Martial Artists Should Get Political

Speaker 1: Hey everybody, welcome back to Fighting Matters. I am Steve Kwan from BJJ Mental Models. I am here with my friend Jesse Walker from Rough Hands BJJ in Louisville, Kentucky. Jesse, what's going on? Speaker 2: Oh, a whole lot of everything and a whole lot of nothing, I guess. So, we're going to get into it today. Glad to be here though. Speaker 1: I don't even know why I ask anyone. No one says, oh, it's going fine, which I I guess is actually why we're recording this episode, because we are also joined by a long-time friend of the community. Happy to have him on here. I've got Joshua Peters on the line. Joshua, how's it going? Speaker 3: All right, it's a little chilly out here on the East Coast. Speaker 1: When when the weather's bad, what better to do than podcast about jiu-jitsu and politics, right? I mean, it it truly is the national pastime, isn't it? Speaker 3: Yeah, better than therapy. Speaker 1: So, let's let's talk about you, Joshua, because we've got a I think a really exciting topic here today, and there's a reason why you're the guy we want to talk to. But maybe tell your story. Who are you? What's your martial arts background? And also, what's your politics background? Speaker 3: So, yeah, um, the martial arts, politics, and my careers have been very intertwined. I started uh, with Kung Fu in 1988 with Dennis Brown. He was one of the forerunners of sort of the African-American Kung Fu movement in the United States. And he happened to be a local guy. Um, I was 11 years old walking, I walked by his gym. He was doing a three-section staff form. My jaw hit the ground, and I begged my parents to sign me up. And it was very interesting because it was, um, I was definitely the minority in that gym. It was about 90% African-American, and I took like an hour, hour and a half bus ride each way. My parents are from New York City, so sticking an 11-year-old on a bus to them was just what you do. So I went back and forth, you know, maybe once or twice a week for about two and a half years. And then a Taekwondo studio opened up near my, uh, near my house. So it was about a mile walk, so that was a lot easier to do. So I started that in 19, about 1990, 1991. And I remember when I was in middle school, my grandmother watched me teach, and she's like, you're going to be a school teacher. And I said, you're out of your mind. Well, my grandmother has her doctorate in education. She was a teacher in New York City for 29 years in the Bronx. And then she taught at Salisbury, and then worked with the State Department looking at education systems. She was a very much a boots on the ground person. And she was right. I eventually became an elementary school teacher. I went to American University for that, and I taught for two years in DC when, um, the Michelle Rhee came in. I don't know how much y'all followed sort of local politics, but she had like five years of classroom experience, and they put her in charge of everything. And DC is perennial the, um, the whipping boy of the government. Um, they cut funds, so for them to save it, they just fired all the second-year teachers right before they get tenure. Now, on this, my grandparents met at a Communist Party rally in the 30s. My grandfather though was a communist who believed in the ideals, but he also wanted to get rich. So my grandmother divorced him. They remained best friends their whole life. He had a got a house a mile from her, so they could co-parent. Um, um, they my they my grandmother and my father were freedom riders. And I my grandmother started like five or six peace organizations and like Santa, Seniors Against Nuclear Arms, the Gray Panthers, and some other stuff. And you know, I can remember being five, six years old stuffing envelopes and doing mailers for her different organizations as part of her also teach me how to read and write because I had learning disabilities. And it really instilled in me like taking me to marches, and then instilled in me like sort of this idea that you should be involved. Um, my grandmother told me, you know, you have a kind of responsibility to the community that you're part of. Um, well, I fast forward, I, um, in high school, I worked with the MR community. People with severe mental handicaps, and I kind of had the inkling there. I was like, oh, I kind of like instructing. I then volunteered as a teacher's aide at a parochial school. My best friend's mom was a teacher, and they hired me. They actually begged me to become a full-time employee. So I was like, oh, I really like this. So then I went to school for education. I graduated. I taught at Kenilworth Elementary, which was the first or second worst performing elementary school in DC. I remember when, um, DC couldn't even get a paycheck out to me correctly. I had to go pick it up by hand. And I remember I went down to the office and I picked it up. And this old lady, she says, oh, where do you teach? Kenilworth. I'm like, oh, how many years have you been here? It's my first year. She goes, oh, that was wrong of them. But, you know, I also wanted to work with those children. And I started jiu-jitsu in 2002. Um, I went to school in Vermont actually for two years, where I met Bernie Sanders and even had about a half an hour conversation with him and started a mentoring program up there because the high school in Putney, Vermont, was on the verge of losing its accreditation. It had such a low graduation rate, they were not going to recognize the diploma. So I was like, oh, you know, let me get involved and do something. And then 9/11 happened. Bernie came and talked to us, and then he talked to anyone who would engage with him. He he was it it was made such an impression of this, you know, a senator, a high-level politician, but