439 - The Real Catch Wrestling and What it Can Teach Jiu-Jitsu, with Val 'The Crippler' Childs

Hey there, I'm Stephan Kesting and this is the Scrambleous Life podcast. So today, I'm absolutely delighted to talk to Val Child about catch wrestling. And catch wrestling, I think, is this weird or was this weird red-headed stepchild of grappling. I I think early in the BJJ craze in the in the mid-90s, when it was jiu-jitsu, jiu-jitsu, jiu-jitsu, there were some people who were saying, hey, catch wrestling is just as legitimate. The trouble is a lot of those people were pretty out and out frauds. I'm I'm thinking back to Matt Fury back in the day to really go back. And they didn't, you know, their association and their promoting of catch wrestling, I think, did the art a disservice. But I I think, and I think it's undeniable, that catch wrestling is legit. So, can can you just tell people what catch wrestling is, please, Val? Sure. So, um, in a nutshell, catch wrestling is uh the combat version of collegiate folk style wrestling. Right? And uh that is what we called uh North American catch wrestling. There there were two two branches and then sub-branches that that spawned from that. So, in one direction, it developed into collegiate wrestling when they decided in 1950 to remove the submissions. And you also had the freestyle Olympic um style. Then the other direction it went was the carnival style, which was a condensed version of uh North American catch that was more defensively minded, plus there was some show work involved there. When you say show work, that's what, you know, people would call fake or pre-arranged outcome. Yeah, in in some cases it it was worked because they were entertaining in carnivals. But a lot of these guys would take on legitimate challenges as well. Whereas on the North American catch wrestling side, we were still fully engaged in full-blown combat. We were in the competition circuit. So, we were in a a different environment of pressure testing. The North American catch wrestlers were also very much aligned with the boxing community. So, you saw a lot of people back in the day, which is what we call comp uh combination men. So, Jack Dempsey and all these other guys. So, they were all training North American catch wrestling and that's exactly how Archie Moore got involved in catch wrestling as well. So, a lot of your early boxers, especially in the black community, they were cross-trained in catch wrestling. So, I I don't want to get too deep into the history, but I think on this podcast we've had Oz Ostwick, who's an English martial artist, who's really studied the English wrestling systems. So, what's the connection between the English catch wrestling coming out of places like the Snake Pit and North American catch wrestling? Because superficially they're similar. Yeah, so uh catch wrestling as a idea, meaning wrestling from the standing position and then going to the ground and mat wrestling, a lot of the concepts of the instruction and the systemization of it happened in Lancashire in the UK. Okay? And this was, you know, when the the Brits were the global superpower. Uh a lot of their their navy men traveled around the world. They learned various aspects of different martial art systems and they began to fuse them into their their local wrestling. And they also incorporated local folk style wrestling into that. So, you had a lot of folks who came over from the UK to the East Coast and across the US that began to transplant and transfer the style. So, around the late 19th century is where you had more and more immigration happening. Um and the US was the wild frontier. And so, a lot of your disputes were settled nose to nose, if you will. And and wrestling was quite the way to settle those disputes. In fact, Abraham Lincoln uh was also a catch wrestler. He was known as a very fierce catch wrestler, considering he was about 6'4". And so, the linkage is the shared history of America and uh Great Britain. But where they diverged is that once catch wrestling made its way into America, it had to deal with a more violent or a more vibrant, violent culture, right? And so, the Americans, uh being very war-facing, adapted catch wrestling to be more combat-oriented and less sport, less gentlemanly. And so, what developed in America was the more aggressive, more violent form of catch wrestling, which was replete with more submission holds, more pain mechanics, etc. Because it was aligned for combat, whereas the English style was still very sportive and gentlemanly. So, let's just go back uh 150 years to the roughly the era of Abraham Lincoln. If we had had a catch wrestling match, what would the rules have been? Because I think we can't underestimate the effect to which rules drive a sport. Jiu-jitsu doesn't penalize guard pulling, and as a result, that is a viable strategy within that sport. ADCC has a different set of rules, it does penalize guard pulling. As a result, you get more grappling. What were kind of the the rule set or the rule sets and the win conditions for catch wrestling call it in the late 1800s? They varied because it was an agreement between the two competitors. So, if they said, for example, we want to have a rough and tumble, that meant anything goes, include which included biting, eye gouging, um you could attack small digits, you could uh gooch grab. It was no holds barred. Anything would go. Including