10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt Nathan Orchard (Episode 401)

Speaker 1: What up, guys? Welcome to The Jiu-Jitsu Podcast. Today we have uh Nathan Orchard, a 10th Planet Black belt. I think he's like a third-degree Black belt uh under Eddie uh on the podcast with us. And uh we're going to be getting into, you know, he's a he's a martial artist, a Jiu-Jitsu guy, a Jiu-Jitsu competitor. Um has an interesting story and then we of course, like we do, he's he's a good guy. I feel like this is something maybe I don't know if it's like this happens like uh as guys get older, but you know, men and women get older, but just can follow tangents. So we go off on lots of tangents related to martial arts training. But there's a a couple of really useful tips in it for training. Like we talk about how to like find your like find your game, you know, because everybody wants to do that. And so we get into something that like he says and again, I agree with it. We kind of talk about that a little bit. We there's several useful tips, some good tips for training as you get older, which again, I know a lot of you that are listening to this, not everyone, right? But uh some of you guys are, you know, typically in the Masters divisions or older, right? You're up in there Masters one, two, three and four. And um so forth and they're even five. And uh so again, some useful stuff and some entertaining stuff as well. So hopefully you guys enjoy the podcast and uh let's get into it. Big thanks to our sponsors for helping make the podcast happen. You guys uh can check out Charlotte's Web. They're one of the OGs in the CBD space. They make a lot of terrific products. Um they make a lot of new stuff now besides CBD. They have the CBD, the CBN products, the cannabinoid stuff. They also have some stuff with functional mushrooms, products. Like one of the products I've been uh using is like it's like Reishi and Camomile and some other stuff and it's like you it's like a little gummy. 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Also, thanks to our buddies over at Epic Roll for supporting the podcast. If you guys want to get some new gear, for me, that's like one of the things, maybe and maybe you're not this person, but sometimes if I'm in a slump, I like to go get some gear. I remember me and uh Eugene were out at a uh at the ADCC in 2022. They had that big Jiu-Jitsu Expo down there as well. And I remember um one of the companies that was there, they gave us all kinds of stuff because they were like, dude, we got to ship this stuff back overseas. Like, you know, if you'll wear it in a video or something, we'll just give it to you. And they're like, what size do you want? So they started giving us some stuff. And I remember how excited I was to go put on the new gear. Uh so sometimes it could be like a fun thing to do, get some new gear. I'm sure your wife or husband, if they don't train, they won't be happy about it. But you know, you can you can you can make it up to them, right? Um one of my buddies was like, you know, he's like, if I bring home another gi, my wife's going to kill me. Um because his nasty gis are everywhere and she's having to wash them. But again, if you guys want to check them out, they've got a lot of good gear, a lot of good t-shirts, merch and all that kind of stuff. Pretty pretty much anything and everything you could think of Jiu-Jitsu related. The website is epicrollbjj.com. Promo code is Jiu-Jitsu 20 for 20% off the order. Also, if you guys want to support the podcast that you're listening to, you can roll on over to the Patreon at patreon.com/thejiujitsupodcast. I'm sure you're aware of how this works. It's a it's a membership thing that you can then support the podcast with and in return, we give you some different perks and offerings and things like that to say thank you. And so we give you some blessings for saying thank you and we appreciate um you guys for supporting us and joining the Patreon. And you guys, if you want to, you can go to the website. It's very inexpensive. Again, it's nothing crazy. Um but if you listen to the podcast and you enjoy it and you'd like to support it, you can do that as well. Also, thanks to uh or not thanks to anything. Thanks to me because the next one's going to be my website. Sorry, I just jumped in. Thanks, Chewy. If you guys want to get my daily email, you can do so by going to my website at jiu-jitsu.net/join. And when you join up, uh it'll take you to the uh the the page there and then you'll get my daily email. And at the same time, you'll also receive an ebook and a video that goes through some ideas on Focus Jiu-Jitsu, which we talk about this and this idea of intentionality on the podcast later on with Nathan. So kind of listen to that part. But this idea of intentionality is is part of being focused. It's so key if you want to get better Jiu-Jitsu. Um there's so many different ways to manipulate everything about Jiu-Jitsu and um your training and all that stuff. And you can do it even if you're just doing it during an open roll. Like Nathan will talk about that during the podcast, right? And so um this is a whole a book and a video that literally just goes through that. It's just talking about here's how to figure out some different ways to manipulate your rolling to be more focused, to be more intentional with your training and to get more from the training. Um and there's a lot of different ways you can do that and I give you some ideas. About 12 different ideas on how to do that. And I go through it in video or ebook form. So if you don't want to read, you can watch. If you don't want to watch, you can read. Uh jiu-jitsu.net/join. Let's get into this podcast with Nathan and uh appreciate you guys for listening. Speaker 2: So bro, how did you get into um how did you become a 10th Planet guy? I'm curious because like, you know, again, I um I don't know if you started elsewhere. I just know that from the time I sort of started knowing some of the 10th Planet guys, I admit I had I had always heard your name getting brought up, right? Like obviously you have sort of a a a move, the Dead Orchard that's been dubbed, you know, from you, right? Which is always cool if you get a name you get, you know, it's always cool like, you know, that's that's part of our naming system. We have the Kimora, the Ezekiel, the De La Riva, the Darce choke. You got the Dead Orchard. And um but like how did you become a 10th Planet guy? Were you a 10th Planet from the beginning or did you get started afterwards? Speaker 2: No, yeah, I I had uh 21 MMA fights before I even found 10th Planet. Yeah, so I I had a deep career. I mean, you know, it was all amateur MMA, but I went 14 and 7, did all that and and then and I wrestled as well. And then uh, you know, I was just in a little town and I Googled how to get a blue belt. And the first thing that popped up was uh uh a forum on the website, the 10th Planet, you know, 10thplanetjj.com. And it was like the criteria of how to get a blue belt. Because I knew nothing about Jiu-Jitsu. In fact, when I I didn't know that the gi had anything to do with Jiu-Jitsu. I didn't I was not aware because I was just like an MMA guy, wrestler, dude, you know. And so uh yeah, so Eddie Bravo, you know, he had you know, had his criteria, which at the time was to get 15 matches uh of you winning using 10th Planet technique/wearing 10th Planet clothes, throwing the gang sign, whatever. And uh and submit those those videos and you could get a ranked. And so I was like, all right, this is like what I got to do. I started doing that and along the way, I I mean, I got noticed and I and I actually the match that got me my blue belt was uh against a really good guy, Mike Do It. I mean, he's a 10th Planet homie, but, you know, it got me on Eddie's radar because I tapped him with what is now called the Dead Orchard. Back then, we didn't have a name for it, right? And so uh did that, posted it on the forum, you know, and