and I'm not a constituent of him. I couldn't vote for him. And he talked to me. About a half an hour. He remember he came in and he says, we're going into Iraq. They've already planned it. They planned it before 9/11. They just needed an excuse. And then I realized a bunch of kids there didn't even know how to register to vote. So I started a voter drive, and I got in and I became a school teacher. Eventually, I worked, um, for 13 and a half years. I taught K through fifth grade. I also worked with 13 to 20-year-olds in a live facility at a mental institute. You know, from just really bad, bad backgrounds. I loved that job, even though it was year-round. And we didn't get the quote-unquote summer break, which, by the way, isn't really a thing because even during summer, you're going to classes and working. Um, in 2004, I started my club. It was called, um, um, Capital Punishment MMA. Um, like all the students kind of came up with that name. And then also when I started to make it a business, I was like, I probably can't run like, what am I going to call the kids? Like the little executioners or something, which is funny, haha, but it's not a viable. I probably and I say and, um, uh, a business model. Um, and then the club went from 5 to 10 to 20 people. I was like, oh, I think I have something here. And I got into it. And then also growing up and living near DC, you know, I've been listening to C-SPAN since I was 12. It's interesting. I've always been fascinated with politics. I I find the whole thing interesting. Um, so my last year teaching, I was starting to get burnt out. I did not want to be that teacher dialing it in. You know, when you have kids begging you to adopt them, they deserve better than a you know, they need 100%. Everyone has an off day, but you can't have an off year. That's a disservice. So I quit. And I decided to run the gym full-time. Um, we can fast forward a number of years. I've always been fairly outspoken with my beliefs. You know, we were talking before it started that, you know, sports and politics don't mix. Oh, they have. They've mixed since the time of Rome. Right? People could get positions in the Senate. If you know, by winning sports competitions, memorialized. So, when the Trump administration came in, uh, my former wife, she, uh, she did everything. Her dad was from Louisville, Kentucky. My wife was the first person in her whole family to ever go to college. And then she went to Georgetown, graduated second in her class with a degree in disaster management. Before that, she was a a pastry chef. So she literally did the whole turn yourself around. She loved it while she was working for Biden. She had her issues with him, as a lot of us did. But it was a good place to work at FEMA. And the day after the inauguration, it was just so miserable. And it's one of the things that really kind of led to the dissolvent of our marriage of her having so many problems with this. And then a lot of my friends were federal employees, and just seeing how bad things got around here. You know, the, um, in just the DMV area, I believe there's 22,000 now unemployed federal workers. These highly skilled, highly motivated, highly trained, dedicated patriots. You know, they you can make a good money at the government, but it's not easy. You know, you don't do this because you want to get famous because you generally you get into it because you have a core belief in the, uh, the possibility of America. And it's just, you know, a a a game only works if everyone agrees to kind of play by the rules. And when one entire side decides that the rules aren't worth following, you see how quickly things fall apart. It made me very frustrated. It made me very angry. I have students who were then set to be deported. You know, I have now a lot more keys to my gym floating around that I'd never feel comfortable with, but just so people have a place to run to. And I decided, I can't bitch on Facebook, and I can't just go to marches. I like going to marches, but let's be honest. They don't do too much unless we're talking about real economic boycotts. I said, well, you know, I have this position of privilege and power. I'm a white guy. My job is not tied to the government per se. You know, even though a lot of my students are at the government, I have to do something. And I I'm a big believer in local politics. And I've I've always had since I was in high school. And I said, you know, let me what's a real low-level position I could run for and realistically win. I said, County Council seems like a thing. I didn't know that City Council was like one below, but I said, you know, let me run for this. Let me try to put my hat in the ring and see if I can just do something to help my community. That's and I think that's why we go into martial arts, maybe idealize or maybe it might be a romanticized image, but you know, to become the warrior, well, warriors should protect people. We, you know, and I I I was, um, talking to Tim Kesting, and I said, you know, I got my ass whipped before. What's the worst that happens now is I lose an election. I'm not getting punched in the face. So, let's see what happens. Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the election here. What exactly are you running for? And talk about what inspired you to choose that role specifically, because there's a lot of positions that someone could choose to run for. I'd love to hear the thought process of, first of all, what are you running for, and why did you choose that specifically? Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm running for County Council in District 4 in Anne Arundel County. Anne Arundel is just below Annapolis, the capital of Maryland. Um, I'm running for one, it's a very low-level position. Um, as someone who's not aspiring to be a lifelong politician, I don't believe this is going to be a career shift. I love what I do. But it's something I can have a direct impact. We deal a lot with zoning. So, um, there's a huge housing crisis in Maryland. There's a lot more people and I mean, my house has gone up over $150,000 in value in the five years I bought it, which is absurd. You know, it's crazy. And I think, you know, housing is a human right. We have to create opportunities to build housing, both through zoning and then make it enticing for builders to come in and providing that. Um, one of the guys I'm aligned with, his name is Pete Smith. He's introducing he introduced a past legislation to build cottage homes, which are great starters. And like the house I live in a townhouse. It's built on this massive plot that was originally owned by two former slaves. It's like 500 acres or so. So, you know, I think and then they sold it in, uh, I guess generationally down to a church. Uh, I think in 1995. So people, you know, we need that places for people to live. The there are 200 students entering at Fort Meade High School, which is one of the major two of the high schools in my district. There's 200 kids in there that are reading below grade level. They're reading at elementary. And most of the science will say, if you're reading below an eighth-grade level by the time you get to ninth grade, you'll generally make two years of progress in the four years of high school, which is pretty damning. Um, United States prisons are built on 10-year cycles based on third-grade reading scores. So you want to talk about the prison the school to prison pipeline? That is it. And it is terrifyingly accurate. What being, uh, at a deficient reading and comprehension level is as an indicator to what your future holds. So maybe I can do something about that. Um, funny enough, um, Louisiana, which is generally not a place we want to hail as kings of education, made a major change towards, um, a much richer phonetics instruction. And their school system, they went from like, I think 45th to now 13th in the United States. So maybe we could do something like that in Maryland, which has some of the best schools in the United States, but are segregated by economics, which then boils down to also class segregation. I was in, um, and then selfishly, I want a stop sign put out near where I walk my dog because I play Frogger, and I like not to duck keep I love my state. I love Maryland. But the people here drive like it's Mad Max. Someone asked, what's the difference between a Virginia driver and a Maryland driver? Virginia drivers drive like there's no one else on the road. Maryland drivers drive like they have nothing to live for. So, maybe if I can get some of the stop signs working better, and I can get sort of some safety. I can get some after-school programs that would help deal with some of the delinquency and some of the minor crime that goes on. Smarter zoning, uh, uh, smarter processes for, um, business permitting. It is excruciating like business Maryland's ranked 49th out of the in the union in terms of like business welcomeness. And which is not good for long-term viability. So maybe I can make it easier for people to start businesses while still having, you know, the right fire permits and stuff, so buildings aren't burning down. So things of that nature. And then zoning's also allowed Westmore, I'm sorry to ramble. Um, there are two proposed ICE facilities. One in Hagerstown, one in Elkridge. Elkridge is around my corner. It's not my district, but it's in the neighborhood, so to speak. And County Council's going to have a lot of influence on zoning for those sort of things. Speaker 1: So, here's a question I've got for you. Um, often times when people think of, I'm going to run for office, they're thinking of some like big, I'm running the country role or at least the state, right? When people think of running for politics, they often think of running for president or, you know, state congressperson or state senate or something like that. And then that makes people start thinking, well, I don't want to make this my whole life. I don't feel like I'm educated enough to do that. I don't want to become the victim of media campaigns. I don't think I am qualified or capable of governing this whole state. And I think what you're illustrating is that politics, and in fact, sometimes the best politics, it happens at the local level. It doesn't have to be that you're running because, you know, you want to be the deciding vote on national healthcare, although it could be. Sometimes it's just that you want to get the potholes outside of your house fixed, and no one's doing it. And so you realize at some point, well, if this is going to get done, it's either me or it's not going to happen, right? And so you run. And so the vision of running for politics doesn't have to be this big life-changing thing. Like, I'm quitting my job and I'm upending everything, and I'm going to go live in the, you know, in the capital, although in your case, you actually are living there, right? But it it doesn't have to be that. Sometimes it can just be there's something happening in my local community that is incredibly important to the people who live here. And I'm really starting to realize the importance of local civics and local participation in government. If you take a look at how we got where we are today, like, how did we get to the point where the Democrats became this pretty widely disparaged, often considered ineffective political body, whereas the Republicans have been able to basically achieve a stranglehold on almost everything, right? How did that happen? Well, a big part of it is because the Republicans attacked from the ground up, right? While the Democrats were