictures taken, everything, and he takes me off to the side. I don't even know this guy's name. So I can I can now tell you I don't even know who gave me my black belt. Um, he starts he he gets in front of me, he starts untying my belt. And I'm like, oh shit, I'm getting ready to get demoted. Like, he's getting ready to take this belt away from me because he doesn't like my coach. Like, holy shit. So he takes the belt, completely unties it, takes it all the way off. Then puts it all the way back on and reties it. Boom. He said, now you're a black belt. And then he walks away. And I'm like, I don't know what just happened. This is bananas. Did I just get demoted and then promoted back to black belt again? Um, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened. It's what it even saying it out loud, that's what it sounds like, right? Speaker 1: Right. Speaker 3: Um, wild story, especially because I I I don't even exactly know the guy's name. Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Speaker 3: Isn't that wild? Speaker 2: That's crazy. That But then then you uh found the Hotters and became combat base, right? And one of one of the things that always sticks out to me that Chris says is like your black belt means freedom, right? So you get that around your waist and you've got a way more leeway to go where you want, do what you want, open a school if you want. Like for for whatever reason, that piece of cloth means in this community uh a lot of freedom. And so like that's one of the that's the kind of coach that I want to I mean, we are under I am under Hotter too, but that's the kind of coach I want to be under and that's the coach kind of coach I want to be, right? Like if I get to the point where I'm promoting my own black belts, like, this is your thing. You you do it. You do what you you do you, like you don't owe me any allegiance, right? This this is just this is just a belt. This is your thing to go do. So, you know, if people are finding if they're that close to black belt and it's like, oh, do I wait another week and get it? Like, I I can totally see how people would just, you know what, I'm just going to get this and then skate. I'm gone. Get get what I need out of this and then disavow everybody. So, I see your point too, Steve. I feel lucky I've never had to be in that position, you know? I it's a tough one. Speaker 1: Well, I I think it's easier for folks like us to say, hey, you should just peace out because we never needed this to pay the bills or make a living. If I were a full-time Jiu-Jitsu coach and I'm well aware that by having that black belt, it's going to make it so much easier to open my own school or do whatever. I wouldn't begrudge anyone for taking that belt, even if I personally might not. I mean, but again, I think that people often over-romanticize lineage and belts. It it really doesn't matter. Um most people, a lot of people, you wouldn't even know who they got their black belt from or what the history of it is. There's a lot of folks I know who they they're advertised as being so and so's black belt, but if you actually unpack the lineage, that's not the person who originally promoted them, you know, 15 years ago, there was a falling out and they moved and switched over to someone else. And no one knows about this, right? That's all just your personal history. It's your resume and you can always update it, right? So I I do think it's important to clarify that who who you get your black belt from is not doesn't have to be as permanent as maybe my original instructor told me it was. You can you can always divorce and remarry if you want to. There are a lot of people who have multiple lineages on their black belts. And hey, you could be one of those cool people who's like, I got three black belts from three different people. Speaker 2: No one to school is Jesse. Speaker 3: So, let's let's go back and talk about the normies for a little bit because I I think there's probably more of them out there listening. Um, you know, as as we were talking about kind of ideas and topics that we would talk about tonight. Um, and, you know, how how we as individuals, whether we're students, school owners, podcasters, whatever, can add goodness and make this community better. You know, one of the things that struck me and I feel like that I'm I'm certainly having to say a lot as a coach. And I don't know whether it's because we're all just a little too neurodivergent. Um, I feel like as willing as we are to like sweat into each other's eyeballs, we are terrible at just having a fucking conversation. Um, and that it's so much I mean, and we we may be talking about little stuff. We're we're not necessarily talking about sexual assault here, but a lot of the stuff that gets people to quit, that gets people to leave, that gets people to move schools, whatever, to put fucking stupid Reddit posts up. So much of it could be solved with just having a human conversation with another person. Um, and just having the bravery, audacity, whatever we want to call it, just go talk to that person. And maybe it'll go south, but you all will be reading the situation completely wrong and you all will get it sorted out in a matter of moments, right? Um, Speaker 1: I am very serious about making my instructional on teaching Jiu-Jitsu people how to have basic foundational social skills. Because I I think that is a real issue. Speaker 3: Right, this is what I mean. Speaker 1: I I don't know if this person wants me to name their name, but I once talked to a a well-known black belt who is talking about how all of these people in Jiu-Jitsu, you know, they'll they'll preach on about lions and tigers and being mentally tough and doing hard things. And this guy was like, most of these people won't even pick up the phone and call their mom. And they're giving the rest of us life advice. Like they're, you know, yeah, sure, you can grapple effectively, but do you have the basic foundational social skills that you need to be a human being? And yeah, so many of the problems that we hear about in Jiu-Jitsu could have been solved by just put locking two people into a room and letting them have an actual discussion, right? And I think sometimes things like social media make it way more way more difficult to solve those problems than need