Eddie's like, damn, he made a video right then and there. Nathan Orchard, you're, you know, change that white belt status, you're a blue belt, just online. He waved the blue belt around. And I was like, holy shit, like I just got my blue belt from Eddie Bravo. Like, I could die happy, you know what I mean? And uh two weeks later, I went down to HQ and uh I trained there for two weeks and he ran me through the wringer, dude. I mean, he really tested me and put me against I had seven test matches. One of them was against Geo Martinez. He was one of my draws. But um out of seven matches, I tapped out, you know, five dudes and some of them were brown belts and I walked away with a purple belt, you know. So I was a I was a blue belt for about three weeks or so and then purple belt. And you know, so again, I just kind of like found 10th Planet and was adopted in/ you know, brought myself in, you know, I wanted to be a part of it. It seemed like my people and uh and so it kind of went from there, man. It's crazy. Speaker 1: Did you did you have any like like like any sort of formalized grappling experience while you're doing these MMA fights or is it just like you and some buddies get together and Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just a wrestler, you know, I wrestled in high school. And uh that was it, man. I yeah, we watched the UFC and I was like, okay, I figured out a triangle choke and arm bar. They're pretty simple, really. I was like, oh, I got to throw my leg over dude's shoulder. Okay, whatever. So and and RNC and guillotine, you know, pretty simple, right? So, yeah, I had my first 10 matches, my my first 10 MMA fights. Dude, training basically out on my front lawn with buddies, you know what I mean? Speaker 1: What time period is this? What year is this? Speaker 2: This so I actually had my first MMA fight in 2004. Okay. And I was 16. Uh so that's, you know, and then I didn't I I lost that. I got arm barred. And that was actually where I was like, oh, what's Jiu-Jitsu? You know what I mean? And so I had never really I didn't know anything about it except for like the early UFCs. You know, and then uh uh yeah, so again, I was just training with my friends and none of them even you know, a few wrestler buddies, but some of them were just like, let me try moves on them and they'd just try to I don't know, just kind of fight me without fighting each other for real, you know, and Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And then I finally, you know, I I actually got pieced up by a better striker and that's when I was like, okay, well, I guess I better go learn how to strike now. You know, did all that and yeah, so I got the whole striking, you know, I I I kind of backed away from grappling for a few years and just I was just striking, you know, learning to punch and kick. Actually, come to find out and I didn't really know this at the time because my coach didn't put a big emphasis on it, but I was learning HapKiDo. You know, and so uh people would go out or I'd go fight and they'd be like, oh, you're a karate guy. I'm like, what? I'm just I'm just punching and kicking. Like, I don't know what I didn't know the difference. I'm very I was very ignorant to everything. It was just what I knew and uh so it turns out I'm a karate HapKiDo guy. Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you know, back then too, 2004, because I started I wrestled and then started Jiu-Jitsu and sort of competing in Jiu-Jitsu in 2003. I had my first fight in 2006. The the time period, so we're old guys, right? You know, old guys born in the back in the 1900s. Um, you know, the the uh it sounds so old when you say it that way, doesn't it? Um, but like the the world that we lived in was far more, you know, you were far more insulated wherever you were because you didn't have this sort of like, I mean, you had stuff on the internet, you had obviously you had forums. Speaker 2: YouTube was not out in 2004. Speaker 1: That's it. YouTube was 2006, right? So it's like or 2005, late 2005, 2006. And you didn't have like um, you know, the the your phone, smartphones were out. You weren't being constantly fed this drip of information where people could share things. I mean, back then, instructionals. Speaker 2: Instantly, dude. Speaker 1: That's it. I mean, instructionals, I remember I had them. They were on DVD discs, you know, you had to like, you know, for those of you that are maybe young, you would like, you know, that you would pay for them and they would send you in this thing called mail where they would actually arrive at your doorstep and you you had to wait a couple weeks because Amazon didn't have next-day shipping, right? So like, it was just a different world. So it was it was far like when you wanted to learn something, this kind of goes back to it. You think about that like, okay, you wanted to learn something. It was like one of those Kung Fu movies where you had to go to the guru, the master, the the knowledgeable person. You had to go to them to find the information. It wasn't just like, hey, we've got a whole course outlining everything for you right here. You had to go seek them out. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: In person. Speaker 2: Yeah. It was it was it was like a treasure hunt, finding that good information. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And collecting, you know, new things and whatever and and now it's like, man, guys are just getting injected with the best stuff day one. And oh, it's a completely different world. Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1: People are a lot better. I I think they're a lot better. Like blue belts are way better than blue belts were back, you know, 10, 15 just the evolution of it. Um, you being a wrestler, but then like developing the Dead Orchard, how did that come about? Like that's totally, you know, you're playing off your back, you know, pretty much uh Speaker 2: I never said I was a good wrestler. Speaker 1: Well, wrestling was your base, right? I mean, Speaker 2: Yeah. I you know, okay, again, to kind of like out myself for how ignorant I was to anything Jiu-Jitsu related. Again, I knew nothing, right? And so I actually thought that Jiu-Jitsu meant guard. Like when I was a kid, I was like, okay, I have guard. Okay, now I'm doing Jiu-Jitsu. Everything else was like grappling or wrestling or or fighting, you know, I didn't know what Jiu-Jitsu truly meant, you know? And so, so that's the thing. I was like, okay, well, I got to do Jiu-Jitsu. I'll do this guard work. I'll learn arm bars from my back, you know? And so, you know, just that and and, you know, I again, I am flexible and long and so it does fit my style and uh, you know, again, like Eddie Bravo, not wanting to get hit in the face for MMA. It's like, okay, cool, like, you know, I wasn't even doing rubber guard back in the MMA days. I think I had had my last two fights after I'd found 10th Planet. So most of my career, I didn't know rubber guard actually. But, okay, it was when I saw Nick Diaz get a gogo plata, right? And that's when I was like, oh, okay, well, how do you get a go what's a gogo plata? What how do you do this? And that of course brought me down the Eddie Bravo rabbit hole, you know. But uh yeah, again, it was just like being a wrestler, I still I thought that to arm bar people from my back was Jiu-Jitsu, you know? That's kind of how it went that way. And then of course, you realize, oh, you can do it from back mount and mount and all these things, but the first time I ever saw it was just closed guard, you know? Speaker 1: What was the process of developing that move? Like to actually figuring out that's a move you made or created? How did it come about? Speaker 2: Yeah, so so I was actually doing what uh, you know, back in the day, we'd go, I don't know how familiar I would imagine you're pretty familiar with rubber guard or at least a little bit. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, some familiarity with it. Speaker 2: Right. Okay, so it's like mission control and then if you can't zombie, you go crackhead control, right? And so from there, we'd we'd do the pump and then we try to get our deep hook and toss to spider web. Well, when I would do the pump, so again, mission control and then just throw the second leg up, crackhead control. Try to pump those elbows in to get a deep hook. Well, I would just naturally it would just slipped on, honestly, the the the figure four with both arms in. And I actually did it for a while before I realized I was doing something kind of different or like I it was honestly an accident, you know? But then I I was even hitting it in competition, still not fully aware of what I was doing, you know? And then people pointed it out and I'm like, you know, oh yeah, I guess that's okay. And I started putting it together and how it made sense. You know, but but the the the thing is, you know, it's like um the first Dead Orchard that has been recorded that we're aware of, I believe was in an early UFC. Like way early. And but past that, you know, no so again, it was kind of a one-off, right? And then I started hitting it and other guys were hitting it too, but, you know, it's like have you guys heard the uh the hundredth monkey theory? Speaker 1: Mm-mm. Speaker 2: I haven't. Okay, it's so it's like you got a bunch of monkeys on an island and there's, you know, I guess this was a real thing, you know, where they had to teach these monkeys like to wash the coconuts or something, get the radiation off or something weird like that, yeah. And so they taught some monkeys and then these monkeys that they taught would go teach the other monkeys and it got to a point once there was like a critical mass, monkeys on another island started washing their coconuts. Right? Or or I'll put it like this. You know, we used to think that it was impossible to run a four-minute mile, right? Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Okay, until someone did it. Speaker 1: Two weeks later, someone else does it. Yeah. Speaker 2: Right? And so it's like Speaker 1: That's happened with so many records where someone says this is impossible, someone does it and then someone else goes and does it right afterwards. Speaker 2: That's right. And I think there's something to just believing that now, oh, I've seen it, so now I believe it. But I also think there's something about like a collective consciousness. We can tap into things at the same time. And so once it becomes more in people's consciousness, the more people are going to do it, even if it is seems disjointed, right? It's like some dude in Texas was doing it or whatever, you know? And so it's just that I was hitting them against really tough dudes, really consistently and it just by chance, Eddie, you know, attached my name to it, you know? And then and then and then, you know, what really solidified, I feel like, was uh because, you know, it felt weird having a name a move named after me. Like that was just it felt weird. And I wouldn't have called it the Dead Orchard. I would, you know, whatever, but it's an honor. Like, don't get me wrong. Speaker 1: It's also a good it's a good name, right? So like, you know, with the the naming system that, you know, Eddie has sort of uh, you know, helped create for the the whole thing, it's it's, you know, it's it for anybody that doesn't know, the 10th Planet stuff, it sounds bananas, right? You're like, what the hell are they talking about? Crackhead control, you're going to you're going to slap a samurai, whatever, you know, like it sounds ridiculous, but but but Dead Orchard, that's like just it's a good ring to it. Speaker 2: It fits, right? Yeah. Yeah, it fits. So anyway, you know, again, I I I hit it in EBI 2 against Barry Yoshita. And that's when I was like, okay, I'll I'm cool with my name being attached to it. I just I just took out a a legend with this move. And and and I don't know, I believe this must be accurate because Kyotera told me this. Um, he goes uh he goes, dude, it wasn't just so crazy. I mean, Kyotera told me I was the first person to tap Barrett in Nogi. And so that's why it was also like a big deal, you know? And and I didn't really I wasn't not aware of that again when it happened. So anyway, after that, I felt better about uh attaching my name to it. I was like, cool, I'll I'll wear this. Speaker 1: Um, people were wanting to, you know, discover their game, right? Because, you know, when we get started, we understand that eventually, if we keep training and, you know, all that stuff, typically we're going to develop a certain game style that is going to be ours, right? That it's some sort of hodgepodge mixture of our experience with our coach's experiences and tutelage and so forth. And then we kind of have this sort of stew that's our own, right? A little bit of this, a little bit of that, here's our style. For you, how much of your Jiu-Jitsu that is sort of like your your A-game, your like go-to stuff is sort of was intentionally added into it? And then how much and again, this is obviously, you know, good luck giving it a super accurate percentage, but just kind of going off of your best guess. How much of it do you think is by sheer accident? Like you came across this move or you found this thing or you went to this seminar and some guy gave you this, like, oh crap, this is amazing. How much do you think is intentional? How much do you think is kind of accident in your game? Speaker 2: I I would say much, much more of it is accidental. Um, you know, like I I I think I think one of the most intentional parts of my game is my Kimora system. That's something I've very like early on in my career studied, like studied Kimoras and developed Kimora, I would say Kimoras were like maybe my first, well, I mean, besides like maybe rubber guard and and uh the lockdown, you know, but Kimoras, right? I mean, for sure, that was like a big big huge part of my game for a long time. It still is. You know, and and so that was intentional, but a lot of it is accidental and, you know, like I'll do something and then I'm like, hold on, what just happened? And and then I'll do it again and again and again and then, you know what I mean? It just kind of goes from there and it's it is interesting how information comes to it. One of the things I don't know if you guys ever read um uh The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. Speaker 1: Yeah. I've it's it's a book I've I've read that book like, gosh, probably 12, 13 times or something. It's a good book. Short read too. Speaker 2: Game changer. Short read, easy, right? Game changer for me, though. And and and one of the uh one of his one of the parts he says um that you need to like clean your space so that the muse doesn't dirty her gown as she crosses the threshold. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And and so like I feel like if there's anything intentional, it's just creating a a space for inspiration to come through. But inspiration it can be totally random. But if you don't intentionally set space for inspiration, it doesn't come as easy. So, you know what I mean? Like there's a certain amount of intention, but again, it's like, dude, Jiu-Jitsu travels through us, you know? I mean, we can't it already exists, every bit of it. We're just discovering it and integrating it. So we can take very little credit, but um again, we're it's like weird how our bodies are just so made to do it, you know? It's almost it sounds like a crazy thought, I know, but like it's like Jiu-Jitsu was a concept and then the human body was made to fit that concept. It works so magically and like a puzzle that it's like, wow, this is uh I mean, again, it's it's magical to me, really. Speaker 1: Well, I mean, grappling, you look at just grappling. Like every pretty much every sort of civilization that's existed for the most part had some sort of fighting art, right? And, you know, because obviously we have to fight, you know, humans as much as we whatever, fighting is to be to be a human is to fight, to learn how is part of it. It's part of us, right? And wrestling, grappling is a huge part of that. And, you know, you see these different modes of of doing it. And, you know, a lot of times if you start to go into different arts, like you can go look at catch wrestling, you can look at traditional uh Jiu-Jitsu, you can look at Judo, you can look at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. You see these different things and you start to see the same moves being overused over and over again. They just change them to the rules, right? Um, Speaker 2: That's right. Speaker 1: And to your point about that, like with the accidental thing, I asked that because I've always experienced this and I feel like a lot of the people that I know have too, where it's like sometimes the intentionality comes sort of after the accident. So for me, it's like as an example, I might I remember going to a seminar back in like 2000 and maybe it was 2006, 2007. And the coach was there showing a particular type of half guard that I had never learned before, right? And was showing it. I was like, oh, and I used it and it instantly I was able to wrestle up and use my wrestling. I was able to sweep. I was like, oh my God, this just feels really good. This is amazing. So then I started teaching people how to do the three things that I knew how to do from the position and then I intentionally like went down the rabbit holes, finding any half guard stuff I could and studying people that use the position, rolling from position over and over again. And then going back to your thing from The War of Art, right? Like through the intentional practice, then all of a sudden I started figuring out stuff on by accident again and you're like, what what the hell just happened? How did I do that? Hey, stop real quick. Let me go back and figure that out. It's like this sort of uh this dance between, you know, accident, intention, accident, intention, right? Speaker 2: That's it. It goes back and forth constantly. Yeah, that's that's a good way of putting it for sure. Speaker 1: How do you create that um that training environment to promote that creativity? Like what what does that look like in your training, um or even just in your gym? Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, what you know, one of my things is uh it's actually been a while since I have run a school. I mean, like two within a year and a half, I left uh Seattle almost two years ago. But before every single class or at least 99% of them, I sweep the floors. You know, I hate hair on the floors. You know, and not just the mats, but like, you know, the concrete floors and I so I'd go and sweep and I'd vacuum. And so literally cleaning, you know, that's a huge like intention setter for me. And and it was also a good way for me to just kind of like, you know, shake hands with everyone who's there that day, you know, and kind of make my rounds while I'm cleaning the floors, setting my intention, getting myself ready to go. So, um and and so that's when I'm teaching class and when I'm doing my own personal sessions, exact same thing. I always clean my space first. Now, I I clean the mats afterward, right? But but still, there's always something out of place. There's always something that could be cleaned off the mats in the environment, you know, right now I'm I while I'm building my school here in in Pleasant Grove, I'm just training in my garage. So it's just like, you know, there's constantly a mess to clean up and so I always just make it a little bit better, make it a little bit better. And uh yeah, cleaning my space, you know, our our external environment mirrors our internal environment, right? So it's you know, there's science behind like clutter is bad for your brain. It just is. You don't function as well when there's this chaos. And and I'm speaking generally, maybe some people love chaos. I don't know, but I think that order and cleanliness, like, man, you look at some of these dojos in Japan and they're just pristine and simple. And it's like, boom, now the work now it can come through, you know? Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I know even for me, like, um, if I'm in the middle of say some sort of work-related project, some sort of marketing campaign, developing some some new course, whatever it is, like something. A lot of times my like stuff heats up. Like like work gets really busy, the pace gets a bit frenetic and a lot of times my office starts to as you said, mirror that. Like stuff's kind of strewn about. I have papers out. I have stuff going just whatever. And then I know that whenever I get done with something, then I always make this intention of like, all right, I got to clean this we just we just had this particular competition, this thing just launched, this thing for the gym just is finished, whatever it is. Let's clean everything back up. And like clean it all up, tidy it up, make it look nice. I'll take a day out to do that. And I know that how like like you said to your brain part, you mentally feel better, you know? And and, you know, I remember back in the day training in gyms where it was just kind of like a kind of a dump. You know what I mean? Speaker 2: We've all seen it. Speaker 1: Yeah. And there's something about it where it's like it's it's cluttery, it kind of it messes with you a little bit versus you go into a nice, you know, relatively clean, nice gym that's kind of put together. It's um it's relaxing to a degree. It kind of puts you at ease that you can then do whatever it is that you're going to do to your credit to your to what you're saying to your point. Speaker 2: Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, it's uh yeah, got to have a nice clean clean art studio because we are doing art, you know? So and and there's something to be said again, I like, you know, about I actually just read a thing about um like military guys that after a mission because our brain needs closure. So after a mission, you like do your paperwork or whatever, you pack your bag, you clean your shit up, you close down what you did too. So there is, I mean, look, it's starting and stopping, you know, if we can learn to really define these things and like uh, you know, what's his name? Josh Waitzkin on uh that wrote The Art of Learning, right? He talked about um uh what was I saying about about starting and stop? Oh, oh, uh it's like he would create these cues that meant he was about to go do his certain thing, right? And so it's like one of mine is to like chew a certain gum. If I'm chewing that gum, that means I'm training, you know what I mean? So like these like triggers. Like what would that be the the not the Pavlov. You know, what's the one guy that did an experiment every time he he rung a bell, uh he would give his Speaker 1: Pavlov's dog. Yeah. Speaker 2: Pavlov's dog. Yeah. Okay, that's what it is, right? It's just like tricking your brain into getting into that mode, you know? Yeah. That's part of it. Speaker 1: Yeah, you're you're triggering that that you're you're there's um what did they call that in like the book by Charles Duhigg? It was called uh basically a habit loop where there's something that initiates, it triggers the habit to to start. The habit happens and then there's some ending to it that then is considered agreeable or pleasurable and then like you repeat the process, right? Um whether that's chewing gum that then has a ends with a great training session, you feel great about it or you kind of get a hunger pang and you go to McDonald's and you get a burger and eat your number two, you feel great about it. Um, and also too to your to what you're talking about like it's it's nice to have a clear beginning, middle and end in a in a situation because I I looked at your stuff, right? And your gym is like Alchemy, alchemical, right? Speaker 2: It's Martial Alchemy. Speaker 