looking at doing things at the national and federal level, um, the Republicans were looking at getting into and taking over local school boards, things like that, right? Local, small communities. How can we get into these local, small groups where, no, they don't impact the entire world, but you know what? You can make a massive difference on 100 or a thousand or 10,000 people. And then when you do that, that becomes a snowball, and then it gets bigger and bigger. And if you create a lot of those little hotspots all around the country, next thing you know, you've taken over the Supreme Court, you've gerrymandered every single state, you know, you've taken over Congress, you've taken over the House. It it all starts from local grassroots. I mean, God, take a look at some of that Sinclair media stuff and their strategies of attacking local, small cities, small local networks. Bottom up is incredibly powerful. And sometimes when people look at politics, it feels hopeless because they think like, well, I'm not qualified to take Bernie Sanders's job, so I'm not even going to try. But sometimes it starts off from like, okay, I'm not looking for Bernie Sanders's job. I'm looking to put a speed bump on the street by the school outside my house. Talk a little bit about that and attacking local and why that's so important. Speaker 3: Yes, so, absolutely. So, and what you just talked about, sort of that organization. So, I'm going to use conservative and progressive instead of Democrat and Republican for most of it because in the 60s, there was the great shift that Nixon engineered. Um, once conservatives sort of lost the war on integration, they turned then focused on, um, abortion. And once they lost that, there was a big sort of think within the conservative, the Republican Party then as it is now, saying, what are we doing wrong? And then they looked at local politics. Like, what really first began to ferment with Reagan, and then came out now with the Bushes, and then now with Trump, was this focus on winning all these local races. And, you know, all right, a school board. Is that not going to affect? No, look, but they affect kind of what these kids think. The local boards affect who moves up the ladder. Uh, like one of the guys I said, Pete Smith, he is on the County Council, a different district that I'm in, but he's done that. As well as he's a combat marine, so he has like, you know, a resume that can resonate with a lot of people. Really fascinating story. Um, my campaign director, Gloria Dents, she's had like 20 deployments. You know, so they these people have built up a resume, and that's I think what Democrats and progressives need to do. We are not going to just come in like the guy named Green Party or something who shows up like an Instagram model every four years to run for president without putting anyone in a lower office. We have got to rebuild the base from the ground up, and we have to appeal to people. There's a couple things that happened. Like, NAFTA was a disaster. Clinton's labor secretary wrote in 1993, 93 or 94, that the Democrats will lose the working, the Rust Belt, they'll lose the Rust Belt Democrats with NAFTA because we're going to treat all these people as consumers instead of producers. And now there is the march towards globalization and how industrialization comes on like with automation and whatnot. But you don't want to just treat people like they're disposable. And I think we have to go back. And that's what I saw. Well, I I'm not exactly qualified. There's I don't know if you ever watched, uh, um, The West Wing. In the last episode, the guy's talking about the new about the next president coming in. Because this guy's an egomaniac. He goes, let me tell you something. You don't want someone running the country who doesn't think they're anointed by God to run it. It's such a ridiculous job. I know I'm not that person. I, you know, I don't think I'd trust me to be governor. But I've been a school teacher. I've been a business owner, which I never even saw my I I never even maybe I don't know, this is great self for me, but I didn't even see myself as running a martial arts school. It's like, oh, I have to be a business owner now. Learn how to do that. So I've done some things. I've seen how things can be organized. I've seen how I can motivate people through education, be it in a classroom or on the mats. So I was like, you know, maybe I can be effective in recognizing what my strengths are to do something good for my community, or at least try to. You know, throw my hat in the ring and maybe I inspire someone else to say, oh, I'll run County Council, then I'll go County Executive. Maybe someone says, you know, maybe I'm going to run for State Senator, State Con or the the Congress. And maybe I that'll be the catalyst down the way because I sure know like watching what my parents and my grandparents have done in their lives, you know, how much that impressed upon me to go out and do something. My, uh, grandfather wrote in my middle school yearbook the year before he died, to know what is right in order to do what is just is the sum total of the duty of a man. We have a duty to go out and try. And I think some people need to be led. It's like, if you're on the mat, sometimes, you know, getting that white belt out to just step on and say, oh, you made it. You stepped on here. You had success. You learned how to fall or something. And you get that, and that inspires someone else. And maybe doing this, I can help change the trajectory locally, but also, you know, to think grandios, maybe this will be my ego, that maybe it is part of the kindling that gets put into the fire that makes people more motivated to stand and fight. Because we either stand and fight, or this whole thing falls apart. Speaker 