striking in some cases, right? Uh in a lot of cases, in fact. Now, in the English world, they were a bit more focused on being civilized. They didn't view the Americans as being very civilized. So, in the world of civility, for example, you didn't choke in English catch. You would put a neck crank on, but you didn't choke. And they were also very sensitive to being on your back in England. So, as soon as your back touched, no matter what you were trying to do, if you had an active submission or whatever the case may be, that was the end of the match because they were very match-focused. Uh in the North American style catch, we actually developed a um a body scissors or or guard, except our focus was not to necessarily stay there. It was to make a quick attack and get up or reverse your opponent. Very, very similar to what you see in modern jiu-jitsu today, in so far as the understanding of the purpose of the guard. It's interesting, you mentioned that getting pinned on your back for any reason would be a a loss. That explains why some of the catch wrestling books I have on the bookshelf behind me show people applying the Kimura essentially from the bottom of side control, but in a full bridge. So, bridging up on their head to to apply the the crank. It's not because it's biomechanically better necessarily, it's to avoid that their their shoulder blades to get pinned on the ground for even a second. That's true. And actually, a lot of the print was monopolized by the English. It was the pride of a nation uh catch wrestling. In fact, it was the Americans that called it catch wrestling. Uh because in America, we tend to systemize things and simplify things a bit. Over in the UK, catch as catch can is just British slang for get whatever you can. Just just get whatever you can. It's it's as simple as if I say, hey, Stephen, uh how's it how's uh it coming, you know, as far as finding work? Ah, I'm trying to catch as catch can. That's what that's that was the response. So, whenever they would have these matches, they would say, okay, well, when you're talking about wrestling holds and and standing, throwing and pinning, oh, catch what you catch can. But in America, we tend to systemize a bit more. We need something that's a bit more portable and transferable. And so, we in English in in American English, we simply distilled it down to catch wrestling. And catch for us in the North American uh system became more aligned with its combat elements. And it was win by any means necessary while grabbing whatever you can. So, it changed a bit in terms of how we took it and applied it. And the violent science that came with that. So, obviously, if we were doing a rough and tumble match and you gouged out both of my eyes and bit my nose off, we would take that as a win. I would I would assume so. I don't know how tough you are. I don't know how tough you are, Stephen. You might say, you know, give me that eye back. We're going to keep fighting. So, But obviously, that's not a method that you can use for training. You you can't be eye gouging your training partners, nor is that really a method that you can have for competitive sport. So, what would have been a typical set of rules that we would have engaged in if we were just doing a sportive version of it in North American catch? I don't think Abraham Lincoln eye gouged that many people. I haven't seen any accounts of him eye gouging, but uh I I have read some material that suggested that he was um a hooker, meaning that he was very known for causing damage to his opponents. Which is kind of interesting because that's not what you think when you look at him, but he's actually in the wrestling Hall of Fame, in fact. So, it's kind of interesting to know that, but typical rules, if you were not um going down rough and tumble, eye gouging, fish hooking or anything of that sort, um it would have looked like what you would describe as modern no-gi. But with the pin involved. That's what it would look like. So, could you win just with a submission? Say a a standing neck crank or a standing keylock choke? So, the guy could give up. The guy could say uncle. Absolutely. Absolutely. He could say uncle. We didn't tap. Yeah. So, so so so tapping was the worst thing you could do. If you were able to verbalize your defeat, saying uncle, that was considered more manly. And a lot of times, if we if you wanted to avoid tapping or saying uncle, when we put you in a submission, you could go to your back um to avoid damage, accept the pin, and then it would be a pinfall. That's why when you look at many of the early records of uh competition in North American catch, you find that a lot of guys lost through pinfall. But what they aren't but what that data doesn't tell you is that they went to the their back to avoid getting their limbs broken. It also helps explain why some of these moves in some of the books behind me don't look at all realistic if you look at it just through the lens of no-gi grappling. Like, why is this guy who's belly down allowing this other guy to like wrap his legs up into something that looks like a pro wrestling move? Well, the alternative was getting pinned. Yes. So, if you included getting was it a three-second pin or just pinning for half an instant or or you know what happened? Uh so, it it went from um and this was a this was actually controversial because uh for example, in the in the UK, it was a touch