The Invisible Heart of BJJ (w/ Valerie Worthington)

Speaker 1: Hello everybody. Welcome back to Fighting Matters. I am Steve Kwan from BJJ Mental Models and I've got a long-time friend and collaborator and dare I say jiu-jitsu legend on the podcast. She probably won't want me to say that, but that's okay. I've got Valerie Worthington, Valhalla on the line. Valerie, how's it going? Speaker 2: I'm good, Steve, and thank you for that, and you need to get out more. Speaker 1: I do need to get out more. How do I go about getting a cool nickname? Speaker 2: How do you go about getting a cool nickname? Um, let's see, uh, you spend a lot of time on online forums before there is such a thing as social media, and you name yourself after a geek company. Um, I actually went between Valhalla and Valkyrie because my name is Valerie, and I went with Valhalla because at the time there used to be a geek company called Valhalla. So, then you meet people that you got to know first online, you meet them in person, and they only know you as Valhalla, so they sometimes don't even really remember your real name. Um, and so then thus thus a nickname is born. Speaker 1: Thus a nickname is born. Well, for people who don't know the lore, uh, why don't you give yourself a quick introduction? I am constantly amazed at this, you know, this influx of young people in the sport who don't know anything unless it's happened in the last three years. So, tell everyone a bit about yourself and your jiu-jitsu history. Speaker 2: I'd be happy to. I've been training jiu-jitsu since 1998. The, uh, the length of time is not necessarily commensurate with the skill level, but the love is still there and has been for a really long time. And I found jiu-jitsu when I was in graduate school, actually. I had gotten pretty sedentary my first year, and then I decided that I wanted to, um, become more active. So, after doing a couple marathons and trying some things that maybe were more traditional or more within my usual purview, I tried Muay Thai. So, that was, my joke is that that was my gateway martial art, and at the Muay Thai gym, they also had jiu-jitsu. So, I saw people doing hip escapes and judo throws and rolls and things like that, and I thought, those people are crazy and I need to do that. And then, as often happens with people, at least that I know, who do jiu-jitsu, I got more and more into it, um, and it became more of a more of a, um, a cultural fit for me or a cultural influence, and it started to take up more and more of my interest and my time and my identity. So, um, I competed back in the in the tens, I guess, in the in the aughts and the tens, um, because I didn't want to be afraid of competing, not because I had a real competition bug. And now I'm happily retired, and I live in Philadelphia, and I train at, um, a gym that I just love. I get to teach there. The, I get to contribute to the the environment and the culture there, and, um, I guess the, if if there's anything that I'm quote-unquote known for, it's that in 2006, I realized that other than Brazilian jiu-jitsu, I was pretty unhappy in my life. And in that way, jiu-jitsu was sort of a double-edged sword. So, got to the point where I couldn't stand my life, um, enough that I quit my job and sold the home I'd been living in and bought a car and drove around the country training jiu-jitsu. And that was in 2006, and, um, wow, so, yeah, 20 years ago this year. And my life, I sort of think about it in terms of like before that trip and after that trip. And since that trip, I've been able to, I hope, use jiu-jitsu as a way to help me craft a life that's more true to me and that helps me be the best version of myself I can be. Speaker 1: And like, um, our fellow Fighting Matters team member Jeff Shaw, you are what I would call a real professor in that you actually teach stuff to people that's not just arm bars and omoplatas. Um, what's your education background as well? Because I think that's going to tie into the topic here. Might as well put it all on the table. Speaker 2: Sure. And also shout out to Jeff Shaw because he is amazing. Um, and so my educational background is I have an undergraduate degree in English literature. So, I was one of those people who, you know, drank whiskey and read novels. And then I have a doctorate in educational psychology. And then I, um, and like you said, this may come come into it, I started investigating health and wellness coaching because as I started to rise through the ranks in jiu-jitsu, students would ask me questions that didn't have to do with, um, with training and technique. And I wanted to be able to help them, but I didn't presume to know how they should live their lives. So, I have certifications in health and wellness coaching, and most recently, I've become interested in animal welfare. So, I recently got a certification in feline behavior and training. And, um, at the university I teach at, which is called Saybrook University, they have what they refer to as a humanistic perspective. And I'm in the Department of Mind-Body Medicine. I actually got the job in part because of jiu-jitsu, because that's my mind-body practice, and they when they were hiring me, they said, oh, you know, we don't have anybody who does martial arts. We have we have massage therapists and we have dancers and yogis and but we don't have martial artists. So, um, so jiu-jitsu was was a way for me to kind of get my foot in the door there. And I teach healthcare ethics. I teach in the integrative wellness coaching program that we have. I teach research methods and, um, do I teach anything else? That's about it for the moment, but, uh, um, I'm also learning more about how the department runs because I, um, am a stickler for punishment. Speaker 1: That aren't we all? Would we be training jiu-jitsu if you weren't sticklers for punishment? Well, thank you. Well, thank you so much for the intro here. And those who have listened to your prior chats, especially those that you've had with me on BJJ Mental Models, know that we often get into the kind of cultural and sociological side of jiu-jitsu when you and I chat. And you have some great ideas about things that, you know, you know, cultural concerns and things that are happening in the sport today and what we as practitioners and teachers and coaches can do about it from an actual semi-informed perspective. I'll maybe turn it over to you. What's the thesis here? What are the things that you wanted to talk about? Speaker 2: What's top of mind, just given what's been going on with, um, with Atos and with sort of the ongoing problem that we have with, um, instructors and environments that are not particularly safe for everyone, um, with the kind of radicalization, it seems, of the jiu-jitsu culture. I think the thesis here is there are really good people in jiu-jitsu trying to do really good things. And and those people and those things are overshadowed by the fact that that those people are just quietly doing those things. They are doing the right thing because it's the right thing. They're not trying to get attention for it. They're just trying to do some good in their own little corner of the world. And it's it's a shame, I mean, and shame is a very, um, uh, you know, uh, it's not the it's not a strong enough word to explain, um, how unfortunate it is that that is the case. That what we hear most most regularly kind of in popular and social media these days about jiu-jitsu is the bad stuff, and there's a lot of it. And there are a lot of people who are doing really good things and being really kind and putting out good energy