2: I think that's one of the, you know, one of the reasons we wanted to have you on is so we could, you know, platform this a little bit more to let people know like, hey, you don't have to swing for the fences and try to be president just because you want some change in the world. There are lots of, you know, not to disparage, you know, the office that you're running for, but like lower-level offices and and local local stuff, regional stuff that has a huge impact on all of our lives. Um, and it's something that I I feel like it could be really accessible and attainable for people, um, if they would just kind of, uh, scope their vision, uh, a little more narrowly. Speaker 3: Now, part of that's going to Maryland is one of five states in the union that requires a civics education in high school. So part of that, maybe if you're listening to this and you hope like, lower level doesn't mean less important. What we talk about in jiu-jitsu, the white belts are the most important belts you'll ever have. Like, I recently, um, I have a broken neck pretty much. My C4, C6 fused on their own because you shouldn't be 115 pounds doing open-weight competitions for a decade. Um, but I have cool stories, right? That white belt is the most important thing. And it's that and being a white belt in judo now is great because I get to make all the mistakes. And if we do want to create leaders, I'm a big believer they shouldn't be just jumping in to run for Senate or or for, um, president or whatever. You should build up locally. Learn how to connect to people. It's a skill. And if you don't have a job that intrinsically requires you to really interact and listen to people, then, you know, this is your way to get involved. And it's from some of the people I've talked to now running since July, some of them I've talked to, they enjoyed almost the local scene more. It is that the the you know, it's a very human experience. Whereas you're running for senator, you're just going out meeting people, but I'll go out and knock on a few hundred doors every weekend. Hi, I'm Joshua Peters. I'm running for County Council, District 4. This is my platform. Here's some of my media. Do you have any questions? And then just talking to people. That I find I enjoy that. I find that incredibly rewarding going on these dates, so to speak. Speaker 1: So, Joshua, you mentioned something interesting there. You were giving the the parallels to the importance of a white belt. And I can think of another parallel between politics and the martial arts, and that's competition. Often when people think about competing for the first time, one of their fears is, well, what if I don't perform well? What if I'm not ready? What if I lose? What if I embarrass myself? And the advice that coaches always give is, it's not about winning, right? Losing is an important part of the process. If you want to get better and you want to do this, you have to go out there and and try. And even if you don't win, the value is not in the winning. The value is in the learning and the improvements, not just for yourself even, but in terms of testing the broader community. Your participation forces everyone else to be better, right? The more people who get engaged, the more pressure there is on everyone else to get better. So even if you are not the greatest jiu-jitsu practitioner ever, your participation in the system helps you get better and everyone else. And I wonder if there's a similar thing with politics too, because I think sometimes people, they're afraid to run because they think to themselves, well, I have who am I? I'm nobody. I have no chance of winning. And I would argue that there's still value in participating, even if you don't think you're going to be a shoe-in to take the the spot that you're you're running for, right? Just the process of putting your ideas out there forces competitive pressure on everyone else. It makes them respond to you and address you and address your concerns. So I mean, look, if you're running against someone, even if they mop the floor with you, by the virtue of you running against them and putting your ideas out there, you now force them to respond to your ideas and address them. So even if you lose, you've now propagated the things important to you up the ladder to a level that has more visibility, and now it's being addressed by someone who maybe is more capable than you. So this idea of like, what if I lose? I'm afraid of losing. I'm afraid of looking bad. That holds us back in the martial arts, and I think it also holds us back in our fears of running for politics, getting involved in civics. What do you think of that? Am I right on that? Speaker 3: Uh, so 100%. So, draw the martial arts parallel. Um, my first competition in jiu-jitsu, I did after two weeks of training. My instructor signed me up for the intermediate division because he thought that'd be funny. It was at a NAGA in Wildwood, New Jersey. I sat around for 13 hours, had my match at 1:00 a.m. in the morning against a Lloyd guy. I had no idea what the hell I was doing. I ran at the guy thinking I was going to do some sort of takedown. I got caught in a guillotine. I was almost unconscious by the time I hit the floor. So, you know, 12 and a half hours of waiting or whatever for 30 seconds of the match. Okay. I'm probably the only person who even remembers. I doubt even my opponent remembers that. I'm running for this seat. If I lose, okay, well, there's a bit more of a financial involvement and time involvement because it's, you know, the January is the beginning of the of the official campaign season. I started a little earlier because no one knew who the hell I am. Go out there and run. I'm part of what also one of the reasons I decided to run was, you know, I first then looked