pin. As soon as your back touched, it didn't matter, you know, if you were all the way cylindered, the cylinder of your back or your shoulders, as soon as your back touched, that was a pin. In America, though, um the two-second pin, which are shoulders flat, was the rule of the day. And then also the three-second pin. There was also five seconds, right? I train my guys on a five-second pin where you absolutely, positively have to be flat. But I only train that from the standpoint of creating movement and wrestling away from positions and not allowing positions to materialize. So, it was mainly for the scrambling component of it. But um I also for purposes of our competitions that I'm actually building, we give the athletes the option to finish or pin, meaning that it will look like a regular no-gi match. But if I get to a position, I can cue the ref and say pin, and then the ref can start counting a pin. So, I can initiate a pin at any moment. So, let's say I'm in side control. And I'm looking for a double wrist lock or what you may call the Kimura in uh jiu-jitsu. As you know, once you get to side control, that's technically a pin. But if I wanted to demoralize, let's say, for example, a jiu-jitsu guy, I'll get him in side control and I'll cue the ref and say pin. That's demoralizing, right? And a jiu-jitsu guy might get a wrestler down and say, you know what? Rather than submit you, I'm going to pin you. Right? So, in either case, you can use it as a tool to really stick it to your opponent. How does the the guard or the bottom leg scissors play into this then? If if I have you in the guard, am I not pinning myself? Definitely in English catch, but depending on the rules that you agreed to. So, there was there was an exchange of fluidity, if you will. So, you may say, I can use my body scissors, you can use your body scissors, um as long as I'm engaged in what's called an active submission. If I'm laying there to rest or to be passive, they would look at it like, okay, you're not fighting back. You're just just pinned. But if you are actively looking for grips, you're actively controlling, you're actively trying to manipulate their base, you're looking for a submission, the active submission rule is not a pin. So, and is this historically or is this in today's competition? There were instances of it historically, but in modern uh rule sets, mainly uh if you look at the uh national level competitions that are hosted by Josh Barnett, he has the active submission rule, which is which also is a throwback to those instances where guys did agree to fight under those rules. So, now you're talking to a jiu-jitsu guy primarily, although I have trained in in various systems of catch. So, I'm going to really zone in on this. Would half guard be considered a uh a pinning position? Would a detached recumbent guard be considered a pinning position? Depending on the rules, uh because because for us, half guard is Turk for us, right? So, it's just it's just a basic Turk and that leg Turk generally is used to set up a pinning combination. It's also used as a means of while you're controlling the bottom leg, you're controlling their base and their ability to um move their hips effectively, right? So, you cut their hips hip mobility by 25%. And now you have to do is control that top leg and start the process of pressuring down on your opponent. And you could certainly find yourself in an instance where, for example, if you get double unders from that half guard position and you start clearing your leg and working into a mount position, you very well possibly could end up in a pinning uh position. Now, it seems like there's been a reasonably strong influence of catch on modern no-gi grappling and on modern MMA. But a lot of that seems to have come via Japan and via the influence of things like shoot wrestling, Shooto, Pancrase. And there was an I've talked about this before, but there was an era in early MMA in Japan when they'd throw a Brazilian guy against a Japanese guy, and the fight would go one or two ways. Either the Brazilian guy would shoot in, take the guy down, get to the mount, get to the back and choke out the Japanese guy, or the Japanese guy would get a hold of a heel hook and break the Brazilian guy's leg. That was that was like 80% of those matches. Yeah, that's true. That's true. That's true. So, where did the Japanese lineage come from? And it did that mostly feed back into MMA or is that also an influence in modern day catch? So, Karl Gotch and uh Billy Robinson, uh as well as Lou Thesz and uh even Roy Wood, they went over to Japan. As far as uh the information uh goes. And um they started uh training guys over there in pro wrestling, but the pro wrestling was actually catch wrestling. Then from there, they began to create competitions that had unique rule sets, but allowed for MMA styled competition. And so, one of the biggest names in Japanese uh wrestling is going to be Satoru Sayama. You know, Tiger Mask. And uh so, he was one of those uh guys who took the techniques uh to another level as far as how to express them through a rule set that entertained the Japanese audience. The Japanese, for example, didn't like to see blood. So, when you uh were in a in a in a shoot match over in Japan, uh they really didn't favor athletes being struck in the face. So, when you got to the mount, that's why you didn't see a lot of striking to the face, but you