into the world. And wouldn't it be nice if we could hear more about them and if we could create a synergy among those people? And I know that that's one of the one of the things that you're committed to doing, which I love to see. Um, and I just would love to support that and build on that. Speaker 1: I I love that. That is something that resonates deeply with me. I feel the same as you. I mean, if from an outside observer, if you look at the way that jiu-jitsu is covered, it really does look like this hideous toxic place. And that is a that is a part of it, right? I mean, we we wouldn't be doing this podcast if not for the fact that we've got problems in the sport that need to be addressed. But the reason why we talk about this is because we care about the sport. And if you care about the sport and you've made it a part of your life, then you want to see it be better. And that's that's why it's important to talk about this stuff, shed light on this stuff. But that shouldn't take away from the fact that, as you said, the vast majority of interactions you'll ever have in the sport, the vast majority of people doing this, are doing really good work. I mean, I I, you know, in in many cases, maybe they're neutral at worst, but there are a lot of people who really use jiu-jitsu as a platform to do good stuff as well. The issue, of course, is that when bad things happen, they touch so many people, and they're so abhorrent that they rightfully get a lot of attention because we want to put a stop to this. But like with so many things in life, we are biased towards focusing on the the scary things, the anomaly, the the negativity. And we always have to bear in mind when we hear these terrible stories of sexual harassment and abuse and all of the other toxic stuff that happens in jiu-jitsu, it it does happen and it happens way more than I would like, and it's a real problem. But we shouldn't let that take away from the fact that there's a lot of people doing good work in the sport too. And how do we honor and celebrate and promote that while also combating the more negative elements of the sport that we're committed to defeating as well? And that that is kind of a difficult balance. What are your thoughts on this? Because I really I really resonate with this idea you're talking about about kind of trying to move forward and bringing light on the positivity of the sport and bringing people together rather than just reacting to the bad stuff. Speaker 2: Couple things are coming to mind. The first one is, oh, I don't know if you can see, I have, um, my friend Pork Chop is a foster cat that I'm taking care of, and she just she was just in the, yeah, her name is Pork Chop. So, if you live in the Philadelphia area and you're looking for a beautiful 16-year-old sassy lady to adopt, that's sorry, that's my shameless plug for Pork Chop. Um, so a couple things come to mind. And one of them is, I guess both of the things that I'm thinking of, um, have to do with the fact that there's a difference between between acting on your own and acting within a within a structure or within a within a culture, within an institution. So, my, um, my own kind of journey with jiu-jitsu was greatly enhanced when I got to Saybrook University because I was able to tap into a a university of people who were asking the same questions I was about what it means to be a good person and what it means to be connected to, um, the rest of the world and and how to be a force for good in the world. And it wasn't just me sort of fumbling through. It was me, um, having the opportunity to connect on a regular basis, not only with individuals, but with a culture that supported that. And I don't know exactly how that translates into the jiu-jitsu world, but wouldn't it be nice if we had like a, um, a like not a a hall of justice, but like a bunch of a bunch of jiu-jitsu superheroes, and the superheroes are the ones who are quietly doing the right thing. What if we were able to get like a Justice League together or and and there could actually be people who are doing that already. It's it's challenging when you when you are trying to live your life and, you know, trying to be a force for good in the world, but you also have to take the garbage out. So, the thing that I call that kind of existential whiplash, like this I I want to be doing good in the world, and I'm also exhausted sometimes and I just want to eat snacks. So, so I guess to the to kind of, um, pinpoint it or to to put it in sort of, uh, um, concise terms, there are levels to doing good. There's the level that each of us does individually, and then there's our, you know, our immediate community, and then there's the larger community. And I feel like in for those of us who are trying to do good, I like to put myself in that category. I feel like I I have a handle on myself, and I'm constantly committed to my own, um, development. I have a handle on being able to make a commitment in my immediate community. What I don't have a handle on is how I can make a commitment to kind of that broader context, that broader institution of jiu-jitsu to to move the needle. Speaker 1: Do you think the solution is more organization? Because I've heard this proposed before. I've heard people say that maybe we need governing bodies or, um, committees that are responsible for something, right? For for not for policing behavior, for enforcing good behavior, for setting a global code of conduct. But there's also a lot of pushback on that because people don't want more organization in jiu-jitsu. I think many people are drawn to the fact that it is kind of a wild west and it's still very independent and evolving. Do you think that going with that solution that other sports may have gone with, having like a a governing committee, is the solution or could that cause more problems than it solves? Speaker 2: Yes to both. I think I think both are true. I my take on it is, um, we we want to consider doing something because what we're doing right now isn't necessarily it's not getting us where I I would like to see us, which is to say that you could walk into any gym in in any part of the country, any part of the world, um, and feel safe and feel like you are welcomed. Um, what we're doing now as an institution, as a sport, isn't getting us there. So, I I've thought the same thing. What if we what if we became a profession like, um, other professions? I so in health and wellness coaching, actually, it's been interesting to be a part of that. I started to become a health and wellness coach in 2016, and you may hear a lot of people even nowadays call themselves a, you know, um, a a sports psychology coach or there are lots of different kind of cuts on what coaching is. And people can call themselves a coach without having to go through any sort of certifications. And, um, in some ways, that's great because I'm sure there are people who are providing a lot of, um, a lot of, uh, uh, benefit, but there's also no consistency and there's also no way to kind of predict what's going to happen. So, I came up, and I know you did too, in during the times when jiu-jitsu was the wild west, and, you know, this was back in starting in '98. And there was something really exciting about that and something really wonderful. And there were also there were also problems. So, I don't I don't know if there's any one single answer. What I do think is that we need to be we need to be throwing something at the wall to see what sticks, um, recognizing that there's not going to be a perfect and there's not going to be, um, a solution that's going to make