up, well, is anyone in this seat? I didn't know there was an incumbent. And I I want to be careful because I am trying my very best not to run a I'm not running against someone. I am running for myself, which I think is actually one of the problems that the last couple Democratic candidates have made is they ran against Trump, not for something. I'm running because I want to be accountable to people. I feel that I have the guts to stand up for things I believe in. I have my non-negotiable principles, which I sat down and mapped out of these are the things I will not compromise on. These are the things I can have some wiggle room on. And these are some of the things that, you know, I don't know enough to say I don't doing. But no seat should be anointed to someone. Not in a healthy democracy. So, if I lose, good. I will thank her. I'm going to shake my opponent's hand and say, thank you for the fight. Because there's I think a level of of legitimacy that gets proctored onto a seat when you have to beat someone. It's the same thing as people, I took second place, or I I took third place in Pans. But there was two people. You know, did I really win? I don't know. You showed up. That's always commendable. But you got to beat someone for something to be really legit. So I would think that even to have this seat, if there wasn't someone running for it, I would want someone to run against me. I think that adds I think that's so important in politics. You know, we have the no kings thing. Well, part of that is on either side. No one just deserves that seat via who they are. I don't deserve this seat because of who I am. Hopefully, I win it because more people believe in what I am trying to do or my message resonates with someone than my opponent. But that's why you should run. And if you lose, okay, there's a lot of people who have ran and lost before. You know, sometimes you got to like, hell, Trump lost against Biden, came back and won again. You know, you have that chance. And you, you know, the whole one drop in the ocean starts a ripple, which can build. You might lose that first run. Maybe you just don't even know what exactly you need for it to happen. But make that change. Then, all right, maybe you like my threshold is, I need to get 10% of the vote. If I lose, but I get at least 10% of the vote, I'll run again. If I lose twice, obviously, there's something I'm not getting or I'm not the right person for this job. Go and run. Set your benchmark of what your minimum is that you have to get. Always fight to win, right? Um, I'm a Carlson Gracie senior guy. He wants to say, you should always fight to win, and if you lose, make the opponent pay a steep price for victory. If I lose, I want this person to know they were in a fight. That they had to go and scratch and claw for every single vote they got. And vice versa. That's that's how I'm approaching it. Also being the non-incumbent. Go out there. You know, a lot of places, especially locally, might have local election funds or matching or matching system or something. You know, investigate. I don't know where you, the person listening to this is, but you have that choice. For me, it only took 25 bucks to file. Go try it. The worst that happens is you lose. Speaker 1: Well, that's something I wanted to expand on you here with because I think a lot of people probably would need this information. What is actually involved and required to run for an office like this? I think for many people, the reason why they don't do this is because they think, I got so much going on. This is going to be a full-time job. It's going to be expensive. But I certainly don't know what the time and money cost actually is to running for local office. Are you able to share some info about like the actual level of commitment that this requires? Speaker 3: So, um, it is a big commitment. Make no I mean, you could do it half-assed, I guess. So, what you legally need to have is a treasurer. Because you are not as the candidate allowed to handle the funds for ethical reasons. I think that's fairly, you know, I shouldn't be using this to launder money. People donate money to a campaign, and then I'm going and buying $100 steaks, right? Speaker 1: What if you just just hypothetically, what if you needed to use campaign funds to pay off a porn star with hush money that you slept with while your wife was pregnant? Could you could you do that? Speaker 3: Highly frowned upon. I mean, well, you know, evidently, that's not too much of an issue, right? So, um, you know, go to the Bunny Ranch or whatever. Um, or some parts of Baltimore I could I could, uh, uh, uh, lead you to. You probably wouldn't want to stay there too long. Um, probably a bad idea. You know, there's there's a couple things that, um, that, uh, uh, discourage people from doing that. But so, the position I'm running for, I believe the salary is $40,000, which is not considered full-time pay, especially not in the DMV. Right? So you're all the people on the County Council have other jobs. That being said, it how much do you want it? You know, do you want to be a fucking fighter? Well, I mean, listen, like I said, I go out every single weekend and I knock on at least a few hundred doors. Or I stand in parking lots chasing after people with like, I have some of my media here. Like, this thing of, you know, it has my pillars. Here it is. The QR code goes to my website. And, um, I'm Josh. I'm I'm just trying to connect with people. Trying to connect. So you're going to have to hustle. You got to you got to have some hustle. But you don't have to run for office to be involved. Go volunteer. If if especially if you're really unsure, find a politician that resonates with you. Hey, can I be get involved? Can I get involved with canvassing, which is