would see them rip limbs off. So, detaching someone's arm from their body was was preferable to turning him into ground beef. Uh and so, this was also, you know, the group of people that then precipitated into what was Pancrase, right? So, you had the likes of Ken Shamrock and various other guys that came through those lines of training with Japanese wrestlers. And so, when the UFC from like 2000 and from 2000 to 2008 started buying out a lot of the Japanese organizations, you noticed that from that from 2000 to 2008, a lot of your imported guys, they were all these shoot wrestlers. You know, they all had that background and the overlap like Pat Miletich, all these guys that were coming in, they had those catch backgrounds. And so, what people don't realize is that there was an era where there were Japanese styled or Pancrase-oriented catch wrestlers that defined what modern MMA was going to be because they brought in the strikes, they brought in the athleticism, the grappling, they brought in everything. And so, the modern MMA template was set during that period of time. I I would argue that Kazushi Sakuraba defeating was it four or five Gracies in a row also had a lot to do with showing that this was a legit approach. And I mean, the the novelty of what Sakuraba was doing at the time, like giving up his back and going for a Kimura or a double wrist lock was it considered insanity at the time. I think so. It's technically incorrect from a jiu-jitsu standpoint. Yeah. But he made it work. He made it work in MMA again and again and again. Yes. And now, even in jiu-jitsu, you have a turtle guard. Mhm. So, so I know the guy who is known as the Turtle King in jiu-jitsu. And so, it's it's fascinating to me. And Wado Telles? No, um Thiago Macedo. Okay. So, me so, I started training catch wrestling in 1987. Okay? So, my dad started teaching me when I was about five years old. So, I'm coming up on my my 39th year of doing this. Uh so, I've been in it 38 years. And so, for me, I saw what catch wrestling was compared to what jiu-jitsu was. I saw when they converged, right? So, I was around when the no-gi, the discussions started, the leg locks started coming into jiu-jitsu, the throws, the takedown, the Renaissance period of 2015 where now all of a sudden, you know, Brazilian guys are using Japanese terms and they never did judo a day in their life. And they pronounced the words wrong. You know? So, so I was I was around uh to see all that. Uh and and so, it's it's very fascinating to me to to see how far we've come. And it's also interesting to me to see how much we've forgotten about how much uh Sakuraba exampled what catch wrestling was. I mean, even Josh Barnett when he fought Rodrigo Nogueira, you know, we we we we overlooked these things because jiu-jitsu just has a better story. You know, it has it has more mystical origins. You know, it it sounds cooler. You know, and and to be honest with you, there's a lot of racism around catch wrestling. And I'm going to tell you why. This is going to shock you. You ready? I was born ready. All right. So, the issue here is that the martial arts world, they don't want to acknowledge that the most effective grappling system was created by Europeans. Don't want to acknowledge that. Don't want to acknowledge that. When you say the martial arts world, who do you mean? Well, so, how can I put this? I'm trying to articulate this in the best way I can. I mean, maybe maybe martial arts is often considered to be an Asian thing. Well, and that and that's where I Yep, that's where I'm going. So, martial arts in of themselves is an Asian niche platform. You know, you and I know what it was like to watch Kung Fu theater and all this stuff, staying up late, getting raccoon eyes, you know, yeah, the deadly, you know, we we saw all that. And so, the martial arts world could not effectively sell this idea of Europeans devising a well-thought-out system of grappling? Nah. So, even when I would explain to people the the origin of what we call catch wrestling, the feedback I would get is there's no way some white dude in Europe would have thought about how to do X, Y, and Z. That was the Japanese. It's it's interesting. I think this started breaking down a little bit and I'll give credit to Bruce Lee. Because when obviously Bruce Lee came from a Kung Fu background and you know, Wing Chun and Northern Shaolin. Then he very rapidly started adding things like wrestling, things like boxing, things like Savate even. And mixing it in there. And I remember realizing as I was training in my traditional Kung Fu systems and you know, spending time in a horse stance and cat stance and hopping around and and pretending I was a you know, leaping butterfly flaming dragon. That you know, boxing is a martial art. And I think this is now taken for granted. It truly is. Yes. But but I think the wrestling is a martial art. That's that's come a little bit slower. Yes. And and the realization that there was this European lineage or various European systems of essentially submission grappling. Oh, yeah, everywhere. I mean, just about every culture has some form of wrestling. That's almost undeniable. I I I mean, I can take you even into West Africa. I mean, submission wrestling was there. And I can tell you, it you know, you go among the Wolof, you go among my people, the Fulani, we we all have forms of submission style wrestling, grappling. We all have