everybody happy. And that any changes we make are going to have some, um, some unintended consequences. I know that's a non-answer. The reason is because I respect how, first of all, because I'm hedging my bets, right? But the second reason is because I do respect how passionate people are about jiu-jitsu, how, um, complex the situation is, how complex the sport is, and how rapidly it's growing, but also how young it still is. Speaker 1: I think of how business and the corporate world have tried to solve this problem, and that is by instituting things like human resources, HR teams, so that if there is a problem that happens, an interpersonal issue or worse, then there is an escalation path. There is somewhere that that can get reported to. And it I think it's good that these things exist, but anyone who's ever lived in that corporate system knows that HR is really ultimately not there to be your friend. They are there as part of the institution and to protect that institution. And if push comes to shove, if they've got to choose between you and the business, they will choose the business every time, right? I mean, I so although there are solutions that have been adopted institutionally, the challenge that so often happens is that people working within those institutions will be biased towards protecting those institutions, and it can take on a life of its own, an agenda of its own, um, a political culture of its own. I mean, you think of something like FIFA, right? Where, yeah, they have they have codes of conduct and a lot of stuff, but they also have a lot of problems with things like corruption because once an organization gets big enough and powerful enough, then it has its own agenda, and who's policing it? And I do wonder if we were to create sort of a governing ethics body in jiu-jitsu, which is one of the proposals that I hear going around, I mean, it does feel like it would be better than nothing, but would we wind up in that situation where it develops a a mind of its own and an agenda of its own and becomes maybe a a hurdle to actually making progress instead of an accelerant? Um, I don't know if there's any truth to that, but it's just a frustration that I have seen working in corporate. I always have to remind people, like I know that when something bad happens, your first inclination is to go to HR, and often you should, but you all always must remember that HR is not your friend. They are employees of the company that you have a grievance with. And forced between you to choose between you and the company, they will choose the company every time. I mean, yes, I'm sure they have flyers up about how much they care about their employees, and there's a lot of lip service paid. But if you come to them with a serious grievance that puts legal risk on the business, they will protect the business. Um, what do you think of of how we solve for that if we were to try to provide an ethics layer over the sport? How could we prevent it from corrupting itself and taking on a life of its own? Is there anything that you've seen work anywhere that would be a maybe a solution to that? Speaker 2: Oh, wow, that's a really good question. And I agree with you 100% about how sometimes sometimes these things can backfire, right? Because, um, people can say, well, we have this articulated code of ethics, so we're covered. Um, I haven't seen anything that has fixed the problem or is a magic wand. One of the things that I commit to doing, that I try very very hard, and I'm not perfect at this by any means because I have blind spots and I have biases, um, but one of the things that actually two things come to mind. One of them is to, um, empower the individual. So, you and I came up in the time, you know, during the time when white belts were seen and not heard. White belts were viewed as sort of cannon fodder, right? So, you don't say no to, uh, an upper belt that who wants to train with you. You have to take your lumps, and that's just what you do. And that's just one example of of sort of that hierarchy. So, one of the things that I think is important is to, um, and this is my this is my personal bias, this is how I teach, is, yeah, I'm a teacher, but I'm a person, and so is every person who's in the room with me, and they're choosing to be there. They have autonomy, they have agency, they have they have right the right to be treated with respect. So, one of the things, um, that I think is important is educating the individual in terms of, um, what's okay, what's not okay. The other thing that comes to mind is that we're not we're not an environment where it's safe to necessarily ask those kinds of questions and maybe to fail forward. Um, we we have a tendency to sweep things under the rug, right? Like a lot of like a lot of, uh, um, you know, HR departments do when there are problems. So, it seems like the the core issue is how do we make it how do we make it not safe for people to do terrible things, but how do we make it safe for people to ask questions and for people to, um, who are interested in improving, who are interested in being autonomous and in being forces for change to, um, admit shortcomings, to admit fears, to admit weaknesses, that they that they perceive to be weaknesses because we don't eradicate, um, biases, we don't eradicate, um, false opinion false beliefs or false data unless we shine a light on it. Speaker 1: That that's actually an interesting thing because again, coming up in the, I guess, the older days of jiu-jitsu compared to where we are now, um, so much of the conventional wisdom that everyone buys into is really just adages and slogans that got passed down from instructor to instructor. And up until the last few years, I would say there hasn't really been a movement to make jiu-jitsu truly science-based, which is kind of funny because it is a sport that has always advertised itself as being the thing that's proven to work. It's empirical, right? We train jiu-jitsu because we're a bunch of smarty pants who care about what works. But the the sport has still fallen trap to a lot of the same, um, you know, kind of like folk wisdom that we so often criticize the other TMAs for. I mean, there's a lot of a lot of slogans and stuff that you'll hear instructors throw around where when you unpack them or actually Google them, you realize, oh, there's no evidence behind this thing that my instructor is saying as as advice. So, I I agree with you that there is this challenge about bringing truth to the sport and and keeping instructors honest. And that makes me think maybe the issue here is is education. Um, I mean, I know that you and I have talked about this. I wonder how much of the problem with, um, some of the the the way that things are handled in the sport comes from lack of preparation on behalf of the instructor. Most of the people I know who got into jiu-jitsu professionally, they just love the sport. They're not particularly qualified in any way beyond that. They're not coming in with, you know, a I don't know, like an MBA. They're just a person who loves jiu-jitsu, and they want to do jiu-jitsu for the rest of their life, and the way that you monetize that is you open a gym. So, they opened a gym. They did not ever envision there would be a time when criminal activity or something would happen within their gym, and they get blindsided by it, and now they've been they've got to figure out a solution, right? Um, and I wonder sometimes when you hear up these horrendous responses from gyms and you see you see the way that they respond to things like abuse allegations under their umbrella, and you