knocking on doors? Can I get involved with sign waving? You know, can I get involved with phone banking? You know, those are the remember, if you want to be involved, it does not mean you have to run for office. Show up to your County Council meetings. Show up to your City Council meetings. Show up to your town halls. The number one thing democracy demands of its constituents is participation. It does not have to be like because not I don't I don't want anyone to feel bad like saying, oh man, I really what what can I do because I'm not going I'm not running for office. No, there's a lot you can do, but all of it at the baseline requires you to get up, walk out the door and go somewhere. Be it to hand out flyers, to hand out literature, to show up to events, to show up, you know, show up to the council meetings. Almost all all the government these government meetings, except for like, especially at the local level, they're all public. I was at one till midnight on Monday just to I figured it's time for me to start showing up in person, not just watching them on YouTube. To go up and see what happens. It was it was it exhausting? You know, midnight. I'm going to be up in five hours because my brain hates me. But it was fascinating. I mean, me personally, I loved it. And there's it was it was there are 80-year-olds there at midnight because they were passionate and believed in things. So, you know, if it might not be running for office, maybe not to change the whole conversation, which I highly think it'd be good. If you're a martial artist, you're trained to be that warrior. Warrior wars are not just with our fists. Wars are ultimately fought and won with words, right? Go run. And if you don't think it's for you, go volunteer. Go show up. Show up and say, you know, and say hi to someone even. You might not even be too scared to say I want to talk about an issue. Get involved with a civics group that then has a group that they say this is why I want to say, but I don't feel comfortable saying it. But there are these avenues for you for anyone to be involved. Even and especially if you're if you are in high school and listening to this, I cannot stress how important it is for you to understand that you have power. Um, I think one of the greatest lines in movie cinema history was when, uh, uh, uh, Bill Murray said to the mayor of New York, but Lenny, if I'm right, you will save the lives of millions of registered voters. Right? You will be a voter one day. Right? The college protests, the protests of the 60s against the Vietnam War, a lot were high school kids. So remember, you have a voice. But like I tell my goddamn kids, good and shaking your head is enough. You got to speak up. So you got to be visible and be counted somehow. Speaker 1: I love how you talked about how participation doesn't require you to be the person running. I think sometimes when we think about things like politics, people kind of have a degree of main character syndrome where they think like, if I'm going to be involved in this, I'm going to be the person on the flyers, in the office. I'm going to be the person who puts my my, you know, my neck out there, and I'm going to be the one who runs. But you don't have to be. No one runs for and gets elected to office by themselves. You need a team. And your involvement doesn't require you to be that person who is at the the head of the army. You can be one of those volunteers who helps someone else, right? Because it I mean, again, for a lot of us, we take a look at this and we think, look, I've already got a life path, and I can't put all of this time into running for office. But I can certainly help someone else do that if we're aligned on values. And in fact, the skill set that people bring to the table probably is a lot more valuable than their ability to actually run for office themselves. Some people have that skill set, and they're motivated, and they've got the time and the resources to do it. Other people are just really good at organizing, or they've got some other skill set. Maybe like you said, they have financial they have a financial background. They can they can take on that role of treasury. There's something that they can do. Um, you don't have to be the person who's actually running to make a difference. And I think getting out of that mindset of like, I'm either going to be the president, or I'm not going to get involved. I think you got to break that mindset and understand that any random person can contribute. And you don't have to put your name out there. You don't have to be the one with your name on the flyers, but any person can contribute to the process. It's just a matter of finding the people out there who are doing something interesting that is value-aligned with you, and shooting them a message. Call them, email them, text them, and just say like, I'm not going to run, but I can give you three hours of my time a week, or I've got a a budget that I can contribute. Maybe I'm too busy, but I got funds, right? What can I do? What what is the the place that you could put me to make the most pressure, to create the most pressure, to give you the most results? No one in that industry is going to say no to free labor, right? So, this is how these campaigns work. Speaker 3: No, 100%. That's why it's built on like, you know, it's volunteers. Like this Sunday, I'm doing like a pizza party for my volunteers, and I'm asking everyone who comes to commit to at least one event. Sign wave, knock on doors for two hours. And that's what I'm doing for my Valentine's Day because I think that holiday is stupid. But if you see my Facebook profile, it's a teddy bear being stabbed, and it's bleeding out, um, purple, uh, uh, red paper hearts. Uh, but yeah, you know, do you understand you don't have to