be. And to as you said, Jesse, it's worth pointing out, when we talk about solving problems and improving the community, we're not always talking about criminal behavior. Sometimes it's just your your coach is doing something that's irking you and the other students and they don't know it, and you want to sit down and tell them about it, right? And I mean, that's everyone's responsibility to do. You as a white belt, if you're not getting good value or best instruction out of your coach, it should be totally fine to sit down and just say, hey, I just so you know, I think this could be better. All of the other students feel the same way. We're just not super thrilled about this, right? That that should be an okay conversation to have. Speaker 3: Well, and I mean, the a perfect example, uh, that happened to me in the last few months. I think I sent out a school-wide email after the Atos thing blew up, just like, hey guys, we we've had another incident in the community. Uh, I just want to take this opportunity to let you all know kind of where we are with everything and kind of the expectations and the open lines of communication. And within 48 hours, it wasn't a sexual assault thing, but it was like, hey, and they all came forward kind of at the same time. I don't know if they talked to each other, what happened. Some of them were in person, some of them sent me emails, some of them just sent me text messages. All of that was fine. But it's like, hey, we're we're having this issue with this person. They're they're rolling a little too rough. They've hurt a few of us or, you know, fucked up our necks a little bit. Um, they're not feeling like a great fit in the culture. And you know, my very first question is like, have you talked to this person at all? And of course, the answer across the board was like, no, we haven't. And part of the reason was they were a black belt, right? And, you know, some people don't feel uh empowered enough to do that. And I was like, well, cool, then I'll fucking deal with it, I guess. But in the future, like, have conversations. We we might this may not have gotten as far as it did. Um, but just letting people know that like, hey, we can have conversations. We can do this. Um, I think it's really important and, you know, those people came to me and we we sorted it out the best we could. Um, I, you know, it's been handled, but it required even though they didn't necessarily talk to that person, having to come into a room and talk to me about it, which I know was really fucking hard for some of them. Uh, otherwise it wouldn't have they they would have they may have left the school, you know, there there's kind of all kinds of things. Somebody could have really gotten hurt. Who knows? Um, but because we had human conversations, we we dodged it. Speaker 2: Right. And, you know, not even just having human conversations about problems, but I think, I mean, the reason people stay in Jiu-Jitsu, I mean, there's a lot of reasons people start. But I would hypothesize that one of the main reasons people stay is a social connection, right? And I feel you want to foster that in your school. Like you you don't want, you know, side conversations all the time and training not happening because we're all there for Jiu-Jitsu. But you want to feel connected with these people that you're doing this thing with. Like, you know, when when you roll with somebody, your safety's in their hands and vice versa, right? And if there's no Speaker 3: It's an incredibly intimate activity. Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. Not in a sexual way, but like physically intimate. I know. Yeah, I know. Uh just reminds me of some funny things that have happened recently. But uh uh we'll get into those offline. We don't want to talk about that. But uh yeah, like it's such an intimate activity with the potential to be dangerous that if you're not trusting the people you're on the mat with, there can be some huge problems, right? So, like one of the things that I I always do, and I would encourage anybody to do, uh I mean, I know it's easy for me as a black belt, as one of the coaches at the gym, but like I'm always like, new people are in the door, I'm greeting them. I'm introducing them to people. I'm making sure they know their way around the room, you know? That that guy teaching, that's Matt. He's our head coach and owner, you know? Uh his wife Amy is the co-owner, uh and another coach. Like, let me introduce you guys when, you know, when he's done teaching today. These are this is so and so. This is Zach. This is his corner over here, you know? Speaker 1: Damn, Zach's got his own corner? Speaker 2: He does. Zach's corner. Uh Speaker 1: That sounds like a martial arts podcast. Hey everybody, welcome to Zach's Corner. Speaker 2: That's the idea. Uh but, you know, like foster that kind of inclusiveness in your school. You don't have to be a black belt or a coach to do it. You can you can welcome new people. You can show them the ropes. You can make sure people know each other, right? I mean, how many times have you Speaker 3: Or you can warn them to go to another school if you know that you're at a shitty place. Speaker 2: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Speaker 3: Don't tell your coach. Well, I'm not brave enough to leave, but you should just go. Right. Speaker 2: It's a cult. Just so you know, I'm too deep in. I I can't get up, but maybe you can save yourself. I've already bought the branded ghee. I'm screwed. Speaker 3: Right. Oh my God. Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, Mike, you're the only one of us who I think has a a real job at this point. So maybe you can I I used to have a real job back in the day. Speaker 3: Wow. I I've also had real jobs in the past. Speaker 1: Yeah. Um but this comes up a lot in the world of real jobs. It's it's tremendously hard to get good feedback in a work environment and it's mostly because you don't get onto a lot of teams where people really have enough trust to speak openly about everything. Because I mean, if people feel like they're their jobs, their livelihoods are on the line, they're going to play their cards a little close to their vest. They're not going to say everything. I remember one time I was uh in an exit interview and they asked me why I why I was leaving this company. And I said, oh, no, no, you guys were amazing. Everything was great. Don't worry about it. I love working here. It's just opportunity of a lifetime came by. I had to take it. Don't worry about it. That's what I said. What I really wanted to say was, the guy that you've got working here is a fucking malignant narcissist. He's destroying your company culture. He's made it impossible to work here. Um he might be racist. Like there there's a lot of reasons I'm getting out the door. But I just don't trust you enough to tell you that, right? I'm just going to I'm not going to tell you that. I'm not going to let you put that on your checklist so that it's going to get back to him and poison my reputation. What if 20 years from now when this fucker's fired, I want to come back and work here again. There's by the time you get to the exit interview, like there's no benefit in me giving you real feedback, right? I've already made my decision to cut ties with you. If you really cared about what I think, you would have sought that feedback a long time ago before I wound up having to leave. And the same thing applies to Jiu-Jitsu gyms, right? It is especially because in gyms, we all wear this stupid belt. And I know how it is. As soon as you see someone with a black belt, people immediately get weird about it. Um and that can make it hard to get good feedback. But man, it is important to give your coach good feedback. And if something is is bad in the gym, it's super important to speak up. Just to send them a one-on-one note, ideally in person if you can do it or on the phone. Um I mean, you can do text if you want to, but you've got to couch it so much because you can't read tone through text message. So you have to really bend over backwards to make sure the person understands your tone and that you're you're there to help. And similarly, if you're the person receiving the feedback, you have to be really mindful of the fact that the way you respond dictates whether you will receive feedback in the future, right? When someone comes and gives you feedback you don't want to hear, it is so tempting to just get your back up and get defensive and argue with the person. And all you're doing if you do that is you're ensuring you will you will never get feedback again, right? Because no one wants to if they wanted to if they decided to be vulnerable and give you feedback, the last thing they wanted was a fight out of it. I've been teaching my kid about this about, you know, second order thinking when it comes to how you deal with people, right? If someone does if someone does you wrong or they they make a mistake, you have to really assess their intent. Like was their intent to hurt you? Probably not. It was probably an honest mistake. If you chew someone out and freak out on them over an honest mistake or a miscommunication, all you're doing is damaging that relationship and making it impossible to succeed with that person in the future. So, I mean, an example, you know, we can talk about our mutual friend Rob, right? Rob Bernaki, who is notoriously a pain in the ass, right? And I I say this with love, right? I mean, he's a cantankerous old Canadian bastard and he will be the first person to agree with this, right? He always he is the first like he will tell you whatever's on his mind. There's no filter with Rob. But he will also receive feedback. I've been in seminars where people like just straight up told him, I don't like this. And Rob's like, I'm so glad that you brought that up. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate your feedback. And I thought, that surprised me because I thought you were going to murder that person, but nope, you actually you accepted the feedback. Even if you don't agree with it, you have to show appreciation for the fact that the feedback came in. That doesn't mean you have to agree with it. It doesn't mean you have to even do anything about it. But you have to demonstrate to the people in the room that you're you're the kind of person who wants that feedback, otherwise you'll never get it again. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 2: Definitely. Speaker 1: And you know, one of my struggles, um, I don't necessarily get defensive. Um, and I only share this in hopes that like there's other people like, hey, yeah, that's my issue too. I'm pretty conflict averse, right? So when I start hearing some feedback about somebody else or somebody's done this, I'm immediately like, fuck, I've got to have a hard conversation now and that sucks because I don't like fucking having them. Um, and it would be real easy for me to just dismiss it so I didn't have to go do the hard thing myself. But, you know, when I hang that sign up in front of the building, uh, that means that I've got to have the hard conversations. Um, but that is certainly that that's usually where I hit the like the resistance in myself when I'm getting that feedback. It's like, damn, I'm going to probably have to have a hard conversation with somebody. Speaker 2: Fair. Speaker 1: It's a skill. I hate having hard conversations, but if you don't do it, it cause it winds up causing so many more problems than if you just ripped off the band-aid and had that chat. Speaker 2: Without a doubt. Yeah. Yeah, without a doubt. I have to do it in my real job on a somewhat regular basis, but it doesn't mean I like it. Speaker 1: Well, I was actually going to ask, Mike, you you are by far the most experienced person to have that kind of conversation on this call, probably the most experienced person I know when it comes to having these kinds of conversations. What do you suggest as like a best practice if someone who's, you know, at a gym and they see something they don't like and they want to broach it, they want to have that hard conversation. What how do you suggest they handle that based on your experience doing this? Speaker 2: I mean, I think it depends on whether you're having that hard conversation. So let me couch this a couple different ways. If you're needing support from your coach and it's a hard conversation you're going to have with your coach about something that they're doing or something going on at the school that's not like inherently dangerous or illegal or abhorrent, right? Um my