think, how could how could anyone respond so stupidly to something like this? I mean, how much of that is just they never envisioned this and they got blindsided? And could that be fixed by educating them up front, that like, hey, this this could happen to you one day, right? If you run a gym for long enough, there will be a time when someone gets harassed at your gym, or there's going to be some really nasty personal interpersonal situation, and you're going to get dragged into it because or there's going to be mat bullying or something like that, or, um, someone's going to take liberties and someone's going to get injured. Like, no matter how good you try to run this place, when you have new customers coming in the door, you can't always guarantee that they're going to behave the way that you expect them to and you tell them to. So, what do you do when things go wrong? Um, do you think there's value in education and resources? Is that maybe a solution that we just provide more stuff for coaches so that they know to expect these problems? Speaker 2: As I was listening to you talk, it occurred to me that, you know, we were talking about the downside of a professionalization approach or a professionalization movement. And what you're describing to me is an example of what the upside might be because if there is a shared understanding, a collective wisdom about some of these issues, then, um, I I think that there I think there is a there there. And at also as you were talking, it occurred to me that, um, not we're not only asking people who are black belts in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, who who open gyms, who just love the sport and just want to be around the sport. We're not only asking them to police these sometimes really really serious matters, but like you said, they're running a business. They are serving as marriage counselors. They're serving as financial advisors. And they may not even know that that's not something that they really should be providing. They may be thinking to themselves, well, people are asking me this. We're at my we're at my school. I'm the teacher. I guess I'm supposed to know these things. So, understanding what an appropriate scope of practice is. I I actually so, while we're talking, I'm thinking to myself, you know what? I teach a a course in healthcare ethics, and there are lots of concepts there that that could be brought to bear here. So, what what do you do when there's scope creep, when someone is asking you a question that doesn't have to do with Brazilian jiu-jitsu? And like I said, that's why I became a health and wellness coach because I wanted to help people, but I I can't tell you if you should get a divorce because your spouse doesn't like you training. I can't tell you if you should quit your job so you can train more. That's not appropriate for me to say. But but maybe not everybody thinks the way I do, and maybe some of these some instructors are thinking, wow, if that's if they're asking that of me, then I should really know the answer to that. So, yes, I think I think an education in terms of what what a a jiu-jitsu professional is. Maybe has anybody ever articulated that? I don't know. I don't know if anybody has ever articulated what that is. And I know you'd probably get 100 different answers if you asked 100 different people, but but maybe there's some there would be some benefit in in doing that or in setting expectations both for the instructors and for the people who are coming for training. Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that that kind of info, I don't know how you could really regulate it, and maybe you can't, but even just to provide more of that information and more of that education could be helpful. Um, people wind up out of their depth so quickly in things like this. I mean, as a as a podcaster, right? I'm well aware that my people, the the male podcast demographic have caused potentially irreparable damage to society at this point. And again, a lot some of these people are probably malicious, but I think a lot of them are not. Just you create a podcast with your buddy, and next thing you know, you've got a million followers. What do you do about that? How can how can one person who just got into this for fun be be aware of all of the implications and ramifications that come with having an audience, um, and people who really care about what you say and take it to heart? And I think the same thing happens in jiu-jitsu gyms. Um, a jiu-jitsu gym instructor, despite the fact that there's really no no rational reason why your jiu-jitsu coach should have any power over you, ultimately human beings are not entirely rational creatures. And when you get into a room, and there is this established hierarchy, and we all wear symbols of the hierarchy around our waist, and there are very physical consequences to everything that happens where people are beating you up, and the goal is to get better. This almost becomes this weird bubble where the rules of the real world don't apply anymore or don't matter anymore. And I've I've found myself falling into that trap. I remember when I first started my first jiu-jitsu class, just without even realizing it, I was falling into all of these weird patterns and expectations that I would never allow anywhere else in my life. But for some reason, I just I'd bought into it that jiu-jitsu is somehow different, and this is just what we do here. You know, right down to the weird things like when you get a new belt, you know, you get hazed, and everyone gets a chance to beat you up or whip you or throw you or do something, um, or, you know, bowing to people on the wall who you don't even know who they are, but you're told they're really important, and you have to bow to them. Um, I mean, man, I I was told to bow to some folks on the wall when I started, and I went along with that. They didn't tell me much about the backstory of these people. If I'd known then what I know now, I would not have bowed to those people. Um, so it it's weird that there's almost this like reality distortion field around martial arts where when you go into the gym, all of your rational thinking just gets left by the wayside, and you become very susceptible to influence and and peer pressure. And and even people out in the real world who are very strong and determined and, you know, rational, they fall victim to this too. Is is there a reason for that? Is there a reason why this seems to happen to it? It's like there's something in that about jiu-jitsu that turns our brains off for critical thinking, and we just kind of become these little bees that follow the coach around. Speaker 2: I so so many things are coming to mind. I, um, one thing I I will answer your question. I think it's a great question. Um, I wanted to mention, um, you were you were talking about how there are some people who kind of don't know what to do if someone comes to them with a question they can't answer or if they get attention they weren't expecting. And that's one example of how we spout some of some of these adages that we don't actually live up to. So, for example, leave your ego at the door. How many people do you know who really leave their egos at the door? Because if we were leaving our egos at the door, we would say, you know what? I don't know. I don't know anything about finances. I don't, you know, I I don't know. But we don't make it safe for for, um, for ourselves to to to do those things. One thing that comes to mind is just human development theory. So, I I think that as we as we develop more in in any context, we