it. But for whatever reason, there was just this high degree of like pushback when it came to catch wrestling given its origin story. So, the origin story doesn't fit within the the classical model that that people are accustomed to. So, jiu-jitsu on the other hand, the samurai, you know, on the battlefield and you know, people picture the samurai with the sword, it's it's dark, the sun is behind him. You've seen the image, the sun is behind him, it's setting or it might be raining, he's got the hair that's long. That that's not the same as And it's a cool ass image. I mean, we're not going to Yeah, yeah, that's a cool ass sales job. Yeah, it's not as cool as the the English guy drinking a beer who's going to rip your arm off. It it just doesn't have the same effect. So, so um so even for me, you know, as as a brother in the in the in the art, trying to teach it and and promote it, you lose people as soon as or most of the time, you lose people as soon as you you mention Europe. And it it it's just it's it's blanket it's blanket racism. Underneath all that, it's just this unwillingness to believe that Europeans were capable of doing anything as sophisticated as submission wrestling. I mean, I guess people just thought they were just strong, that they can just throw rocks, you know, kind of like confused. It's very confusing to me. Especially when you consider, for example, I mean, Europe was at war for a thousand years. What do you think they were doing? What do you what do you think they were doing with those swords? And and if we've seen the recreations where people are getting dressed up in period armor and using period weapons, sometimes even sharp period weapons, which is insane. It's this idea of walking out there. I walk out there, you walk out there. I've got my double-handed sword, you're wearing a breastplate, and I cut you and it goes through your breastplate. That's bullshit, right? It it might have knocked you over. Right. And then I would have had to find a chink in your armor and sink a dagger through it or maybe use my sword or maybe bludgeon you to death with a hammer. Yep. But the this idea of this sword just cuts through armor. Well, I guess people are pretty stupid back then because they were spending the equivalent of a million dollars on a suit of armor and it can just be defeated by one guy who's not wearing a helmet, probably not wearing anything on his upper body because he's you know, he's a Hollywood actor who's spent a year working out for the role and he just magically swing a sword through through armor. I I think they were really, really dumb back then. Well, and that's the thing, um I I will also say, you know, I would like to apologize on behalf of America because in America, we love excuse me, in America, we we love the unbelievable. The more unrealistic, the more we buy into it. We love being obsessed with cultures that that differ from our own. And I think it's unfortunate because there are many things that um while we have embraced, you know, cultures outside of our own, we've lost connection to the same things that exist in some form or another within our own culture. Which which is really, really sad. And so, just like as you mentioned, wrestling uh being viewed as a martial art, you know, this was one of the the the the talking points that got um wrestling excluded from UFC 1 because folks said, well, wrestling's not a martial art. Even though the origin of wrestling is martial. Yeah. It is martial. I think one of the things that undermined the legitimacy of catch wrestling, at least initially, was its connection to pro wrestling. I mean, Oh, man, yeah. Somebody like Lou Thesz was a very legitimate Yeah. Yeah. fighter. Yeah. But he did do pro wrestling to pay the bills. Yes. And so, you see arranged matches. And I think that Yeah, it's a stigma. Yeah. that is kind of followed it a little bit. Yeah. I think it's a big I think it's a huge liability. I myself, I I represent the North American lineage, even though my lineage comes through Lou Thesz, who was a legitimate shooter. I focus more on the the combat history. The viable combat history. And so, what I teach and what I show is the actual martial application, the combat version. Now, the world loves pro wrestling. No doubt. And catch wrestling is, in my opinion, the only martial art that killed itself with its own success. It found a way to avoid all of the injuries that come with competing in actual contests. And it did such a good job. It was so successful. I mean, you're talking about in like the 1920s, 90,000 people showing up to see a catch wrestling match. Okay? So, That was the Hackenschmidt Frank Gotch match? Yeah. Yeah. You're talking 90,000 people. Right? During a time where where were you even getting 90,000 people back then? Okay? So, it was very successful. People would come out to these shows and these catch wrestlers were making lots of good money. And so, they had no incentive on going back to as they say, getting it out the cornfield, okay? And pro wrestling right now makes money. Okay? I've had many guys who compete in pro wrestling come to my gym and they want to learn actual catch wrestling. And I show them a throw or a toss. And next I know, they're adding that as, you know, part of their repertoire. And then now it becomes their signature move. So, I'm not trying to build pro wrestling. I'm I'm trying to build the infrastructure to