recommendation would be a couple different things. Uh use I statements, right? This is going to sound very social worky because it is. Uh but, you know, um I've no let me think. Let me just make up some examples at the top of my head. Uh when you teach something in this particular way, uh and you use that language, I feel X, Y or Z, right? You know, let's say the coach is uh I don't know. I'm trying to come up with a uh an example that's not offensive. But like if a coach is doing something that that you feel needs improvement, right? Or makes you feel a certain way or you're thinking the class isn't responding to it, you know, name the behavior, use an I statement, so take ownership of how it makes you feel and uh what you think about it, and then maybe offer a suggestion, right? But we're uh focusing on the behavior in that conversation and not the person's character or intent, right? Um, you know, uh Jesse, when you wrist locked me really hard, uh I felt scared because I thought I wasn't going to be able to play guitar again, uh because my wrist hurt. So, I'd appreciate it if you went slower with those wrist locks, right? I'm not saying Jesse's an asshole. I'm not saying Jesse meant to wrist lock me really hard. But I'm giving him some feedback. Speaker 1: I am and I did. I know I know that. I know exactly. This is a true story. Speaker 2: Right. Right. Uh but, you know, um I didn't like call out Jesse for being a jerk. I didn't assume his intent. I just said, this is the thing that happened. This is how I feel about it. This is the consequence, you know, possible consequence of what happened and gave some suggestions as to what could be done different, right? That's like an easy formula to kind of take the personal attacks out of it, right? I think that can become different if we're talking about uh you have to have a hard conversation with somebody at the gym about something malicious that they're doing. At that point, fuck them. Like if somebody's hurting people at the gym, if somebody's acting like a predator, if somebody's doing creepy stuff, like that behavior needs to be called out and stopped. Speaker 1: That's the easiest for me to deal with. I that's boom. Speaker 2: Yeah. But, you know, like we've had we've had students who have gone too hard before at at Magic. You know, and granted, yes, I am a black belt and I'm a coach and there's all that like those layers of privilege or whatever that, you know, uh but I've had to have those conversations with people before too and that's how I do it. Like I'm taking the the uh uh personal attacks out of it. It's not about how you're doing something wrong or you're being a jerk. Like, look, when you do this, X happens and so we need to do something differently. Does that make sense? Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: And the other thing too is you can always clarify your intent because it might not always be clear, right? If you're giving someone feedback, especially if it's someone that you've got a relationship with, it doesn't hurt to say, you know, this is feedback I'm just telling you this because I care, right? And I I I'm trying I want to be helpful. Like I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm not trying to be critical, but just I really think this is the best idea going forward. This this is why I'm telling you. Just so they don't think that this is an attempt to be combative or difficult. Sometimes people who are not experienced with receiving criticism will get immediately defensive if they receive it. And you can often disarm them by sharing and disclosing your intent for bringing it up and just saying, hey, like I I'm only telling you this because I really care, right? And I think that you your gym is awesome and it could be even more awesome and this is just something I've noticed, so that's why I'm bringing it up. Whereas if you just drop criticism on someone stone cold without any context around that, uh a less experienced mentor coach person might get defensive about that and might not receive it as it was intended. Speaker 2: Right. Exactly. You know, and we all get we're humans. We get defensive when we get feedback. Like it's a a natural thing. Um, you know, it's also on us to try to not get defensive when we get feedback. And some people are going to be defensive and their guard's going to go up no matter what you say. Um, but again, focusing on the behavior and I statements about how you feel, you know, I feel this way, I I think this, I feel and not like projecting that on the other person can go a long way toward kind of disarming that defensiveness. Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's great advice. Speaker 1: I think you bring up a great point too about how these problems can be harder sometimes for minor infractions. If it's just a a good faith mistake someone made, like they were rolling too hard and they didn't realize it. That can often be harder to deal with because the person didn't mean any harm. When the person means harm, I mean, it it's a bigger problem, but it's also often the solution is easier. I just did a series of conversations with Elliot Marshall from Easton about this, and we were talking about how to guard your culture. And one of the questions I asked him is, you know, what do you do in like a if someone were to show up in your gym and they were like a neo-Nazi or something, how do you handle that? And he was like, that's the easiest. Just tell them to get the fuck out of my gym, right? Because there's no there's no gray line there. It's tremendously obvious what you need to do. It's much harder when it's a person who's training in good faith, but they just lack the experience to be the best partner that they could. Speaker 2: Yeah, no, agreed. I mean, we've we've kicked people out of Magic before for doing crappy stuff and that's super simple. Oh, this happened, they're gone. You know, but it's the the little stuff that that people aren't intending to do any harm, but might be doing some harm. It's hardest to talk about for sure. Speaker 1: Let's talk about the whole speaking up publicly thing, right? And I mean, there's obviously a time and a place for this where instead of taking the feedback privately to the coach, you make a public statement. What do you guys feel about