become more savvy in that context, right? And and also the honeymoon period wears off. So, when I first started jiu-jitsu, I was like, oh, you want me to you want me to bow to I'll bow to a lamp. Like, I don't care. If you as long as you keep feeding me that sweet, sweet jiu-jitsu, I'll do whatever you want. I mean, within reason, right? But I was like, okay, yeah, I'll wear I'll wear, um, you know, a patch. I'll, um, I'll I'll go and cheer everybody on at 9:00 in the morning, you know, starting at 9:00 in the morning at a tournament, and I'll stay until 7:00 at night because I'm having fun, and I want to be around this. And what and I'll speak for myself, but I think there probably is some research that, um, that, uh, supports this because there are tons of developmental theories. But you you develop more of a of a of a complete understanding of a context, right? So, um, you might you might say it as, you know, as you progress throughout the throughout the belt ranks, you get a better sense of how the sausage is made. And sometimes that's not pretty, right? So, maybe the bloom comes off the rose a little bit, but that's not a bad thing because as you progress through the ranks, you can you can realize that, yes, I I choose to do this. I choose to to to do this every day. I choose to do this for years, and I see the warts and all. And what that enables me to do is try to address those and try to try to make that better. I've heard people describe, um, their relationship with jiu-jitsu, their long-term relationship with jiu-jitsu as like a marriage. So, you have the honeymoon phase where you're just like any and there's a there's a there's a song. I can't remember who sings it, but the line the lines are, anything you ever said is brilliant. Anything you want to do is fine with me. And that's sort of the honeymoon phase of jiu-jitsu. And then as you continue, you have to decide, all right, am I going to continue to put in this work? Am I going to continue? And you're going to have bad bad phases. Someone's going to not be nasty to you, or you're going to, you know, have an injury. And so over time, things even out a little bit. So, that you, like I was saying, get a get a more complete picture of what it means to live a jiu-jitsu life, and it gives you more data, um, that in my opinion has enabled me to to have a more a deeper and truer and more genuine love for jiu-jitsu because I see more of what it is and and what it can do and sometimes the bad things that it can do. Speaker 1: It's tricky because in today's society, everything is basically driven by attention, right? Attention is the currency that everyone's going for, and we live in this algorithmic world where if you want to promote your business, you need attention. And that means that you need to play by the rules of that algorithm. And that usually means it reinforces drama, negativity, shock value. These are the kinds of things that are going to get clicks and engagement, and that's going to be how you get rewarded. I've I've been very shocked to see that over just the last few years, like take a look at, um, you know, go go to a news channel that used to be quite respected for shooting it down the middle and look at the way they they've changed. And you'll notice that even a lot of the major news networks right now are using what I would describe as as clickbait headlines. Like, you know, they do the thing where stuff is in all caps. They'll say, you know, like, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez destroys in all caps other person. And, you know, it's just nothing is normal anymore. Everything is ratcheted up to the extreme because that's how you get attention. And that is part of that is human psychology, right? We are drawn to the novel, to the extreme, to the things that are different from what we are we expect to see. No one talks about the routine good stuff, right? I mean, my one of my buddies, Josh McKinney from the I Suck at Jiu-Jitsu Show. I didn't really know the details of it, but apparently he and his dad have been like running this foundation using jiu-jitsu to support, you know, um, impoverished children in Haiti. They've been doing this for years and years and years. Nobody talks about that. Everyone talks about some random athlete who did some crappy thing, and, you know, that that really is is just going to impact kind of like a small portion of that community. Whereas there are people who are making really big differences, and it just kind of flies under the radar, like you said. Um, what what can we do to fight that natural urge we have to focus on the negative and the shocking, and instead to reward the good behavior? How can we do that? Speaker 2: Use more capital letters. Um, Exactly. Exactly. Mean people hate hate them for this, you know, one reason. Um, it's a it's a fantastic question, and I I think there's, um, I mean, what's coming to mind for me is the is the addictions literature. There's so much there's there's so much compulsion. There's a lot of compulsive behavior around social media, around media in general, and that is a really tough thing to fight. And like you said, it's titillating to see, oh, you know, this person got arrested, or that person is having beef with that other person. That's really interesting as opposed to, yeah, I went to class. It was a really great class. Nobody raped anybody. And it, you know, and then we went home. Like, that's and even me saying, like, nobody raped anybody. Like, you wouldn't say that. You'd just be like, yeah, you know, how was class? It was great. I learned really cool things, hung out with really good people. The end. There's no there's no story there, right? Um, so maybe maybe the the way is to just sort of, I don't know, if we if we take this idea of the of the story. What is the exciting clickbait story about being a kind and decent person in jiu-jitsu? Speaker 1: I have wondered if maybe there needs to just be a focus on good news jiu-jitsu media, right? Like a a news outlet that is just here is cool stuff that's happening in the jiu-jitsu scene. Like, this person raised $10,000 for some poor village somewhere in the world, right? I think that would be amazing. The thing is, though, I'm well aware that from an algorithmic standpoint, that would not be rewarded. So, I think if this comes down to what we as practitioners can do to maybe move the needle because we cannot rely on the rest of the world incentivizing what we want to see. If we just leave it up to Meta and Google and TikTok, they're going to reward the most inflammatory stuff, and that will really bury all of the good things that are happening in the sport. So, maybe we can provide the incentive. Like, what can we do as practitioners to support the people who send the right message? And my thought has always been, you know, the most powerful voting tool that all of us have is our dollars, what we choose to to buy and support. And I I believe that if you just vote very consciously with your wallet, and not just silently, but also tell people why you're making that decision, that makes a big difference, right? I mean, if you are buying your apparel from Guy Dama, maybe that's because they raise a ton of money for women's jiu-jitsu. Probably a way higher percentage of of money that they make goes to those initiatives than you could reasonably expect of a company their size. But there's a lot of businesses in the space and a lot of creators who are doing this. And it's one thing to support them, that helps a ton, but also to let everyone know that this is why I'm doing it. Like, I am buying, you