create a community of grapplers that compete in legitimate contests consistently, honoring its actual roots in wrestling, its actual roots in competition. And that's what I'm trying to bring to the forefront as an alternative style to, you know, the more popular style of no-gi jiu-jitsu. I do have brethren out there who um who oscillate between both legitimate grappling and pro wrestling. Um but to your point, it's the giant monkey on the back of catch wrestling because as soon as you show up and you say, I'm a catch wrestler, they say, oh, WWE. Yeah. And no, I'm not. I'm not that, but uh you're absolutely right. It it it is the the nature of the success of catch wrestling. And I would say this, if I had to advise the jiu-jitsu community, do not follow what catch wrestling did. Because what started all this really was, you know, you wanted to make uh your matches more viewer-friendly. You wanted to make them more entertaining. You wanted to monetize your your training facilities, right? So, once the money was being made and you had a means of competing, now it's like, you know what? We got to think longevity and we want to reach a broader audience. Catch wrestling went the route of faking matches. And the reality is, in jiu-jitsu, you do have people that engage in um throwing matches and faking matches. It does happen. And my advice to the jiu-jitsu community is do not follow in the footsteps of the ancestors of catch wrestling because you will be trying to do exactly what I'm trying to do, which is to revive a viable style and you're running behind all the traffic of the fake shit. Don't do it. Well, I I definitely want to get to the the modern viable style and the competition scene there. Uh because as you know, I don't know an awful lot about the competition scene in that particular area. But let's go back to somebody like Lou Thesz because you can watch actual video footage of him black and white video footage of him pro wrestling. So, how do we know that he was an actual shooter, by which we mean somebody who would fight for real? Like, what's sort of what's the evidence and how do we know what his skills were against full resistance as opposed to a compliant opponent for the television cameras? That I don't know. I don't know much in the way of, you know, documented uh shoots. I don't I don't know much about that, but I do know he was a legitimate wrestler. He had won titles and things of that sort. So, he was a legitimate wrestler. I do know he also uh did uh train at the Snake Pit. He did visit. He went over there, he did visit and he did train wrestlers there as well. Um I will say this, he trained Archie Moore. Archie Moore, the great heavyweight. Okay. The boxer. Yep, the boxer. So, my father was Muhammad Ali's sparring partner. And so, when Muhammad Ali was training um in Chicago in Archie Moore's gym, my father was brought to the gym because my father was, you know, uh fighting a lot in the street at the time. Okay? And so, Archie Moore was a legitimate fighter. Lou Thesz and Archie Moore would give it a go often times. This is what was reported to me by my father. I don't know of anything outside of that. I can only tell you what my father told me. And my father was a legitimate shooter. And so, my father had the chance to roll with Archie Moore and I can only infer that Archie was a reflection of Lou. That's the best that I could give you. I'm a reflection of my father because of how he trained me. And my father would mention, you know, that there were specific things that Lou did this, he taught this to Archie and he did this. Archie added his flair on top of this. So, I have the indicators, but I can't pull out the evidence to say specifically, I know of this date, this time when he had a shoot. I can't speak to that specifically. Well, let's talk about your father. I mean, clearly there were black boxers going all the way back, you know, Jack Johnson. But I can't think of that many black wrestlers or even black pro wrestlers. So, that how did he pick it up? So, when my father was um a boy, when he was about five years old, um my grandfather was killed by the Ku Klux Klan. Okay? And um, you know, so my family went to war with the Ku Klux Klan and they confiscated all of our farms in Mississippi at the time. Okay? So, you're talking about 1940, 1941. And my family, we call that the Red Year, right? Because that's where these white supremacists uh spilled the blood of my family. And, you know, it scattered us all across the US. My father, uh when he ran away, he joined uh the circus. At the time, in uh Baseville, Mississippi, the railroad was um being fortified. And so, there was a lot of traffic coming through there. And so, he was able to stole away and he started traveling with the circus, rode the rails. He was trained by Gypsies. Okay? Now, at this time, he first learned carny wrestling because he was in the carnival and he learned the working. My dad even spoke the language, carny. So, what was carny wrestling? So, carny wrestling would have been the carnival wrestling. That's what we say in we shorten it by say carny, but it was the carnival wrestling. So, these guys were legitimate North American catch wrestlers, but over time, they developed a system that was condensed. Right? So, counter wrestling is the contribution of carny wrestling. Prior to that, there was no such thing as counter wrestling. The reason they developed