that? Obviously, there's a time and a place where you need to say something publicly. But how do you handle that? Like when would you go to the coach with a one-on-one concern and when would you just say like, screw this, we're going to Google, we're going to Reddit to talk about it there. Speaker 3: Oof. Speaker 1: Bit of a landmine question, but Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 1: But I I think it's worth discussing because sometimes people will jump right to that like, I'm going to make a public statement step. And you know, depending on the infraction, sometimes that's merited, but sometimes it's not. I mean, there's there's often times when I see people making a public statement about some gym they had a bad interaction with. And then you read the interaction and it's like, man, this is this was not that big a deal, you know? It's it's one thing if a crime was committed, but if you just had like a a bad or mediocre gym experience, you might be turning the dial up too high if you just go and try to like make a public statement to make a big thing out of this. Speaker 2: I mean, I think you should always go to the coach first, the coach or the owners, right? Um, you know, unless they're the ones doing the horrible things. Uh, you know, I mean, I wouldn't go make a public statement about a gym if I found that, you know, if I think they rolled too hard all the time or, you know, maybe they're a bunch of 22-year-old competitors. That's just not my vibe, right? But that doesn't mean they're bad people, you know? Uh, I think you should always try to go to the coach first, unless obviously they're the ones doing the horrible things, right? And then and then if if you find out that that those shitty things are happening and are pervasive because the whole culture is bad, maybe at that point, you know, but uh that is a definite definitely tough question. What do you what do you think, Mr. Walker? Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm I'm sitting here kind of playing through some scenarios. You know, part of me was wanting to say something like, you know, if it's and I I think it was similar to what you were saying that if it was something about something egregious something it done, somebody had done in the school that wasn't necessarily part of the leadership or directly related to the coach. I and, you know, this is as a business owner, of course, but I feel like it is the right thing to do to bring that to them first. And and let them see how they will deal with it. But like you said, if it's an infraction that was the coach, right? And there's some indication of just rot from the center. Uh, maybe it's appropriate to to skip that step. But then I started thinking about I guess along the lines of what Stephen said, there's some people some people's scale of seriousness, right? I would be pretty pissed if someone went on uh Facebook group in Louisville and talked about how I'm a uh thief if I accidentally forgot because it does happen occasionally. If I forgot to uh cancel their membership when they asked or I forgot to freeze their account, right? Um, if they didn't just message me and be like, hey, I just noticed I got charged. I thought we dealt with that and I'd be like, oh yeah, I'm sorry, I'm an idiot. I've whatever, forgot to hit the button. I'll take care of that right now for you. If they skipped that step and went straight to Facebook, I'd be pretty pissed. Um, because it, you know, it was it was an honest mistake. But there are certainly some people out there as Steve mentioned that will go straight to they'll just go to full escalation over the the slightest infraction. So I think it's I think it's tough to provide kind of hard lines of guidance there. Speaker 1: It's funny that you call it the spectrum of seriousness because I just heard this come up in the uh context of my kid. I heard someone describe this as the spectrum of audacity. Which is like, you know how sometimes kids they just don't have a filter. Like if they just want something, they'll just ask for it. There have been times when I've gone into a store with my kid and she's just like asked the shopkeeper, can I just have that? And often she gets it, you know, and I'm trying to pay them. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. And they'll say, no, whatever, it's a kid, we'll give it to them. I'm like, Jesus, I could never get away with this. I could never just walk up to someone and be like, I want that thing you have. Can I have it? Speaker 3: Can I have it now, please? Speaker 1: Yeah. But, you know, most people grow to the point where they understand like, hey, this is a society. There's a give and take, right? If I give, you get. We have to have some sort of fair trade. Sometimes though, people do just go nuclear for no reason or for for an unfair reason. I mean, I've definitely seen that too where people will they'll escalate things because you know, they they had a maybe not even a terrible experience, but just things didn't go exactly the way they want. And they'll have kind of a public freak out about it to try to hurt your reputation. Anyone who's put content online or has a website has surely had this happen with like a Google reviewer or something at some point. I I mean, I think we all probably have. And it's tremendously frustrating because we know it's not fair. We know it's not reflective of the truth, but at the same time, what can you really do, right? If someone decides to just turn the dial right up and just immediately go on to Defcon 5 because they didn't get exactly what they want. Um and Jesse, I think that is that is a great point. Some people just have a miscalibrated spectrum of seriousness. I love that way that you phrased it. I've certainly seen this myself where people will sometimes, you know, something will happen and they will just immediately go nuclear over it. And my first thought is like, well, you are the the punishment that you are proposing is not remotely proportional to the crime here. Like some minor tiny social transgression has happened and you want to publicly ruin this person's reputation over it. Like we need to the problem is when you do that, it also weakens the case of everyone who wants to speak out because something truly awful did happen. If everyone has