know, mutual friends of ours, right? Hillary Witt, Nelson Puente, the founders of Inverted Gear. I almost exclusively buy Inverted Gear stuff, and it's just because I like everything about them. I like them, I like their brand, I like what they represent, I like their product, and I will tell people, this is why I buy from them. It's not that the other brands are necessarily bad, but if I have the chance to support a small business who does the right thing and has a cool gym, and they've always been good to everybody I know, why would I not preferentially give them my money and let everyone know, turn that into an advertisement to tell people, like, this I mean, so as as an example, if you want to buy BJJ Mental Models merchandise, like, um, you know, rash guards, you have to go to the Inverted Gear site to do it. You got to support their business. I would much rather they get paid for that than some rando I don't even know. Um, so I I think voting with your dollars is one of the most powerful tools. But what what do you have any thoughts on that or any other things that you've seen that maybe can help incentivize that good behavior in the sport? Speaker 2: One of the things that is what do they say? So, um, we're in I I'm in the States. There are all kinds of things going on in the States, um, that I've heard. Yeah, yeah, I don't know if you I don't know if you've been under a rock or anything, but but what what they say what I've heard said is that it the the creating structures, like creating, um, creating systems that help people in government, takes a lot of time and is is it it can be drudgery, right? And it's really easy to tear it down, as unfortunately we're seeing. So, I agree with you 100%. One of the ways is to vote with your dollars. Another thing that I think we have going for us, and maybe this is where some synergy could happen among black belts who are trying to be forces for good. One of the things that we have going for us in jiu-jitsu is that it's not mediated by technology. You can watch footage, you can watch tournaments, but if you want to do jiu-jitsu, you actually have to get to a gym and like interact with people. And so, I for one, I can only speak for myself, but I try to be very cognizant of how I'm coming across to students. And if I'm in a foul mood or if I'm feeling snippy, then I try I try not to visit that on the on the students, on my teammates. And I see that as my responsibility as someone who's been in the sport for a long time, who's viewed as a leader in my gym. So, I think that that's that that's another place where we may not really know the impact that we're having. And hopefully, if if we if each of us is having a positive impact on one person or on or on, you know, the the 10, 15, 20 people who come to our class on a regular basis, then maybe maybe that's something that over time they internalize. So, maybe building a positive jiu-jitsu culture is is something that takes time, is hard work, but is happening slowly. Um, you know, 10 years ago, we wouldn't have been having this conversation, right? 20 years ago, there I wouldn't, you know, I probably wouldn't even have been in jiu-jitsu to to have this conversation with you. So, so there just as we're sitting here talking, we have a lot of work to do, but I'm I'm suddenly feeling more optimistic than I was at the beginning of the conversation because I'm starting to, I don't know, maybe, um, recognize that I do have I do have the power to at least influence the people around me. And can you imagine, okay, so here's what we should do. At some point, and I I know there are camps, and I know there are there are, you know, things like that, but but it would be really fun just to get a bunch of like well-meaning, kind, um, uh, committed black belts in a room for, you know, for a weekend to just sort of chit-chat with each other and share ideas. And maybe that's all already happening, and I'm not being invited, and I won't say I'm, you know, having FOMO, but I'm having a little FOMO if that's happening. But but, uh, so so voting with your dollars, like you said. I think truly just trying to embody the, um, the, uh, the beliefs that you have, the values that you that you claim to espouse. There's a difference between saying, yeah, you know, I leave my ego at the door, and there's a difference between saying that and saying, you know what? I really don't know. I don't know. I don't know crap about the berimbolo. I don't know crap about leg locks. So, you need to ask somebody else, but maybe we can learn together. So, I guess the kind of, um, the bucket that I would that I would, um, put that in is is modeling. Modeling the kind of person you want to be, being the kind of person you want to be, modeling that for other people. Um, hoping there's a synergy there, hoping that people are paying attention to what you're doing in addition to what you're saying. Speaker 1: So, this actually, and I agree with you. I think that one of the unique abilities we have, especially as black belts in the sport, is to model the type of behavior that we want to see, right? That makes a big difference. It it a lot of a lot of young people these days, I mean, they don't have the kind of community or social networks that we would have had when we grew up. We don't get exposed to that much in-person communication, that many social groups, that many opportunities to be mentored. And being a jiu-jitsu black belt is probably one of the fewer and and more exciting places where you can do this. I actually am quite, um, bullish on the future of jiu-jitsu because it is one of those few places that is like a powerful third place to to make social connection. And it's also growing, and it's interesting, and it's exciting. A lot of the other, um, third places that used to be important, they're kind of just dissolving and becoming less popular. Whereas jiu-jitsu has the potential to actually, I think, be more popular. I really think martial arts are going to have a a huge potential impact for good in the future as they take a more prominent role in those spaces. Um, so I I am completely on board with that. One of the challenges that come that I have found with trying to model good behavior is that people will be, you know, when when you put a a statement out there, people will be critical of it. And the most common thing when someone tries to model good behavior is they'll get accused of being performative, right? Like, oh, they're just doing this because they want attention. They don't they don't really care about the impoverished children of Mexico. They just they're just doing this for social clout. And that could be super demoralizing to to people. How do you deal with I mean, I guess this has always been a problem, but it really feels worse now. How do you deal with the haters? Like, if if you just want to do good, and you don't want to attract that kind of negative attention, what do you do to to deal with that? Do you just block those people and cut them out of your life, or do you try to engage with them? This is one of the more challenging areas of modern life. I find is just weird anonymous people sending you weird anonymous thoughts and just completely unsolicited. And how how do you deal with that? Again, we are biased towards negativity, and so one pissy comment can be enough to completely throw throw you off your game and rethink what you're doing. I've seen people in that situation who want to do good things, but they don't want to have to deal with being publicly judged or being accused of virtue signaling or what have you. How do you stick to