counter wrestling is because if you were working a match, you didn't know if the person was going to double cross you or not. So, you would always work from a defensive position. Right? So, a lot of the movement of the wrestling was exchanged in favor of static positioning. So, it was positional wrestling. Okay? So, it looks more like jiu-jitsu in the sense of positional hierarchy. So, they shifted to positional hierarchy to protect themselves. It was very defensively based. So, if you and I are going, but I don't know if you're going to if you've put money on and you're supposed to lose, Yep. But I don't know if you've bet on yourself and then at a moment in the pre-arranged match, you're just going to rip my arm off to win. Correct. Mhm. I've got to protect myself from a potential double cross. Is that is that correct? That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. And so, So, I'm not going to give you the position that gives you the opportunity to rip my arm off. Correct. Or I'll position myself in a way where I can go either way. I can defend, escape, or allow, but I still am in a position to competently protect myself. Okay? And so, my dad rolled the rolled the rails and traveled with the circus for about 10 years or so. And then he ended up in Chicago with family. So, he managed to track down family in Chicago. And he took a wrong turn one day because he was interested in what was called a Chicago style hot dog. You may have heard of these before. Upon taking the wrong way, he entered gang territory. And um they approached him and they were looking for trouble. And he had to fight. So, he had a fist to cuff match with one of the gents. He was then invited back to fight. And it's kind of interesting back then, you would invite other men to come fight. You know, young men would say, hey, I would like to fight you. Well, what day? Oh, let's pick Tuesday at this time. We'll show up just like we're showing up right now. Like we we said, okay, we're going to connect. And this is what guys would do back then. Say, I'm going to go fight you under the oak tree. What are you going to bring? I'm going to bring a knife. I'm going to bring this. And that's how they did it. And after my father fought the toughest guy in that gang, they said, hey, man, you're really good at fighting, man. You should probably go over to uh Archie Moore's gym. So, that's how my father ended up going to Archie Moore's gym. And so, it's around this time now. It's probably like 1954. And this is around the time now my father runs into Muhammad Ali and Archie Moore. And so, he's talking to Archie and he explains to Archie that he he wrestles. And Archie said, oh, you wrestle. And so, from there, they had the conversation and my dad had a shootout with Archie. And as my dad describes it, Archie tuned his ass up. And so, from that point on, my dad decided he wanted to train under Archie. And so, he not only trained in the catch wrestling, the North American style, but then he also trained in boxing as well. And that's why actually, to this day, I'm one of the very few people in the United States that knows the complete system of inside fighting because it was passed down through the family. This might be a rabbit hole. But That's go for it. One of the Ali fights that not many people know about was his fight against Inoki, the Japanese pro wrestler. Yes. Yes. And it's actually a a it had the potential to be the first mixed style true MMA fight that was televised. In fact, it ended up being an incredibly boring thing to watch. Like there's there's about 10 seconds of interesting action and the rest of it is Inoki on his back kicking at the shins of Ali. And it's it's Ali going stand up and Inoki going come down. And it's it it was a probably a disaster financially. There was no part two. Yeah, what what people don't realize is that butt sitting is a catch wrestling technique. Okay. Yes. Yeah. So, Okay. Yes. I I did not expect a catch wrestler to defend butt scooting, but Well, it it it was a it was a technique. We would kick at the knees, we would trip you, we would wrestle up. This was a part of the curriculum. Right? And so, now, I'm not saying at all, you know, you just sit down and you say, come give it to me in a grappling match. We were talking about in the context of, you know, someone was striking you and you ended up on your butt. And just like you do technical stand up in jiu-jitsu, it was the same concept. Right? So, what people fail to realize is that many there are many concepts in jiu-jitsu and catch wrestling that align. They they they do align. Um so, it's not it's not too far-fetched. So, for example, if you look at Sambo. Sambo is catch wrestling and judo mixed. And if you look at any combat Sambo manual or or any Sambo manual, you see leg entanglements. This is also catch wrestling. And you see them being able to sit their butt, what you might call a single leg X, uh and a an X guard entry, K guard, whatever you may call it. These things already existed in catch. But the monetization that was that came with pro wrestling made many of these techniques fall into disfavor and disuse. And then once the rules of sport for folk style collegiate wrestling were solidified, the public wanted to see a faster, more explosive athlete. You're going to see fast, you're going to see speed and explosiveness from neutral, from the feet. You're not going to see explosiveness