a, you know, has a terrible experience over a if everyone goes public and freaks out over something minor like an accidental billing error, it just floods the zone and next thing you know, the people who are really speaking out about real problems, they just get drowned out in the noise. So I I always think it's important again to to wear that um that badge of empathy and just ask, okay, if roles were reversed, is this proportionate to what happened to me? Or am I just completely going off the deep end here? Speaker 3: I saw an interesting example of that. I I can't even maybe it was on the Louisville subreddit or somebody had posted uh I think it was a Google review of a restaurant, a fairly new one, I think. And just absolutely hammered the shit out of this restaurant. And I guess the owner had reached out to this person and been like, look, like it takes more than just me to run this business. Sometimes the employees that we bring in here aren't top-notch and up to snuff and we do everything we can to address that. And this guy came back after this review and like got on Facebook or, you know, made this public apology of like, hey, I should have I should have thought about those things and I should have should have talked to this guy and uh I, you know, normally I've had a great experience here and my little explosion there was inappropriate. Uh so it was a it was a really cool kind of when that kind of explosion happens that's really probably unjustified, how that still kind of sorted itself out. Uh I don't know that I've ever seen that happen before in my life, which is what what made me think about it. Wow. Pretty cool. Speaker 2: That is super cool. Speaker 3: And, you know, probably the owner didn't explode on this guy. He's like, hey, look, I I saw the review. I'm really sorry you had a bad time. Uh hopefully I can help you understand what happened and how I'm going to address it in the future. And they came to an understanding and it was fine. Uh but it probably didn't need to get escalated to that point in the first place. Speaker 1: I think that also is an important consideration when we talk about how to make change, right? If if there's something in our community that we we see that we want to change, we have to remember the way that we present and conduct ourselves impacts how well that message will be received. Like if I sit down with Mike and I say, hey Mike, look, just that that fighting matter shirt you're wearing is just too tight, man. You got to go up a size, you know, it's just you look like a sausage in there. And I'm only telling you this because I love you, right? That's one thing. But if I go on the internet and like start a Reddit thread about how like Mike sucks and you know, you're you're immediately putting the person in a situation where they're getting obviously this is a very tortured example, but you're immediately putting the person on the defensive and now you've completely killed any possibility of reconciliation and actually fixing the problem. So it's like again, like I've been telling my kid, use second order thinking here. What do you actually want to get out of this? Do you want to just vent and freak out on someone and destroy their day? Or do you actually want to address the problem that you had and get it fixed forever? Because the problem is if you go and you have that public freak out, now two things have happened. You've destroyed that person's reputation, but you've also destroyed your own reputation because you're the guy who does the public freak outs. And everyone's going to remember that just as much, if not more, than the person that you criticized. Whereas on the other hand, if you try to work towards a solution rather than just blame and who's the bad guy here, you're more likely to find a solution that works for you and you're also more likely to bring people together, right? There's way too much of this Jiu-Jitsu community is fragmented and split up over weird petty drama that is unbelievable to me. And I I would love to see more people focus on trying to bring things back together. I mean, obviously, we're not talking about real crimes here. But just for minor transactions, like I don't like your ghee policy. Okay, that that should be fixable through just a one-on-one conversation before you go and you start attacking this person online. Speaker 2: Back to my shirt, you're lucky you even wear one for the show. Speaker 1: That is true. Speaker 2: You're just Speaker 1: You're just lucky. Speaker 2: Hey, I mean, don't do anything on my account. Speaker 1: But yeah, no, I I I agree, Steve. I think I think what the Jiu-Jitsu community I mean, there's great there's a ton of great people in the community, right? Like we just did a camp at Jesse's place a couple weeks ago and brought together some awesome human beings, old friends and new, people that I would never get a chance to hang out with and uh spend a long weekend with if it weren't for this camp. And you know, I'm sure there are people there that we would disagree on some things, right? But like overall, we're just there for a good time to enjoy each other's company, to learn some Jiu-Jitsu and have some fun. And I feel like we need more of that in the community and we need more empathy in the community, right? I think we just need more empathy as human beings in our society at least, currently in the US in general, right? I think if we can all approach things understanding, I mean, there's that saying that everybody's fighting a battle that you can't see, right? I think if we approach other people in that way, it's going to set the stage for just better relationships overall in my opinion. Speaker 3: Yeah, I also and I don't exactly know how to do this, but I also feel like we need to and I mean, I know that we all try um in our own ways, but we I feel like we really need to put a spotlight and when I say we, even the listeners, we need to put a spotlight on those good experiences and good opportunities and good communities, right? I'm getting ready to head down to uh Asheville in a couple of weeks. I'm teaching at another camp. I'm uh Camp Grapple Lacha with our our friends at uh Open Source Jiu-Jitsu. Speaker 1: The McMasters Jiu-Jitsu. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 1: They're my buddies. Speaker 3: Yeah, they're my buddies. And yeah, I'm going to be there. The Bendles will be there. Rich Sab's going to be there. It's it's it's going to be awesome. Uh our my friend Brad Wolfson, do you guys know Brad? Speaker 1: I do not know Brad. Speaker 3: Also just uh it's just a star-studded cast. And it is just such a wonderful community. And it it's same thing that you just said, Mike, like we're getting ready to go down there and see all these people that, you know, in a lot of ways they're very like-minded, but we're going down there to enjoy each other's company and enjoy Jiu-Jitsu and are we going to agree on every little thing? No, but that's not really the point. It's not really relevant. Um, it's just a really good experience. Um, and I I think we need to do everything we can to really spotlight those so that when people are looking for stuff like that, um, they know that there are places they can go to do that. Speaker 1: I love that. That's so well said. I mean, we unfortunately, we live in a world where the spotlight is understandably on the negative and man, there is no shortage of things to talk about there. But when you only talk about the negative, you sometimes forget that there's so much positive. And especially when within the Jiu-Jitsu community, I, you know, we talk a lot on this podcast about the dark side of the sport and the bad things that happen and politics and in in Jiu-Jitsu. But man, like in Jiu-Jitsu, 99% of the experiences you have are going to be great. There's a reason we all train the sport and there's a reason why it's growing so much and so many people do. The only reason we talk about all of the bad stuff is because we feel like it's our responsibility to do something about it. But the majority of people who train the sport are lovely. And that's all the more reason why we have to stand up to the bad stuff. So yeah, I think it the the more you that you emphasize the positive and talk about the good things that are happening, the more that you also give those people an opportunity, right? We don't want to just give attention to the bad guys. We should talk about the good folks who are doing good stuff and make sure that they get as much attention too. That kind of gross thing of the social media generation and and the world that we live in now is that attention is so valuable and even bad attention is valuable. And people will sometimes deliberately seek bad attention because it's better than no attention. I don't like that, man. I I Speaker 3: Did you say semen retention? What did you just say? Speaker 1: No, that's a different thing altogether. We we haven't even gotten into semen retention, Mike. Do we do we need to talk about this? There there is this there is this I I don't know how you would describe it, but there have been an unusual number of Jiu-Jitsu related semen retention posts recently. I don't get it. Um it's certainly not backed by any science that I am aware of, but anyway, let's let's focus on the positive side of things. Speaker 3: Do we even have any of that left at our age? Speaker 1: I think so, man. I just I I am that well, that's why all of these guys are blasting testosterone, I'm presuming. Although unfortunately, that'll shut down all of your production by the time you're about 30. Anyway, different different topic for another day. Um but yeah, you know, focusing on the positive. So yeah, I think the the Camp Grapple H guys, it sounds like what they're doing is pretty cool. I wish I could be down there. And hey, if you're one of the people who wanted to make camp in Kentucky and couldn't do it, this is going to be pretty close to that. So good opportunity if you want to head down to North Carolina. Speaker 3: Yeah, that's going to be awesome. Speaker 1: Yep. Jesse, before we tie this up, I want to let you attack this from the other perspective. We've talked so much here today about what regular grapplers can do to make things better and how they can provide feedback where it matters and speak up when it matters. I want to hear from the coach's perspective though. I mean, you and I have had a lot of conversations on BJJ Mental Models about this thing you call culture guardianship. And it might make sense to talk about this here. Is that's kind of related but from the other side of the coin. Speaker 3: Yeah. Um, so I I think maybe it is best understood in the context of uh, you know, we we are very much against the Matt Enforcer culture in Jiu-Jitsu. Most of you will will probably know what that means. Um, but we do absolutely want our people to feel uh ownership and empowerment to provide guardianship of the culture at the school, right? I cannot be and Shelby cannot be everywhere and see and hear everything all the time. Um, so we want to make sure that people feel uh justified and and okay in being a guardian and whatever that means. Sometimes that means modeling the correct behavior. Sometimes that means calling out like, hey, that's not what we do here. Um, you know, what I have found is as a school owner, allowing people to do that gets you so much more buy-in, right? We talk a lot about this it is ultimately kind of a service industry and that these are our customers. But this is also, you know, this is something you've talked a lot about on your show, like, this is a lot of people's third place, right? And allowing people to feel some ownership and and that this is their community and not just something that for me and Shelby, um, it is it is hugely powerful and it's been a really great thing at our school. Um, just from the standpoint of there's a lot of those little nagging issues that end up getting sorted out even before it bubbles up to me. Um, and usually in, you know, I can I say usually, all the times that I even am aware of have been uh perfectly appropriate and had great outcomes. So, if if school owners are trying to figure out kind of how to how to police this and how to better deal with it, you've got the resources there. You've got people invested in your school. You've got people that care about where they train. Um, let them know that it is okay for them to defend that place like it's their own. Um, because I think you will find that that does nothing but yield gold for your school. Speaker 1: Amazing. And actually, you and I shot a