Jiu Jitsu Has A Serious Problem (And Everyone Knows It) ft. Dr Bridget Mottram

Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to the show. Uh, big thing in Jiu-Jitsu of late is sexual abuse. And we've seen a couple of really high-level grapplers, celebrities within our game, Andre Galvao, Isaac Michelle, and others, many others over the years, um, have some pretty heavy allegations made against them. Now, JT and I have spoken about this. Um, and we wanted to do an episode where we explore, um, the realities of sexual abuse in the world of Jiu-Jitsu, because we we all know, you only got to talk to your friends at grappling. We all know it exists, uh, because the the whole culture itself is very much a hierarchy. There is a lot of power assigned to certain individuals. Um, and we know that it's out there in the world. And so, if it's out there in the world and we exist in this culture within a a very, you know, top-down power structure, then it's going to exist here to a great degree. Um, we want to get into it, and we want to be able to talk about it from the point of view of a couple of guys who don't really know too much about the realities of it. We have the privilege of being men, and so it's not something we have to deal with so much. Um, and we wanted to bring on someone that could enlighten us and enlighten you, the listeners. And so, today we have, and we're very proud to to have our friend, Dr. Bridget Motrum. Thanks for being here. Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Speaker 1: Absolute pleasure. Um, we've known each other for a long time. We've trained together. We've trained Jiu-Jitsu together. Uh, uh, you are like a Tasmanian devil on the mats. But more importantly, you this is your area of expertise. You have a PhD in criminology. Um, could you go into what you've studied and and and the field that you're in? Speaker 2: Yeah, so, uh, I do have a PhD in criminology, uh, specializing in domestic, family, and sexual violence. Uh, and so over the last, over a decade, I've worked in academia, uh, frontline social work service provision, uh, non-government organization, and government policy, legislation, and programs. Uh, and I kind of live and breathe this stuff a little bit. Speaker 1: Wow. Damn, thank you. Thank you for taking on what I can what I can only imagine is a pretty tough gig. Speaker 2: Yeah, it can be. It can be, but it's also pretty nice to go home at the end of the day and know that you're kind of contributing to society a little bit. Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Helping folks. Yeah. So, on that, I I I guess sort of, um, you know, I mentioned at the at the front there that there's been the Atos thing and the the Isaac Michelle thing and and I think most of our listeners are familiar with with this that's going on. But what I think's important is to sort of define what at least with how it's, um, how it's playing out as we see it in Jiu-Jitsu, what actually what is sexual abuse or sexual violence? Speaker 2: Yeah, so we when we talk about sexual violence, it's sort of this really big umbrella term. Um, and I know that we're talking about different jurisdictions where in New South Wales or in Australia. Um, so if we're looking at, uh, what we think of when we talk about sexual violence in Australia, it's really broad. It goes anywhere from what we colloquially understand as rape to sort of the the sexual harassment, the cat calling, and everything in between. Um, so we've got sexual touching, uh, we've got harassment, all of those bits and pieces that use, uh, sex and and sexual innuendos to make people feel uncomfortable or to make them feel violated. And one of the really key parts of this is consent. And what is consent, um, and giving that freely and without coercion. I think we're going to touch on that a little bit more. Speaker 1: Yeah, so, um, I I guess like, if we take the the allegations that, you know, and this is this is a case that's playing out. So I guess we're I'm being cautious to not, um, to, you know, to say that's right. Um, but Andre Galvao, the leader of Atos, you know, one of the most winningest teams of all time, uh, winningest competitors himself, um, recently had a huge fallout. Bunch of people left his gym, bunch of his coaches, and there were multiple women who came forward saying that they had been sexually they were victims of sexual abuse by him. Um, and I believe that some of them were some of the points there were that some had been minors at the point when he had started to sort of groom them and then, you know, that had progressed into their adulthood or whatever. Um, but so, you know, that as a as a as an archetypal kind of story, I think for every grappler you're like, I can see how that would occur in Jiu-Jitsu. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: Right? Like I you don't have to look very far at how our culture is and the nature of the the martial art that we practice and, you know, how much of a male-dominated environment it is, um, how much worship we have towards higher belts. Um, how much kind of leeway those higher belts have to really kind of do whatever they want, right, in a Jiu-Jitsu sense. Um, so, you know, so talking about that specifically, what do you think is the the type or the category of of abuse that's mostly occurring there? Speaker 2: Yeah, so when you kind of put it in those terms, we can actually really see the correlation with what we're seeing come out of the Catholic Church. And that, uh, the grooming, the use of grooming, which is really, really important. Uh, and the way in which we see black belts as these, they're on a pedestal. They're kind of go by different rules. Um, and it is a male-dominated sport, right? Like women are rising through the ranks. We've got so many female black belts now. You know, when I started Jiu-Jitsu, I think we had maybe one or two female black belts in Australia. Um, so that's amazing, but we can't pretend that it's not still very, very male-dominated. So what we're seeing are these really senior brown and black belt men who own gyms, they are they win championships, they're amazing coaches. Um, and we all we all know those black belts where they're always rolling with the new female white belts, and they always get them into that like into those really precarious positions and then kind of hold them there and laugh and make inappropriate comments. Like we we all know who they are and what that looks like. Um, and that's able to really thrive because of the power dynamics that we're kind of talking about. So, you know, we've got the the rank structure, um, we've got gyms that don't allow you to refuse a roll with a higher belt, which is something that I've always very much disagreed with. Speaker 1: That's weird, isn't it? Speaker 2: I find it so weird. And it it again goes to this idea around, um, like this god-like status of higher belts. Speaker 1: Yeah. But is it also the approval of the coach that you're like, if I don't agree, then I don't move up here? You know, because the the whole belt thing is like, get coach's approval. Speaker 2: Yep. Speaker 1: You know, even if it's not the coach, say it's another Speaker 2: Hmm. Speaker 1: student or instructor and you're like, oh, I don't want to go with the creepy guy. But coach is like, roll with them. And you're like, fuck, what Speaker 2: No, it's on rules, on the wall. You can't refuse a higher a higher roll and you can't call out a high a higher rank. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Um, and like Speaker 1: Like in some ways too, like, depending on where you're at on this whole thing, sometimes when you say it, you're like, oh, that's fucking cool. Like this place is like militant. It's like old school, it's like, you know. But that's usually, like if you're thinking that, which is what I've thought, you're not thinking about like, oh, how would this be for someone that's like super vulnerable in this environment? Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's sort of the thing I think that a lot of men in Jiu-Jitsu just it's not their life experience, right? And I think that that's the angle that I always like to come at these conversations from. It's not a willful ignorance a lot of the time, it's just not been something that you've been exposed to. Speaker 1: Not on the register. Speaker 2: Yeah, so you just kind of don't see it. Um, but women in Jiu-Jitsu kind of have these inbuilt things that we notice these things really, really quickly as soon as we step into a gym. Um, I think Jess Fraser's probably spoken about it a fair bit. Speaker 1: She she has, yeah, both both her and, um, Hope as well. Like, I mean, but yeah, we we we have interviewed Jess and I've worked with Jess for a long time and Jess has always been such a a strong advocate and really kind of, I guess, really stood up for the cause of, you know, women's Jiu-Jitsu and Australian girls in gear and she's done so much work. So, yeah, and and and awareness too, such a a strong leader, I think, for women in Jiu-Jitsu trying to make the cause to protect women in Jiu-Jitsu to foster it in the culture. So it's it is difficult because, um, just by the sheer nature of, um, just a smaller percentage of I I had some weird illusion that there was some mythical school somewhere where there was just women or just women training. You know, not, oh, no, that is the younger sister of this world champion who's been maybe beat up by her brother continually for years to be so tough and so strong. And and, you know, I don't I guess because I don't want to say this in any any, uh, wrong context, but Jiu-Jitsu is so physical. And getting kind of beat up is kind of part of Jiu-Jitsu. So, Speaker 2: Hmm. Speaker 1: 100%. And sort of the value in Jiu-Jitsu is it teaches you to be tough. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: But I've copped physical abuse. Like I've I've had my eye gouged. You know, I've had almost had my wrist broken. Like intentionally by someone bigger, stronger, and higher rank than me, physically abusing me, not to win the roll, to to just be abusive. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: And I just copped it because I was like, well, that's what it that's what it is, right? You know, this part of the game. And so, this is kind of this is a confusing thing, I think, because you're like, is this what is this what it's meant to be? Like, is that person smothering me? Is that okay? Should I not be a a pussy about this? You know, you know what I'm saying? And that's from a from a from a male perspective. I'm not a small guy, you know, and I'm, you know what I mean? So I it I guess this is a a confusing thing, especially when you're talking about this power dynamic. Speaker 2: Hmm. Speaker 1: Because there's a yeah, there's a fine line there, isn't there, between like, oh, wow, this is like, this is some really cool stuff. Like I'm I'm learning the hard way here and I'm, you know, it's, you know, and I'm I'm becoming tougher and stuff. And that but that can really easy cross over into, no, you're just being abused. You know, and and and depending the nature of it and and your your, you know, your mindset and what not around it, like that could go one of, you know, could go either way. Can you talk to us about, um, I know you've got some stats on on the sexual abuse piece. Could you could you take us through that? Because I'm guessing that, you know, as we've said, um, we don't there's not been a study of such abuse in Jiu-Jitsu. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: But we can look at what we know of the world in general, maybe specific to this state or this country. Uh, and then maybe we can extrapolate some kind of Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I think everything that we know about, uh, sexual abuse in Jiu-Jitsu is all anecdotal. Uh, you know, I know it's something that in in women's spaces it's spoken about heaps and it's just kind of an assumed thing. Um, in terms of our general population, we know that over one in five women report being sexually abused since the age of 15. So it's 22%. Which is just this massive amount, right? Like if you've got more if you've got five or more women in your gym, statistically, at least one of them has been sexually abused. So that's from the Australian Bureau of Statistics, uh, personal safety survey. And that's a that's a self-reporting. So, they're the ones who are even willing to put down on paper that they've been sexually abused. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And a lot of women won't even do that when they've been sexually abused, right? Like it's such a source of shame. So we know that so many women have been sexually abused since that age, uh, since 15. We also know that between 87 and 90% of sexual assault victims don't report to police. Speaker 1: Wow. Speaker 2: So it's really, really rare to report to police. Uh, of those that do, about 15% go to court, proceed to court for a range of reasons, whether that be investigation issues, um, whether the victim just wanted to sort of have it on record but doesn't want to go through the process, whatever that is. And then less than 7% ever get a guilty conviction. So we're talking super low numbers. Um, so the issue is incredibly pervasive throughout our society. And so when we then and that's all around power dynamics, right? Gender power dynamics. So when we then put it in an extremely male-dominated environment that's very close physically, like there's constant physical contact, where we have pretty much predominantly or only men as the senior leadership, we are really setting up these systems for abuse to thrive. And then we add rules on top, like you can't refuse a higher belt. These are all systems that we kind of have in place for different reasons. We didn't we didn't build it so it could be a sexual abuse haven. Um, but it has then ended up allowing for those circumstances. Speaker 1: Wow, that's pretty grim. That's crazy. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not it it's not the the best state of the world. Speaker 1: Does does just to clarify, does that stat, so, you know, 22% of women will report abuse from the since the age of 15, but 87 to 90% of victims don't report? Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: So does that then mean that it's way more than one in five in in reality? Speaker 2: So don't report to police. Speaker 1: Right. Oh, so this is the personal safety survey from the Australian Bureau of Statistics. So not police reporting. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: Like we we kind of don't really even count police reporting very much in in these spaces when we're talking about this kind of stuff because the what we call the dark figure of sexual violence, which is the unreported figure, is so high. So when we're looking at court stats and all that kind of stuff, that's when we look at at police reporting numbers, but if we're looking at the pervasiveness in society, it it's kind of redundant because such a huge amount don't report. Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 1: And so, I I guess I just wanted to ask a question specifically for you. Bridget, would so you've trained Jiu-Jitsu, uh, how long have you trained Jiu-Jitsu just out of interest? Speaker 2: I trained Jiu-Jitsu, kind of started in, um, 2015, and I trained pretty religiously for about seven years. Speaker 1: Right on. Speaker 2: Uh, and I've had a a few years off. I'm hopefully getting back to it after I get back from from Brazil. I'm leaving in five weeks and so I didn't want to snap a knee. Speaker 1: No, fair play. Fair play. Just saving that for the holiday. Why not? I guess the reason why I wanted to ask that is not that that's the most important thing, but obviously, being in Jiu-Jitsu, your perspective is is very, um, informed. Yeah. And so, in that way, for me, like, um, when I walk into any gym, not not even BJJ, but just I walk into a gym. I've spent my whole life in gyms. So I can pick up on certain things pretty quickly, but how clean's the bathroom? Or are people putting their weights back? Or why's that guy giving me the side eye? Like what, you know, like you you get a vibe. Are there for yourself, kind of professionally and personally, particular red flags you pick up on when you go to certain, um, Jiu-Jitsu academies? Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%. Uh, if there is any rules on the wall around refusing a roll or not being able to refuse a roll, I'm out the door. Um, if I'm seeing, you know, there's a class beforehand, and people are just like, it's not a comp class or anything, it's just a normal class. And people are just going to freaking war, like every roll, and people being thrown across the mats, and people being thrown up against walls, I'm out the door. Um, sort of those really highly aggressive behaviors. If I look around and the class is full and there's no women, I'm probably not rolling. Like I wouldn't I wouldn't roll in that class. I'd sort of get a vibe and and again, if they're throwing each other and going to war constantly, it doesn't really feel super safe. Um, because we we do have so many women in Jiu-Jitsu now. So if you've got a full class and you haven't got any women in your class, I'd kind of be asking why. Speaker 1: Says something about the gym. Speaker 2: It it says something about the gym. You know, you you go to a lot of gyms and they have a specific women's classes. Um, and that is so that, you know, women can be in this really safe environment and they can learn from each other and and sort of this really sort of collegial sisterhood kind of thing. It's really beautiful. Um, but it also just tells you a lot about the culture of the gym and how invested the head coach and owner is in making sure that women feel comfortable in that space. Speaker 1: Right. Speaker 2: Um, and then there is also just like a vibe that you can't name. It's the air in the place. And I think it it does still come back to that aggression. Um, because even when I've I've walked into like top competitive Jiu-Jitsu gyms, right? Um, like you think about, oh, um, the one that that Liv, uh, Liv Giles is in down in Speaker 1: Atos. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yes. You walk into that gym, that's like a top competitive gym, right? I you would never feel unsafe walking into that gym though. Like you don't get that air of aggression. Speaker 1: Right. I mean, there's a lot of champions there. There's a lot of female competitors there. And obviously, Liv as well, right? Like, I would actually say Liv, shout out Liv Giles, is possibly more aggressive than Lockland Giles. You know, I mean that respectfully, like she's, you know, like Liv's a competitor, right? So the whole vibe, yeah, you know, I think because Locky is not a Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: not a meathead. Speaker 2: He's not. Super technical. Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and I'm and that's right and wouldn't yeah, you could imagine it would be very hard for that kind of overly masculine kind of somewhat toxic at times, um, culture to be bred underneath his leadership because he's just not that guy. Speaker 2: No. And like, you know, you said that that Liv's, you know, got that aggressive competitor edge. Speaker 1: I I don't mean to say that in any derogatory. I mean, I I've known Liv for years and I I respect the hell out of her and she's a champion. I'm saying that in terms of, um, like if we contrast her and Locky, she's a she comes across as a competitor. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: Whereas Locky is very like chill. Speaker 2: But you can tell the difference though. You can tell the difference between Liv's aggression and like that real macho, this is kind of a dangerous aggression. Speaker 1: Oh, sure. Of course. Of course. Speaker 2: And that's just a vibe that you can't Speaker 1: Like a middle-aged father that's on T, that's fucking way more strict than he should be. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, and you can't always put your finger on why that shift is there. Um, but it's just that vibe that you know as soon as you step into a gym. Speaker 1: Do you think that there is, this might be a little bit to the side, just on that topic, just on that idea that Joe's raising about TRT. Do you think that the fact that there's rampant steroid abuse in BJJ leads to potentially more aggressive behavior? Speaker 2: We know this. Speaker 1: You know, people being emotionally unstable, doing stupid things, the you know what I mean? Because it's I'm not it's not causal, you know, like it's maybe correlated, but I know at least in the world of, um, powerlifting, if you go into a gym where maybe maybe there's a couple of people doing steroids, but but then you go into a gym where everybody is blasting gear, that is a very different gym. Even as a man walking in, you're like, oh, Jesus. Speaker 2: And that comes down to culture, right? Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: So, like you're saying, you know, it's not causal. I completely agree. Like steroids don't make you abusive. Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 2: Um, in the same way that if we sort of look at it in terms of domestic violence, alcohol doesn't make you hit your wife. But we also know that when people drink, their, um, barriers come down and their control comes down. And so that's why we see an increase in abuse when we include alcohol. Same thing with steroids. Um, and then when we have a gym that has a culture of steroid abuse, um, it then gives that permission. So we have further permission as well as the steroid sort of reducing those those barriers and those boundaries. Um, and then we're also probably looking at men who are really invested in looking macho, looking strong, looking masculine. And then that's also feeding into that male privilege and that that belief that men are stronger and they should be entitled to women. So it's kind of all these little different things that we have in society coming together in an extremely dangerous way. So 100% 100%. Speaker 1: Right. Can you, um, one of the things that I'm kind of thinking in the back of my mind with this in this conversation is like some of the stuff that guys tend to say or assume about, you know, about abuse generally. And and and I and I I'd be guilty of of, you know, having said these things myself. But like say with the gym thing, right? Like you've told us the statistics and they paint a very clear picture that abuse is rampant in society. And then we've identified, you know, the unique landscape of Jiu-Jitsu and so the how that can only lend itself to probably more than what we see in the wider society. Um, but you would have like a gym owner hearing that and be like, yeah, but not my gym, like my guys are nice guys. You know, what what how does how does one navigate that, right? When you're like, okay, I I understand that this is a thing and that it's it's potential is everywhere. What does a like what does a gym owner who's hearing this and they've got, you know, five coaches on the roster, what do they do? Speaker 2: There's a lot of things we can do, um, and a lot of them are really small. Again, the first one I would say, take down any rules that say you can't refuse a roll. Um, and talk it it's about you're responsible for your culture of your gym, right? So if you don't think anything's happening in your gym, and you're just like, we're pretty sound, we're pretty solid. It still needs to be something that's on the agenda with your coaches. It still needs to be something that is encouraged to be spoken about. We need to take it out of the shadows and that's a really, really important piece. This stuff thrives in the shadows. Um, so we need to be talking about it, even when we don't think there's a problem. And we just say, hey guys, you know, this is something that is rampant in our sport. We don't want it in our gym. So if you see anything, if you hear anything, if you're worried about anything, I've got an open door. So you need to be saying that to your coaches, you need to be saying that to your students. Um, if you have a whole lot of women in your gym, think about a women's class. Um, it's not about segregation, it's about giving them a safe space in in a sport where they are very much the minority. Um, and if you do, like we all know, we all know the dudes that are a bit problematic, right? But as we're kind of talking about before with the definition of sexual abuse, it's not just someone screaming no, right? It's the coercion and it's sort of feeling uncomfortable but feeling like you can't really say anything because you're the white belt girl and you've got this black belt guy who's won like five pan packs, and you don't want to look like that girl in the gym or you don't want to have to move gyms because obviously you'd be the one to have to move gyms. Um, like you know who that guy is. Speaker 1: Potentially the culture's telling you that you need to go to him, like do, you know, like you're in a very lucky position. Speaker 2: Yeah. He needs to be spoken to and it's not just, oh yeah, I spoke to him like three years ago. Like if it keeps happening, you have to keep addressing it. And there needs to be a point at which you get to where you're just like, I actually need to ask you to leave my gym now. Like you need to evaluate their behavior and whether you want to risk your business and your gym and it getting out that you've got a dude there who's that creepy dude who does that weird sex stuff on the mat, um, and how much that's going to impact your business. As we've seen, you know, with Atos, I'm sure they're not super stoked about the the publicity they're receiving. Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, they've it's kind of been weird because they've they've kind of played the they're they're kind of media like, um, they're coming back hard. Yeah, like Benny Frot is in his kind of not rolling with the authorities and we'll let it take its due course. And they're like, I'm back coaching every day in the meantime. Yeah, they're like pushing my and so it seems very strange to me that it's almost as if Atos has kind of doubled down like, well, we're not getting rid of Andre, so therefore, well, I mean, you know, in take, you know, shout out to the American listeners, but, you know, look at their president, right? Like, this guy's this guy's a known fucking a known abuser. Yes. And so, and but but his his strategy is go on the attack and it's working well for him. So anyone else that's like, people are coming at me, I'll go on the attack. And it's probably going to work well for you too. Like this is the per the statistics, this is kind of the reality, right? Like just fucking deny. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it seems very strange because, for me, I can't get my head around it because I'm like, I have no idea. I mean, like I said, I've been bullied and I've been physically injured by someone intentionally. And I still those people are still on the list. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: I don't I don't You know, I will I will fly I have a specific set of skills. I will find you. Um, and the challenge for me is like I I don't I don't consider myself abused. But I feel wronged. And I'm like, for like, I want to I want to kill those people. That's not a threat. It's just using the court of law. But but that's the thing. And and I'm someone who's pretty physically capable to defend myself, right? But because of the power structure, I was a purple belt, they're a black belt world champion. I was physically abused. And I still keep that. I still I mean, maybe that's a reflection of my personality. I can't let that go, but I've just like, you know, and so I have no idea what it must feel like to be in a position that you were saying that position of vulnerability of being a woman and being taken advantage of and you're just trying to Speaker 2: He just want to learn. Speaker 1: Well, you just want to enjoy Jiu-Jitsu without putting up this bullshit, right? So, today's show is brought to you by our good friends at Raised Nutrition. Raise the bar. They've got all the flavors. They've got tropical acai. If that doesn't speak BJJ, I don't know what does. They've got salted caramel, which is delicious. And they've also got rich chocolate and roast almond, which goes awesome with coffee. So, if you're looking for a snack to power your BJJ, this is built for you. It's all the clean good stuff without the nasties. Whether you're trying to get some energy before training or you're trying to speed your recovery after. Go to raisednutrition.com and use the code bulletproof and you'll get yourself some free bars. Get it today. I had a I had a a counterpart of ours with the, um, who, um, talking about the allegations made against Isaac. Right. And, uh, I was talking with that with this friend of ours and he's like, yeah, I don't know, man. She didn't she didn't even detail like what he actually did to her. He just she just said that like she was abused or she was a victim. And I was like, I was quite blown away. I'm like, do you take the fact that she didn't want to put the details of the fucking sexual abuse he perpetrated against her on Instagram to mean that she's making this up? Like, that's a like that's fucked for her to have to go through that. You know, like she it's there's no she doesn't she doesn't gain anything from this. You know, and I and I don't and that guy, that friend of ours, I don't think I think he just wasn't thinking and he was just giving one of those kind of really inconsiderate stupid responses, right? Which is where a lot of this I think, unfortunately, where a lot of this stuff falls down to is just like our default kind of dude response. Um, but yeah, I was like, man, like how, you know, like what a naive thing to say, right? Like you've obviously never thought about it. And per Benny Marx, he's he's never thought about, and what if that was your sister? Or what if that was your wife and your wife came to you and said, hey, something happened. I don't want to tell you the details, but like, would you believe her? You