1: Yeah, and you think about that like during sort of traditional like ritual-based practices, they talk about them sometimes as like being hermetically sealed. In that moment, they're they're closed off into there's a beginning, there's a point where we create heat because heat is where we transform and then there's a cooling down process and then there's a closure to it. And you think about that, we have that every day in the gym when we train, right? You come in and you there's some sort of initiation, hey, we're beginning this thing, you begin the thing. And then when you're done with the thing, there's the heat, the training, you're pushing each other, you're being frustrated, you're, you know, sweating, whatever it is, right? And you're experiencing those things that come through that. And then there's maybe ideally you have some sort of process to cool down. Maybe you're talking to your bros, you're cooling down, talking about what happened, maybe you're stretching, whatever it is. And then you have that ending, you're walking out the door, this clear closure of that, all done, right? And then you come back and do it again, pop your gum in and get ready for a training session. Speaker 2: You know, and and to bring up hermeticism, that's also how every day and every year goes, right? Like you go, you start with spring or the morning time, it's kind of cool and it's kind of nice, ease into it. Then slowly the day heats up. You get to the heat of the day and you go through the thing or you get summertime, right? And so it's like everything, you know, as above, so below, as within, so without, you know, it's just like the day mirrors a year and a year and a day mirror a training cycle, really, if you want to try to make these parallels, which I think you can because that is the process of everything, right? So if we then become intentional about it, we can probably make it stronger and more effective. Speaker 1: Well, because then you can go back to it and going back to the original point, right? Um about intention, you can then go about it with the intention and you can sort of harness that that natural energy, that natural ebb and flow. And even sometimes understand it, right? Because if it if we were saying it all mirrors it, there's periods of our day, there's periods of the year, there's periods of a training session that are meant to be coming down, meant to be cooling down, meant to be like, hey, like let's back off, right? And in a society like our own, right? Like we sort of only we only sort of value in some cases one side of that coin, which is the push, the hard, you know, the the the forward intent energy. And like sometimes we have to back off and it's bad in Jiu-Jitsu because a lot of times it's like just go, go, go, go, go until you burn out, until you get injured versus like, hey, we got to naturally, we have to have this ebb and flow to it. So where there's the hard push and there's the recovery, there's the coming down, letting the mind and the body recover so that we can come back and get after it again, just like there's day and night, there's up and down, you know, and so forth. Speaker 2: I mean, and the the the the Yin and the Yang, right? I mean, just you have to recover as much as you're putting out, right? Essentially. So it's like I don't know, it's crazy how I I wish people like here listen, young young guys out there, learn to take care of yourself when you're 20 and don't wait till you have to take care of yourself because you're now 35, 40, 45, you know what I mean? Like learn that early, but we don't we don't learn to take care of ourselves while we're young and strong. We just only push, right? And so it's just like, dude, get in rhythm with the natural cycles like you're saying and it'll definitely keep you younger longer at least, you know? Speaker 1: It's hard in Jiu-Jitsu because we don't really have seasons like a like a sport. Uh you know, you have a preseason, you have in-season, then you have post, you know, post-season, things like that and you have kind of the time off to recover and and kind of rebuild, right? And some people I think started have kind of started having more seasons like I'm ramping up for Nogi type season and we're going to do some training. We have some competitions coming up. So that's kind of something you have to almost intuitively do, right? Especially as you get older, it's a it's not really you're kind of forced to do it because your body can't keep up, right? Speaker 1: This is something I think about like a lot of people have this, especially if you're especially as you get older, it kind of has to be part of this. Your training and your lifestyle, I don't really consider those two different things, right? Because people sometimes they'll do these things where they'll like they'll put in their two hours of training or whatever it is, you know, a couple times a week, few times a week if they're just sort of a casual about it. And then they'll go home, they'll have poor sleep, boozing up every night, they're eating bad food, like doing all these things. You're like, and then they'll go back to training. Like, well, these two things are sort of opposed to one another, right? Like, like the thing should be also be supporting one another. You know, your training can support your health, but we've got to take care of this, which if you get all this stuff into check, your diet, your sleep, all these things, then you're going to have better training and it's going to it's going to fuel each other as we go through it, right? And I think sometimes when people like you said, kind of look at it as like, I'm going to get ready for a competition or something or a fight. You see it a lot in MMA where guys completely fall off the wagon. Speaker 2: That's right. Speaker 1: They don't they don't typically have long careers. Like you look at some of the best fighters like like, you know, a great example of this is George St-Pierre. The dude was just a consummate martial artist. He was always training. No matter what. And also too, the nice part is like you're saying, then if it just becomes a part of your lifestyle where you're always kind of keeping this pace where you can maintain, I mean, I'm sure you've probably had tons of competitions and matches where you probably took them on short notice, but you were just kind of in shape already. So it's like it's not that big of a deal. You're not in peak performance, but you probably go out and do just fine because you're always keeping that that edge sharp. You're always staying in pretty good shape. Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, I'll say this. I've I've taken second place in EBI and Combat Jiu-Jitsu, I think either five or six times. Speaker 1: So you heard you were the you were the Craig Jones before the Craig Jones, right? Craig Jones of EBI. Speaker 2: I want to have a match against Craig Jones and whoever loses actually wins because they're the true champion of second place. I want to have a fight with Craig Jones to see who's best at uh losing, you know what I mean? I'll be the champion. No, but you know, it's like, okay, so yes, I have done fairly well. Never been the guy. And, you know what? I've had to make peace with that because egoically, who doesn't want that, right? But I'm I'm down to be second place if I'm living a well-rounded, healthy, holistic lifestyle. You know what I mean? Like I wouldn't I wouldn't trade being the best to be to be lopsided in life. You know? Speaker 1: Because there's a cost to that. Yeah. Speaker 2: There is compromise. Yeah. Exactly. And so it's just like, you know, that's fine. That's fine. I I understand like I'll never be an ADCC champ ADCC champion. I'm I still might have another shot to become a Combat Jiu-Jitsu champion, you know? And uh because I I believe I'm going to do the next one at 155 whenever that comes around, but but uh yeah, I mean, it's just like, what is worth being the very best? And uh, you know, again, we all just have a different path and I've I've come to enjoy and appreciate mine, you know, for sure. Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of guys like where you read their biographies, you know, and, you know, you can respect them for some of the stuff that they've done and you can listen to some of the lessons being told, but, you know, for me looking at them, I'm like, you know, like I remember reading uh Steve Jobs's biography by Walter Isaacson. And I remember like reading it and there's some really cool stuff in it, really interesting ideas and stuff, but, you know, you can't help but look at him like, dude, you bailed on your kid. Like, you you bailed on your first daughter, right? Like to like, you know, and I don't know, because it's like later on in life, he really regretted that. You know, and so to me, it's like going back to it, you know, like you're saying, okay, I'm not going to be this thing, but would you want to be an ADCC champion at the expense of, well, I was never there for my kids and my wife. And, you know, whatever. I mean, like that's that's obviously some people can make that exchange if they wish. Um, but I'm I'm with you on that regard. I would rather have a lifestyle that I really enjoy versus I climb the ladder and get this thing, you know, that that I thought was going to mean something so much to me when in reality, when we look at what is most important to humans and when they do all the studies and what actually builds happiness, um, you know, it's not the attainment of this one single goal because there's always be another goal instead it's the relationships we build, the friendships, family, um, having purpose in life, those sorts of things. Speaker 2: That's right. I mean, I've I've been a black belt for 12 years now and eight of it, I've been married and and had kids. And um yeah, and so it's like I'm actually it's pretty amazing I've done as well as I have because I've run a school the whole time. The entire time I've been, you know, I I I opened my school uh my first school in uh 2000 and 13, I think. I think 2013 and as a purple belt. So the whole time I've been a teacher, you know, and then most of the time, I've also been a husband and a father. So I think it's pretty damn impressive what I've done to tell the truth, you know? I've never like had a coach. I've had people I've learned from, you know, like Eddie Bravo. He he is he's my teacher, but I've never lived near him. He couldn't coach me per se, right? So everything I've done has been, you know, I've never I've never had a coach. I've always done it all myself. I've had a support team and great friends and family and and training partners and all that, but like, man, I I've done it all, you know, self-directed and self-motivated. And so to take that many second places, yeah, second sucks, it hurts and uh but but also, I've had again, I'm I've come to be proud of myself for making it as far as I have with the tools that I have, man, you know, I've done pretty good. Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you're a pioneer in your area, right? So if you if you didn't have a lot of options there, right? Like you sort of, you know, you got to work with what you got, but um I I'm sure, you know, you made it easier for a lot of other people who came afterwards, um who had a better better ability to take every information because they actually had a coach to work with. Speaker 2: Yeah, someone actually recently asked me, they said, do you think do you think someone could do what you did like, you know, be training in your front lawn, getting good at all these things? And I said, why would they why would they want to? Don't. Don't try to do it on your own because I had to do that and I didn't know any better and so it's cool. But like, hell yeah, like go learn from people that know more. Go get a coach. Like it it sucked to just or maybe I could have gone further. I don't know. But uh, you know, no one's got to do it alone these days, right? So it's just like, man, yeah, use the resources around you. Don't be stubborn, all that, you know, but Speaker 1: How did you keep those things? I don't want to say balanced, but how did you keep all those things kind of in check? Being able to devote enough time to family, being able to run your school, to learn yourself, you know, to keep yourself in good shape and healthy enough to to train and compete at a high level. How did you try to kind of keep all those things in some type of order? And what was maybe your process for like if something was out of out of order, how did you kind of right the ship? Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely trial and error. You know what I mean? Like I definitely, I mean, look, if you don't balance yourself, you will be balanced by life, right? And so there have been times in my life where I've definitely gotten lopsided in one direction and, you know, as soon as something starts to suffer, you know, that that that's it. That's what it's like, okay, hold on, you know? It's like I say this, like energy doesn't lie, okay? And the energy will tell us, okay, this isn't doing good over here. And I know it sounds like maybe metaphysical or something when I say energy, but it's like, you know when your relationship is in trouble. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: You also you feel it. You feel it. You can feel it. You can also feel when you're when you haven't had maybe healthy lifestyle choices and so it turns out to a different performance on the mats, right? So, so, you know, actually um the worst, the low, the lowest low of my life and of my career, I would say was just after COVID, uh it was 2022, I believe. And dude, COVID COVID just messed with me, you know what I mean? It messed with a lot of people. And Speaker 1: Well, you were also in you were in Seattle, right? Speaker 2: I was in Seattle. Dude, I was in ground zero. Speaker 1: So you guys were getting hammered. Like as far as like by the authorities and stuff like that. Like Speaker 2: It was crazy. I mean, I had people like like old students freaking turned me in for continuing to train, but, you know, I had to feed my family, you know what I mean? And whatever, dude, like that was a whole messed up deal anyway, but like it took a it took a toll on me and I was I again, was I let myself get out of balance in certain ways. And uh, so EBI 19, it was like the return of EBI. But dude, I was not living like a good martial artist at that time and uh and it showed, you know what I mean? I went out and had like, I feel like the worst performance of my life and it crushed me. It crushed me because I loved EBI so much and I was such an honor to be a part of it and to it was the first time I ever lost in the first round, you know what I mean? And against a guy that I feel like I should have beat, even though he's really good, whatever. Like, dude, and and so it was like one of the darkest nights of my life. I was just like so disappointed in myself and all this. And so I I made changes, you know what I mean? Like I saw the writing on the wall and I was like, you know what? Fun isn't better than it doesn't outweigh feeling like shit about a terrible performance. Period, right? And so it's just like, you know what? Dial back on the fun. Get a little more disciplined. Be a little more, you know what I mean? But like again, it was like it was just weird in Seattle, like I said, after COVID and just like I saw my I didn't see myself uh I didn't realize that I was doing what I was doing until, boom, I got hit in the face with a terrible performance. And then I was like, all right, all right, I see what's up. Time to change. And I did. And so fine. And I learned a lot from it. And so that's cool, you know, but it did hurt. Speaker 1: Those are necessary lessons, though, right? Those are the ones that wake you up and kind of make you make you want to change because that feeling of uh disappointment or just not