whole course on this. You know what? If anyone is hearing this and they're a gym owner or a coach and they want to hear Jesse go into way more details about culture guardianship, just shoot me an email at steve@bjjmentalmodels.com. I'll set you up with a copy of the course so you can check it out because Jesse had a lot of really good insights for gym owners and community leaders in the sport. Really an an an understudied area of Jiu-Jitsu, but super important as the sport goes bigger and bigger. And also as we continue to have to clean up some of the more gross aspects of the sport, right? I mean, again, another issue in this last month, another problem that has happened in the Jiu-Jitsu community and these problems don't go away on their own. As much as I hate to just beat the same drum over and over again, and as annoyed as I know some people get because they don't like social justice warriors, like it's it's important to speak up about this stuff because if you don't, you allow it to persist, right? I mean, culture is not what you preach, it's what you tolerate. And so if you are allowing behavior that is either bad or just undesirable, right? I mean, again, there's different spectrums. If you allow it, it will persist and it will grow and next thing you'll know, you'll show up one day and realize the culture isn't your culture anymore. It's been completely subsumed by all of the stuff that was never your intent. And and we've all seen that happen at gyms before. And most of the time it started where the person in charge just didn't want to rock the boat and they didn't want to have difficult conversations. But I hope that man, if there's one thing that we talked about today here that I hope resonates, is that difficult conversations are important. If you're going to talk about how Jiu-Jitsu is all about fighting hard battles and toughening yourself, well, part of that is social toughness as well and being willing to speak up in the face of things that need to change. Um, good way to close that off though. Any any last thoughts here, Mike? Anything you want to add? Speaker 2: I just want to reiterate, we said it earlier, if you need to have a tough conversation at your gym about a tough thing and need some support and feel like you don't have it where you are, feel free to hit us up. Hit me up at least. I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm pretty sure Speaker 1: I think speak for me for sure. All right. Speaker 2: Pretty sure everybody on this show will will be okay with you reaching out and hitting us up. You know, we've we've got your backs. We're not just talking heads on a screen here. Speaker 1: And it's probably worth just really hammering this point again though. There there is a line of conduct where you have to be ready to take things much more seriously, right? Like it's one thing if your instructor is demanding loyalty and charging for belt stripes or whatever, that's one thing. But if there's actual abuse and criminal behavior going on that's going unaddressed, you can't always use the same playbook because you have to feel safe at the same time, right? I mean, if if you are in an abusive culture and you feel like speaking up could result in further abuse to you, that is a much murkier situation. And again, I, you know, I'm not an expert in this necessarily, but sometimes having people to talk to can really just give you ideas or at least get you connected to people who can help. So, if you are in one of those situations and you don't know what to do, I always encourage people to reach out to us, right? You can find us easily on social media. So please do. We'd like to make new friends. Speaker 3: Yeah, and like Steve said, you know, I I actually started working on a social media post about this tonight. It's like, one of the most powerful things I think leaders in the sport can say is like, I I don't know the answer to that, but let's find out together. Let's figure it out. And that may be the answer if you reach out to some of us. Like, I I don't know what to tell you. I don't know what the next step is, but let's I'll help you figure it out. Speaker 1: Awesome. Great. Well, where can everybody find you guys? Jesse, if someone is in Louisville, Kentucky and they're thinking, man, I want to train with this guy. His gym sounds awesome. His culture sounds amazing. Where can people find Rough Hands BJJ? Speaker 3: Yeah, so we're in Louisville, Kentucky. Uh, if you want to come train with us, we we'd love to have you. We get tons of visitors. Uh, we we'd love you guys. Uh, you can also find us on on the Intertubes. Uh, roughhandsbjj.com and roughhandsbjj on just about all of the socials. Uh, so feel free to reach out uh on any of that stuff. Always happy to chat. Speaker 1: Nice. Mike, how about you? Speaker 2: We can find me at Old Bastard BJJ on Instagram. And I train at Magic BJJ in Lansing, Michigan, which I do not own, but it's owned by my lovely friend, Matt and Amy Linsmeyer. And we are in Lansing, Michigan, right by Michigan State University. We get a ton of visitors. Uh, we'd love to have visitors, so please just just drop in. You're more than welcome. Speaker 1: And hey, Matt and Amy, if you're listening to this, I am calling you out. I want you on a podcast. Get on it. We can talk about anything. We we can talk about Magic the Gathering for a whole hour if you want. And I I will find some way to Speaker 3: We'll all get in on that for sure. Speaker 1: I'll find some tortured way to tie it back to Jiu-Jitsu. Like don't worry about that. But I I just want to get you guys on a podcast. It'll be fun. Speaker 2: Get Matt to make fun of me for an hour. That would be perfect. He would do that. Speaker 1: I don't need him to do that. That's my job. I I don't need him to do that. I don't I'm not trying to work myself out of a job here. Amazing, guys. Well, I'll put links in the show notes. I'm at BJJ Mental Models and of course, we are fighting matters. Easy to find. Again, links to everything in the show notes. Thank you so much everyone for listening. I hope this is useful. A tricky chat on a difficult conversation, but tremendously important. And I hope you guys found so as well. Thanks for listening everybody and we'll talk to you next time. See you then. Speaker 3: We'll see you next time.