from the butt. Right? So, we still have the leg entanglements in folk style wrestling. We call them leg passing, though. So, they're still there. But they've been muted, right? They've been silenced. So, jiu-jitsu and catch wrestling, they have a lot in common as far as like some core concepts, but they have different tactical approaches overall. Well, let's let's wrench this conversation out of the past and into the present. Let's do it. So, what is the catch wrestling competitive scene like in North America right now? Developing. Developing. And is what are the different rule sets and what are the different because again, I think rule sets drive sport. If I don't follow football at all, but if I do know that if you had two footballs instead of one football, or if you allowed if you allowed uh I don't know, uh double leg takedowns and and pinning on the ground, football would look different. Of course, of course. Um what are the what are the rule sets that are in competition right now in North America? So, the the largest competition in America right now is the ACWA uh hosted by Josh Barnett, which is the catch wrestling nationals tournament. It typically draws anywhere from, you know, 80 to 100 competitors. And you're talking about folks that have competed uh in the Olympics, ADCC, uh competitors, some of the best from around the country in wrestling, uh and no-gi, who also have a wrestling background. They show up to this tournament. And they compete under the modern rules of catch, uh which include pinning as well as submissioning. Now, um the rule set follows the scoring of folk style wrestling, right? So, you get you score for takedown and establishing some degree of control. It doesn't require as much control as it does in folk style, but takedowns score. So, takedowns are big. Um and they have an active submission rule. So, if you end up in your back, so, for example, a guy shoots on you and he hits you with a double leg and you land up you land in the guard position, you can work from that position so long as you are actively looking for a submission. So, you're talking about the referees are guys who are uh very well experienced, um both in wrestling and and grappling and submissioning and even understand jiu-jitsu. So, they know what to look for. In so far as if you are trying to retain guard, that's passive. You should be trying to get up, for example. Or if you're actively looking for a submission, meaning you establishing a grip, you have head control, you're trying to catch an angle, you're trying to sweep, you're trying to lock a limb to bring them over. That is very active. So, it it it looks more like an MMA rule set. Okay? So, folks compete in uh double elimination. So, you can end up with six matches. All at five minutes each. They're very intense matches. You know, top, I believe, top three to top eight will qualify for all Americans. So, it's a very um respectable tournament. I've competed in the tournament. That's the largest. Then you have your your regional tournaments that are hosted by gyms themselves. Not a federation. So, there is no federation component that oversees and regulates specific rule sets. So, these so, you have different uh tournament formats where, for example, guys will compete in a 10-minute match. Guys might compete in the cage. So, that competition scene is all over the place, right? And there is no youth uh division. There there is no youth uh competition. That's what I'm working on. Is it with me and my wife. We're working on building out the youth because we've been able to successfully train youth catch wrestlers. But then also something other than the national tournament, we want to have city, state, and regional uh tournaments as well. And so, I'm working to actually do that myself and build that out in the Grand State of Texas. It's very easy to do because we have at least we have a lot of the best no-gi grapplers in the world here, right? And it's grappling is very big in Texas. But then you also have the catch wrestling world championships over in uh the UK. So, this attracts people from all over the world. The US team is assembled after they win nationals here in the United States. So, a team USA is sent over to the UK to compete against team UK and any of the other foreign countries that show up to compete. The catch wrestling world championships, which are hosted by uh the Snake Pit of Wigan, does attract uh you know, uh gold medalists from judo, Olympians in freestyle. It attracts the best of the best in the world of wrestling and judo. So, ironically, a lot of judo guys prefer to compete in catch wrestling than they do uh jiu-jitsu because they don't want to deal with all the Nawaza, for whatever reason. But they they love the catch wrestling because they can still use their throws and they can pin because you also pin in judo. So, they like having the opportunity to pin. Albeit, you know, pinning some guy for for 20 seconds is is is a whole different thing than pinning some guy for three seconds in wrestling. Okay? So, the tournament scene is is developing. It needs work there and, you know, minds other than myself are encouraged to uh, you know, participate in that that building process. Awesome. Well, Val, it's been absolutely fascinating and I wish you the best of luck with your teaching and your training and your your education projects. Thank you, sir. Thank you for having me.