living up to your potential can kind of haunt you and honestly makes you makes you want to change so much. Speaker 2: That's it. Not living up to your potential, that is terrifying. That's terrifying. That's what terrifies me to be on my deathbed being like, damn it, I didn't really try or I didn't really there's this thing that I loved and I didn't develop it for whatever reason. Like that freaking scares me. And so that's why I do so many things. Like it probably drives my wife crazy, you know, because like, you know, I I like I I collect hobbies and skills because I feel like I'm here to have as many experiences as I can and learn things and and use my body and use my abilities and develop everything I can. And so like I'm weird about hobbies. Like I do so many things and uh but but I feel like it all actually comes back to Jiu-Jitsu and martial arts for me. Like it's crazy how like I'm learning the guitar right now. I have a really great teacher. And all of a sudden, because I've learned Jiu-Jitsu, I can learn the guitar better. And then I see the lesson they they they feed each other, right? And everything does. I'm also like just kind of weirdly obsessed with disc golf. Disc golf is a crazy you think it's just throwing a frisbee. It's not, you know what I mean? Like when you see a dude throw a 500-foot throw or whatever, it's just like, how did you do that? Because I don't know if you guys have ever thrown a disc. Like Speaker 1: I have. Yeah. Speaker 2: And if you don't do it right, it just it just goes 25 feet and then falls and turns. Speaker 1: It's it's different. It it's deceptively way more difficult. It's just like it's the same thing watching someone hit a golf ball, right? You're thinking, I can just go knock this thing and then you you put all your muscle into it and the damn thing just like it it it basically bounces off the ground about 25 yards and it's just stops there. Speaker 2: Yeah, completely, right? So it's just like it's so fun for me to develop myself and my skills and my body and my mind and everything just kind of feeds each other, you know? Speaker 1: Yeah. I I you know, that's one of the things I uh I started writing, learning how to ride horses uh some years a years ago with my wife because she grew up with horses and so we got into them. And or she got me into it. And I remember, you know, very much like first off, it's fun. I don't know about you for is a is an instructor, as a coach. It's like fun to go back and like feel like you're the beginner again. Like, God, I don't know what the hell I'm doing and like I'm like thinking this is how my beginners feel. Like when they first come in, right? Like kind of puts you back into those shoes. And it also it's one of those things where it's not frustration, but it's a feeling where like just we were talking about this at the gym the other day. You can almost you can look at something and even if you don't have an a really good understanding of what that thing is, you can recognize skill when you see it. When you when you watch someone play a guitar and they're just going up and down chord and you just watch their hands move so effortlessly and you hear the music they create. You can't help but say, man, that's amazing, right? Or if you watch a Jiu-Jitsu person where you watch how fluidly they move and you're like, God, that's beautiful. And then like, you know, if you're a new person coming into Jiu-Jitsu or riding a horse or playing guitar or whatever, and then you try, you know what your body's supposed to do and you can like, I'm going to make this happen and then you try it and obviously it doesn't happen. And you know what skill looks like, you know what quality looks like and you're unable to replicate that and then you have this like friction in the beginning, right? But I remember having that with like when I started riding horses, that same thing where you're like, whatever and then your brain goes back to Jiu-Jitsu because you have that skill that you developed, you're like, oh, this is just going to be the same process that we went through before, no big deal. Speaker 2: Big time. And and like you say, man, it's good to like sucking at the guitar is like, oh, okay, this is how people feel when they come into Jiu-Jitsu and they're like not an athlete and they first start. Like it's it's hard to push through that. And so it is good to be like humbled and remember what it's like to struggle to learn something because now Jiu-Jitsu is so like second nature to me. I have to like bring myself down from the clouds to like reverse engineer and teach people stuff, you know what I mean? Like I'm way out in the ether with it and uh and so I'm like, why why is this hard for them? But then it's like I watch someone play the guitar like a master and then I try and like, what? I'm with me. Yeah. Speaker 1: That's so it's tough for sure. And then um what's a weird hobby that maybe you picked up? Because like guitar is not super weird, but what's like maybe something that's super weird that uh that you've picked up? Speaker 2: Well, I mean, to to honestly, disc golf to me was weird because when I first saw it, I was like, these nerds. You know what I mean? And then I tried it and I was like, oh, this is incredibly hard. And I didn't think it was cool until again, I saw someone throw a 400-foot freaking laser of a disc and then I was like, wait, that's a weapon. And then once I saw it as like a martial skill actually, that's when I really got into it. But I mean, like, you know, I mean, I think not that anything I do is that weird, but like I do mess around with like all of the weapons, okay? Um, so like I kind of one of the weirdest weapons that comes to mind is a is a shepherd sling, you know, like David and Goliath, right? Like Speaker 1: Oh, okay, neat. Like a sling. Speaker 2: A sling. A shepherd sling. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Speaker 1: Oh, cool. That's neat. Speaker 2: Yeah, and and so that's like a weird thing. And another is a rope dart. Speaker 1: Bro, those those slings, like I've watched people who like really know how to use them. My God, bro, that's like terrifying because they can just take a rock, sling it and throw it. And I mean, you've got this bullet like going across the the uh the sky and I mean, if it I was a kid, I got my lip sliced in half by a rock, right? So and that was just by a guy throwing it, let alone some dude that's generating some velocity with it. Speaker 2: Dude, and and it's crazy because it's such a simple piece of technology, right? It's like a a rope and maybe a little leather pouch or something like that. And no, you're right, man. I mean, it it makes a person be able to throw three times further and three times harder with a third the effort. You know what I mean? It's it's a wild one. So but it it's it's not that easy, right? And so that's an obscure one. And then uh uh a rope dart like um if you guys seen a rope dart like swinging like a heavy ball or a knife on the end of a rope and how you can like swing it and kick it and fling it off your elbow and things, yeah. So that's something I've developed and gotten decently good at and um I'm better than the average at nunchucks and you know, so whatever, you know, a lot of martial uh things and um uh you know, again, disc golf right now, guitar, but you know, I've I've like I said, I've got two there was a there was a time I had a student who was a a metal bender, okay? And he would compete in bending metal and and and tearing uh books in half and all these crazy things. And so for a while and someone stole this. Speaker 1: Was he super yolked up? Speaker 2: Dude, not not really, but so crazy strong and it was just weird how so so you have to qualify like to be on a certain list of metal benders. I can't remember what it's called. It's called like the red or something. But it's like a six-inch certain strength of steel and you have to bend it to a certain degree to be put in this and there's