know? Speaker 2: And I think that I think there's so many things that go into that. I think part of it is, um, we're really scared of this topic and we would like to think it doesn't happen. So it feels so much safer for us to go, oh, yeah, but it probably wasn't that bad. Like it wasn't that bad. Speaker 1: Deny, deny. Speaker 2: Because then it's not a problem. Right. And like domestic and sexual abuse, it's such a big problem that's so much bigger than any one of us that it feels really difficult to tackle. So it's a lot easier to assume that one person is lying than the foundation of our society is that fucked. Right? Like when we want to think about what's easier for our little brains to deal with, we would much prefer one person to be lying. Like Speaker 1: It's it's there's been more than one person, right? There's multiple people saying I I was assaulted to varying degrees, right? So it's like, well, that shows a pattern of behavior. Like surely Speaker 2: It does, but if we knock them down one by one, then they're all lying and we still don't have a problem in our society. It's just so much easier for our brains to grapple with. But it's also really interesting the way that those comments are said and the way that they're said online. As if Locky said, we expect women who have gone through this not just to stand up and say, hey, I went through this, which is hard enough, but to then give their entire experience, their entire brief of evidence out on Instagram before they're not even it's not like, oh, yes, you're right. It's like, oh, yes, we'll allow you to speak now because we believe that something happened. Um, and we don't do that for any other offense. Like if your car's stolen, someone doesn't go, oh, yeah, but did you leave your keys in it? Oh, but where was your where was your bag? Like, do you facing away from your bag at the time that your keys were stolen and then your car was stolen? Because that would be on you. And like, did you like leave it unlocked? Speaker 1: Were you asking people to steal? Speaker 2: Were you asking people to steal? Like, you know, the question like when someone says my car was stolen, you're just like, bro, that fucking sucks. Did you did the cops find it? Like, did you get it back? Did the insurance pay it out? Were the insurance being assholes over it? Like, we don't question what they had to do with their car being stolen. Speaker 1: Do you think this is a direct byproduct of the court of public opinion through social media? Because I wanted to get into legalities. And in the past, talking maybe 20 years ago, maybe more, certain media outlets weren't allowed to say certain things because it could affect the case. And they also could get sued for, um, interfering with due process. Yeah. Do you think now because of Instagram and because of TikTok and because of social media, a lot of people just make their mind up off I I believe him, I don't believe her, or vice versa. And it has nothing to do with actually that person getting justice or them being able to seek justice. Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%. Um, I think because like there's so much to it, right? Like because of the internet, because of the accessibility of Instagram, of chat GPT, like we all think we're freaking experts on everything, right? And so we get a little bit of information and we decide that we have all of the facts and that we are capable and able to to make this really informed decision. When you actually sit in on one of those hearings and you hear it it's it's sexual assault cases can go for weeks. Right? You hear the mountain of evidence that's put before the court. What's on Instagram isn't even like 0.1 of a percent of it. Like you actually have no idea what's gone into that case. But everyone still just made their mind up. And we still have those restrictions with the media. They have to say allegedly, you know, all those kinds of things. But we have nothing like that on social media. It is such an unregulated space. And then I think we also have these keyboard warriors who are just sitting behind their computer, sort of saying these things that are horrifically hurtful, calling someone who's gone through one of the worst experiences you can go through a liar, um, and just not even thinking twice about it. Um, and then, you know, I don't know what they think that that sexual violence victims are getting. There's no pot of gold at the end of the hearing kind of thing, you know? Yeah. It's it's horrible every step of the way. And most victims that I've worked with at the end of the process, even if they get a guilty verdict, they're just like, it doesn't feel like a victory because I just feel broken. So it's not it's not something they get anything out of. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Um, and so you do you have this court of public opinion and and everybody gets a an opinion and everyone's like we've got this thing about everyone's opinion being valid or everyone has a right to an opinion, as if all opinions are equal. As if someone who has extensive experience as a prosecutor or a lawyer in this space, as if their opinion is the same as old mate who goes to the gym down the road, who works in construction. You know, those opinions aren't equal, but they're still one comment each on an Instagram post. Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's pretty confronting. Yeah. I mean, the statistics, the situation. It's, um, Speaker 2: And I I think that, you know, talking about it in these kinds of forums is just so important and and and I really take my hat off to you both for doing it because it is really confronting. You know, I've been in this space for over a decade. I've also lived in this world as a woman for 34 years. So none of this is new to me. Um, and you know, a lot of the time I'm just like, oh, yeah, that happens. Uh, and I think if you talk to women in Jiu-Jitsu, they'll get the same thing. Speaker 1: It's it's very challenging because I mean, like, so Joe, you know, Joe has a a a wife and a daughter and and we raised by women. I have two younger sisters. And I think to myself, not in my rightest of thinking, but if anything were to happen to my wife or anyone close to me, I would I would plot a murder. Yeah. That's that's my inclination because I'm like, that's the only justice I can see, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not saying that's the right answer. Speaker 2: That's that's where it goes in me, right? Speaker 1: And so it is so tough. I mean, I don't know. There's no good answers, right? There's no there's no way to tie a bow in it. But I mean, like, for you, as a woman, in Jiu-Jitsu and also understanding this, um, subject matter very well, is there anything that you can either give to women who may have been made victims or even just men who are becoming aware, maybe they've seen something and it's not clicked and they're thinking to themselves, what do you think it is a way that we can approach I'm doing this or or or trying to act better to to help make the situation better. What can we do? Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think to to women who are experiencing this, I will always say, I believe you. It was not your fault. And what do you want to do? The power is in your hands. To men who are becoming aware of it, I would say, I get it. I get this is really scary and that you feel super confronted right now and that you would really love for me to give you a super easy answer out. Um, there isn't one. You need to sit with that for a little bit. Um, and get comfortable in being uncomfortable. Um, and now that you are aware of it, thank you for being an ally. And be an ally. Be that dude who all the women feel comfortable rolling with and wouldn't wouldn't second second guess rolling with you. You know, make sure that you check in on your female training partners. You know, make sure that you that you that you talk to them and and that you make sure they feel safe. You know, you get to be an ally and I think it's really important to tell the difference between ally and protector or mat enforcer, you know? You're you're standing with them, you're standing next to them, not in front of them. Um, and I can't remember the last question. Speaker 1: No, I think that's that's pretty good. That's pretty much what it was. Yeah. I think that's a I think that's a pretty strong point for us to finish on. Um, it's going to take some some some motivated dudes and and and active actively engaged, I think, to to really like I can see that the the work to be done is to be like not lazy in your thinking about this stuff. Speaker 2: And it's ongoing, right? And I think that's what's so exhausting. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Is if there was a policy that we could just put in place or a sign that we could just put up on the door and we're done, it would it would be a lot easier. Um, but it is ongoing every day work in the same way that making your culture not a dickhead policy culture, it's the same thing. It's ongoing and it and it never stops. Speaker 1: Um, did you want to share, I know you had some resources. But do you are they specific to this part of the world? Speaker 2: Uh, yeah. So there's there's no global resources. Um, in Australia, we have a wonderful wonderful organization called Full Stop Australia. Um, so they can be reached on 1800 Full Stop. Um, I don't know what they are internationally and they would be different from state to state. Um, but yeah, obviously Google is your is your best friend. But if anything has come up for anyone throughout listening to this, um, please, please, please reach out to your supports, whether that be supports like Full Stop or your support network. Um, because you are not alone in this. There are many allies and friends that are here to help you through this process. Whatever that process is looking like for you. Speaker 1: Dr. Motrum, very much appreciate you coming in to speak with us. Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me. Speaker 1: Appreciate you. Speaker 2: Thank you.