your compass in the face of just kind of toxic jerks for lack of a better term? Speaker 2: This is for me, this is where it takes a village, and it also takes internal fortitude and the willingness to be, um, to be, uh, introspective. So, and I said it takes internal fortitude like I have a bunch of it. I'm not saying I do, but I aspire. Um, yeah, it's it's it I I think that's human nature too, to, um, focus on you you you teach a class, and everybody tells you that the class was great, but then you hear through the grapevine that there was one person who didn't like it or was bored or whatever, and you fixate on that one person. And what I try to do in those situations is just gather data. So, I've actually I've actually done this every time I've started a new job is, um, collect victories or collect positive experiences, and literally make a list of, okay, you know what? Your new boss said you did a great job on this. You, um, you know, you had a great conversation with a colleague. You solved a problem that nobody else realized was a problem. And then sort of over time, you start to realize, you know what? I actually am doing some good in the world, and you can't please everybody, and, um, you know, if you if you go on social media, everybody is saying, don't worry about what other people think. Easier said than done. But, um, but so I try to I try to sort of make sure that my internal compass is working, and I also try to have people around me that I trust to tell me the truth when I'm making mistakes or doing dumb stuff, um, because I make mistakes and do dumb stuff. And sometimes I lie awake at night thinking about the trolls and going, how can I change their minds? And, um, that's part of it too, right? Like, I I probably do that about, you know, that's like 10% of my of my attention span. But the good news is that it probably used to be 50. So, maybe maybe that's another thing is just as you as you mature, either as a person or in jiu-jitsu, or as you start to accumulate data that tell you, you know what? I'm living my principles. Um, that's that's can become more important, or that can tip the scales in favor of giving yourself a break in the face of trolls who are just coming out to just be trolls. Um, sometimes it's fun to engage them. I don't try to change their minds, but I do try to, you know, get them to talk to me and tell me what they're thinking, and then, um, but I don't do that as much anymore either, you know, because time is valuable. Speaker 1: That is true, right? It is easy to get dragged into this cycle with these people of wasting a ton of your time, and you never had a shot at changing their mind or making a positive impact, but you fell into the trap anyway. Um, I think of the the way that negativity can stand out. I mean, I remember one time I went to a seminar, and at the end of the seminar, the coach, who was very conscientious, just asked, like, give me your your feedback. What did you think about this? And, you know, everyone said, great seminar, coach. Great seminar, coach. And then the last guy they went to said, like, this is the worst seminar I've ever been to. I got nothing out of this. Waste of my time. Wish I'd never came here. And I don't look, I don't remember anything about that seminar except for that one comment, right? And and it just goes to show how negativity takes so much of our headspace. It drowns everything else out. And I don't know of any good solution other than to be aware of that bias and to be extra positive because of it. Um, there's a a saying in, uh, sociology, they call it the in pop sci, they call it the magic relationship ratio. And the idea is that for every, if you want to have a healthy relationship with someone, you need to have a minimum of five positive interactions for every one negative one. That's right. So, it's not sufficient to just balance the good and the bad interactions. You can't go 50/50. You have to have an overwhelmingly positive relationship with someone if you want to drown out that negativity. And I think that's where maybe the rest of us can can take a lesson, right? Is to focus on promoting that positive message and drawing attention to to the positive. I mean, um, you know, a big a big criticism of a lot of politicians is that they're just way too reactive to things. They don't have a plan of their own. And I think maybe this is an example of that. We could sit around and react to all of the negativity, which is important work. Like, we do need to talk about this and draw attention to it. But we also run the risk of then being fully negative focused and not having a vision for what the sport could look like. And that means a lot more positivity, hitting that message over and over again. Speaker 2: That's such a great point that, um, being reactive, first of all, it it's it's painful, right? It, you know, it it puts us in a in a space where we don't feel good about ourselves, we don't feel good about the world. But like you said, in the absence of a vision, we don't know where we're going. So, it's not it it saying, I don't want that. That's a start, but that's not a path forward for our sport, for a person, for, um, an organization. That's not a path forward. There has to be a clear articulation of what you want to be and what you want to stand for. Um, so I I just I really I really like that that idea. And this is where, like you were saying saying before, it's kind of funny that we don't invoke more research, more evidence, more data, although I know that, um, we're becoming sort of like a culture that's anti-research, anti-evidence, anti-data. But I like that stuff. Um, I know you do too. Um, but it's funny that in jiu-jitsu, we don't do more of that because, um, first of all, you talked about the the ratio in sociology. Secondly, I was thinking about, um, there's a there's research to suggest that there's a perfect number of, um, of people in a group. I think it's I I want to say it's 150. Dunbar's number. What is it? Dunbar's number. Dunbar's number. Yeah. So, so there are all so so the perfect size for a community, is it 150 people? And after that, there like there's infighting and things like that. That's what they say. I mean, I I'm not sure exactly how bulletproof that is. I'm sure like with many things in sociology, there's wiggle room around it. But the idea is that once a community reaches 150 members and goes beyond that, it starts to fragment and fall apart, and it becomes harder to keep a collective vision. And I think that probably tracks. I mean, anyone who's worked at a smaller company and seen it get bigger and bigger has probably seen it lose its culture over time. And then it becomes a battle of, okay, I we we are no longer one big tribe. We are 10 little tribes in a trench coat, right? And do those tribes get along? Can they coexist enough? And how do we manage that relationship? Exactly. And the point the point is that like you were saying before, there is some there are some models, some some BJJ Mental Model. No, there are some theoretical models and some, um, some structures and some some thinkers who have data and evidence and, um, and theories that could help us in jiu-jitsu create a a path forward as opposed to just being reactive. Um, and that's, you know, that's something to to consider as well. The other challenge, though, is, you know, as as I'm sure you know, jiu-jitsu instructors are just sitting around doing nothing, right? They're just teaching. They're not running businesses and taking care of students and doing all these other things. So, um, so they have plenty of time to invest