not very many people in the world who are on this list, right? So for a while, dude, I was like into bending nails and things, you know what I mean? But that's crazy, but yeah, so I'm always just dabbling in something or another. Speaker 1: Interesting. I've got to ask this because we're all from the 1900s. What was like a Speaker 2: Um, gosh, you know, I thought we were going to be open by November, last November. So we're already behind as far as I'm concerned, but um right now I'm I'm really projecting May 1st. By May 1st, we should be fully operational, ready to go. And we're here in Pleasant Grove, Utah. It's about 45 or so, depending on traffic, minutes south of Salt Lake. And uh just like 15, 20 minutes north of Provo, which is where BYU is. So yeah, it's a nice little area and we're we're right off the freeway. I mean, easy to get to and um it's going to be a super clean, nice facility. I'm crazy excited for it. Speaker 1: That's cool, man. Awesome, brother. Well, appreciate you for being on, man. Good luck with the the gym opening. I know it's a big deal and good luck with the match coming up and hopefully you'll get to a chance to test out the new moves. Speaker 2: Thank you, guys, man. I appreciate it and uh thanks for having me on. Speaker 1: Hey, bro, it's been a pleasure. Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Speaker 1: All right, guys. Thanks for listening to the podcast. Hopefully you enjoy it. Hopefully you got something from it. Maybe a little tidbit, a little bit idea. Um as I tell people, you know, I tell people a lot, right? When you when you're listening to people, um explain different ideas out, whether you're listening to a podcast, an audio book, uh YouTube video, whatever it might be. A lot of times thoughts are going to come to you, right? To me, and this is just my bearded opinion, of course, which I think is a correct one as well. When you guys are listening to that stuff, even when you're reading a book, when an idea comes to you, your idea is to nail down that idea. Like what is it that's that this means to you? What idea came to you versus like I've seen people where they want to like take exact notes or whatever. You don't want to write it down like that because then you you don't even remember anything. But put it into your own words. Like what does this mean to you? What do you think you could do with this information? So if you listen to this podcast and maybe this idea of rolling with no submissions as an example, maybe I think I could do that. Maybe I could you can write that down or you can write down your notes or you can think about what that means to you and then implement that in your next session or the next time you're like reading a book, you know, like write in the margins. Like I do this all the time. Like if you ever read ever see a book that I've read, it's like it's got dog ears, tabs all over it. And if you open it up, there's just stuff all through the margins. That's so you can kind of remember it better. You can understand not just what it said, but like what it said meant to you, right? And even if you go to the gym, if you're watching a technique and you're trying to take notes from a coach or whatever, don't just like try to regurgitate what they're saying. Try to think about explaining whatever it is in a way that you can remember in your own words and what this stuff means to you, right? So, um that's just something that's I find that useful. That's a completely sort of off-topic thing, but I think it can be useful for anything if you're listening to the podcast because ideally, we try to like sort of find a balance between just some entertainment value, getting to know this person, but then also too, try to get a couple of useful ideas. And there's several good ones in this podcast if you listen closely enough. Uh but again, hopefully you guys enjoyed it and got something from it. And if you guys do enjoy the podcast, I always encourage you to send us a message and let us know. Um you can if you can review us, if you're on like a like an iPod thingamajig or whatever, the uh iTunes or Apple uh no, it's podcast. Podcast, right? Apple. Well, it's on Apple, right? It's like something like that. Whatever it is. If it has an ability for you to review, if you want to give us a review, we'd appreciate the hell out of it. Um share with a friend, whatever. Uh but again, even sometimes it's just it's helpful to like know who's on the other end because there's no comment section, you know? There's no comment section. Well, there is on YouTube, so maybe if you're on YouTube, there may be a comment section. I think I think uh Spotify may have it too. Does it? Yeah, I think so. Maybe they added one. I didn't know. They can comment on Spotify. We don't have video on Spotify. We could put video up there. Maybe we do that. Uh but anyway, you can always send us a message at jiu-jitsu podcast@gmail.com and you can let you can send over to you and let us know how what you think about it. But guys, with that said, appreciate our sponsors for helping make this podcast happen and helping bring our bearded voices to your ears week in, week out. Charlotte's Web.com. 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And one simple way is to start giving yourself very specific tasks and goals. And there's lots of things that you can do. I give you but 12 different ideas in that book and the video. So in case you don't want to read, you can watch. If you don't want to watch, you can read. But I give you 12 different ideas on how to do that. And so you get better better quality training. You get more from the training. And again, then afterwards, you'll get my daily email, which you can unsubscribe from at any time if you wish. And I will not spam you, although I will send you a daily email. So I will never sell your information to anybody else, but I will email you daily with something I think might be useful or entertaining to you. Um and so guys, with that said, appreciate you all for being here. Hope you had a good time listening to the podcast and as always, that's it. I don't know. As always, nothing. I don't I don't know. Like there's maybe I could just I could use my my daily email. As always, guys, that's something to chew on. You don't need that little the little quipy little witty saying one-liner, yeah. Well, I mean, it works great in the emails. I've just got an idea to chew on, right? Get it. We can always end with a poem. That was nice. That was like a great way to cap off the podcast. Good. Or like a little little little quote, like a stoicism or Oh, we could start. It could be like a little I'm usually coming across a good quote. Yeah. Okay. Maybe you ever um Well, then I'll have to I'll have to remember it. So we won't do it this week because we just gave you guys a pretty good banger. So like, I mean, the uh banger. If you guys read your Kipling, that that that if poem, it's a great poem. You should read it. It's like it there's some really good versions of it on YouTube that are read by like sort of raspy, deep voiced narrators. Like, hello, my son. You know, like where they're like this that that deep like just it sounds so epic when it's being read by that versus, hey, guys. You know, like you know what I mean? Like um but so there's some really good versions of it done online. Uh but really, it's a great poem. Um that's one of the ones where like in one of my my journals, it's like I printed it and like stuck it into one of the pages, you know? Just to kind of go along with it. But that's a good idea. We should start ending with quotes and ideas, some some little little little thing to chew on at the end of the podcast. I'll start doing that for my readings. I'm reading every week. I always get some info. Yeah, maybe like a like a line or two or something that's kind of stands out to you. I can do that. We'll do that. We'll do it. We'll do it next time. All right, guys. So, with that said, that's something to chew on.