in learning about theories and things like that. I'm being facetious, of course. Of course. Well, that actually leads to maybe the last question I want to ask you here. I know that you have, um, spoken before about how jiu-jitsu is actually about much more than just the jiu-jitsu side of things. And we might not be properly equipping people to understand that as they step into leadership roles. And as you mentioned, when you take over a gym, the actual jiu-jitsu very quickly becomes one of the the smaller elements of that job, right? It turns into business, sales, marketing, sociology, interpersonal relationships, coaching. Like, the actual ability to perform jiu-jitsu becomes less and less important. It becomes more about what are you giving back to the group. Um, and I know you've mentioned that maybe we're teaching the wrong things here because we when we teach jiu-jitsu, we only teach the jiu-jitsu, right? We sit down and we talk about breaking mechanics and positions and strangles, and that's all well and good. But when you get up to black belt, the skill set that is going to allow you to perform as a professional in this space, only about 20, 25% of that is the actual ability to do jiu-jitsu. That turns out to be one of the easiest things to to compensate for. Like, if you're a black belt, but you're terrible at jiu-jitsu, that's actually not that big a deal because it's really easy to hire a person who's good at jiu-jitsu and let them deal with that, and then you deal with everything else. So, it it reminds me of how, you know, thinking back to when I was in school, they taught me all of this stuff that I I and in retrospect, I really wish they had taught me like emotional intelligence, how to do my taxes, how to save and invest, how to apply for a job, how to how to start a business. These are the skills that I really wish they had taught me, but none of that ever came up. Do you think we have the same thing in jiu-jitsu whereby hyper-fixating on the actual grappling, we're maybe failing to teach things that are fundamentally more important if our students stick around to black belt? Speaker 2: I think I think there's definitely something to that. So, what's coming to mind is self-regulation, group dynamics, um, you know, balancing your budget if you are a business owner, uh, input, output. All of these things could be brought to bear. Um, just interpersonal skills, right? You know, how many how many times have you heard the joke that that people who go into jiu-jitsu are a little bit weird, and, you know, not necessarily very good with people. Um, but maybe that's not something that they want to be. Maybe they're they're, you know, people who have that kind of, um, personality, maybe they would be excited to learn a little bit more about interpersonal skills. Um, communication, all of these things, I think I think are to the point you're making, they're all things that we kind of if we don't learn them as subject matters, we learn them on the fly. Or we don't learn them, and we face the consequences. Speaker 1: And unfortunately, when you face those consequences, you will probably be blindsided, and it will be at the worst possible time, and you will have very little time on your on your side to plan around that and to react intelligently. You'll just get put on the spot, right? Um, and I do think that this is why we hear about so many gym horror stories. It's not always that the coach was evil and malicious, but sometimes it's just that they were not up to the challenge of leadership in a difficult time because they weren't coached for that. They weren't educated on that. They weren't prepared for that. They thought by starting a jiu-jitsu gym, that means I just get to be Peter Pan and play all day, right? But that's actually not what it is. It's a real business, and that means it comes with real business concerns. I I do think there's probably a place in the sport for education on the more, um, social and business front. I mean, we've always tried to do that at BJJ Mental Models and talk about that, and maybe this is just a a clarion call that there needs to be more information presented there. But, yeah, man, a lot to get into. Any closing thoughts, Valerie, that you wanted to share? Anything on your mind that we didn't touch on? Speaker 2: I just appreciate the opportunity to chat with you because I know that, um, you are consistently shining a light on these issues and doing a lot to make our sport better. So, I just appreciate you. I appreciate the opportunity to do that. And one of the things that I'm trying to do more of is, um, empirical work. So, studying jiu-jitsu empirically, um, to kind of contribute to the knowledge base. So, it's it's it's kind of like building a government. It takes a lot of time, but, um, but I think there's there's a, excuse me, an an increase in empirical literature on jiu-jitsu as well. So, um, hopefully when we when we plan our big jiu-jitsu summit, we can bring some of that to bear as well. Speaker 1: I would actually love to do a jiu-jitsu summit. Not like a seminar thing where you get together and do techniques, but actually just like a a summit, a retreat where people talk about stuff, and they work through problems, and maybe give presentations. I have no idea if there's interest in that, but if anyone's listening to this and they would actually be willing to pony up for that, let me know. If there's a market for that, maybe that's something to think about because that would be that would be a lot of fun, right? Like, as as an older guy who is no longer as keen as I used to be to fly across the continent to get my ass kicked by a bunch of strangers, I would definitely love to go and just talk shop with people. That would be super interesting. So, um, if anyone is interested, do let me know. Um, but Valerie, let's plug some stuff. If people want to check out your work, if they want to train with you, if they want to get your book, if they want to get your cat, where do they go about doing that? Speaker 2: You want to get my cat? Yeah. So, first of all, um, I'm all about the summit too. If anybody's interested in it, then I would love to I would love to participate. Um, and what else is going on with me? So, I train at, um, Gracie Philly in Philadelphia, and come by. We like to have visitors and guests and stuff. And the the latest thing that I'm doing is, um, I'm trying to get more into health and wellness coaching, getting getting back into that. I want to get some additional certifications. And, like I mentioned, I now have a certification in feline behavior and training. So, if you have questions about your cat, if you have questions about your health and wellness, um, you can reach out to me. I'm I'm on Instagram, Worthington Valerie. And, um, and I'm working on some some research and things, and so I'll keep I can keep you posted about that. But, uh, but yeah, I just I like talking to jiu-jitsu people. So, um, if you happen to be in Philadelphia, come visit. If you have questions or want to chit-chat, reach out. Speaker 1: There you go. So, if you have jiu-jitsu or sociology or feline-related questions, Valerie is the person to ask. I mean, presumably you can tell us why people in jiu-jitsu have this weird obsession with lions. That would be the first thing I would want to know. Um, but maybe that's a maybe that's a topic for another day. But thank you so much for doing this, Valerie. Speaker 2: You're welcome. Thanks as always for having me on. It's always an honor. Speaker 1: Always a pleasure. Thank you to the listeners too, and we'll talk to you soon.