be that person because some people do not want to. Um, my treasurer is explicitly says she does not want to door knock. That is not her jam. But she is fantastic. You know, the people I have involved in my campaign, they know what they want to do. And I also chose like the people in my campaign personally because I think they could be effective within the realm of politics with their skill set. And it's not always like, most of the people in the president's cabinets were not necessarily quote-unquote politicians. Speaker 1: No shit. Speaker 3: You have your advisors. You have your you're talking idiots. In this one, I mean, worse than worse than like you do have people like Stephen Miller, who's a horrible human being, but happens to be very smart at what he's able to do, right? So you have to understand that there are a lot of ways to be involved that don't necessarily mean winning the winning an election for yourself. Get out there. You know, it's just like, you know, this guy Brian Glick, right? Who I think you've had him on mental models, right? He's not known as being this world-class competitor, but he's helped so many people become amazing. You can be that teammate that helps the team. Speaker 1: And that's another parallel you see with the martial arts too, because so often the most important people when it comes to getting someone onto a podium, it's not just the athlete, it's the team around them. I've got a lot of friends who aren't ace competitors in and of themselves. In fact, I think a lot of them don't even compete. But they're affiliated with or good friends with the people who do, and they provide support, and their support is essential to getting that person onto the podium. So they're able to build a legacy and be tremendously important, even if they don't have to actually be the one going out there and competing and taking on the risk of injury and what have you. Um, Jesse, what are your thoughts? I think you had something in mind there. Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually had a maybe it's a little bit of a a left turn here, but uh, we get we get beat up all the time about, you know, people being so insistent that we keep politics out of jiu-jitsu. Um, and and you are uniquely intersected, right? You are a currently running politician that is also running a jiu-jitsu school. Um, how do those how do you how how does that work? How do you keep those things in tension? Do the politics bleed into the school? Uh, you know, what what does that look like? What does that feel like? Speaker 3: So, I was kind of like where I want to have a place that is welcoming to everyone. But, you know, we kind of say that, right? Jiu-jitsu is for everyone. Martial arts for everyone. But what does that mean? That's an inherently political statement because that means you have to have an inclusive environment. Now, I don't get up and proselytize my political beliefs when I'm, all right, we're going to bow in, forward and backwards bear crawls, and then we're going to talk about, uh, socialized healthcare. Right? But I use my platform for that. Like, I've was always before the this year, I was a little hesitant about using my school's Instagram to promote some of my political ideas, but I've pushed for that because why? I have a community. And as their coach, I feel if some of these communities are at very real risk of being snatched off and disappeared off the streets, can I really call myself their coach if I'm not being active in some degree to saying, no. And we were talking about this before. Politics is inherent within sports. It doesn't mean I have to badmouth you. I have one of the nicest guys in my gym is very conservative. I once got a mold, uh, uh, uh, infestation in, uh, my bathroom. He spent the whole goddamn weekend, took off of work, doing it for me, charging for materials. This is what he does for a living. He's a H-VAC, he does plumbing, all this stuff. He is one of the absolute nicest human beings. We fundamentally disagree on some things. And I won't confront him, but when we talk, he's also grown. He's a little bit older than me. I'll push back. And we try to find where those common ground are, where it's not, it's not. You know, and I'll never force anyone to say like, you know, we're always worried about, am I going to lose? It is, you know, I I still run just enough that I put $50 a week into a retirement account. I don't plan on I I love what I do. I will die on the mats, or maybe on the way there. Hopefully not that because that probably means someone else is going to get hurt. But like, I truly don't ever envision myself retiring. My grandmother worked until her 80s because she loved it. Probably what kept her going till 107. But, you know, I cannot run a place that has Latinos, that has immigrants, that has and not speak up for them. Because they can't. Some of them cannot put themselves on the radar. I have someone coming to volunteer tomorrow who's explicitly told by her lawyer not to have her name on any of my materials or any of the meetings because of her citizenship status. Speaker 1: And this is insane, by the way. I mean, that Speaker 3: Absolutely crazy. Yes. It's it is it is it is terrifying. Insane seems like almost a tepid word, but I feel I have a job. If I'm going to say I'm an inclusive job, you know, like and we see now, you know, for anyone who's listening to this who's not part of the jiu-jitsu community, jiu-jitsu community is full of some amazing people and a whole bunch of shitbags. We now see from two of the largest, most well-known camps are full of molesters and and and sexual predators. Part of that, I think, gets pushed by the political climate that's on us, makes people feel it's okay. If it's not if it's not explicitly endorsing it, it is tacitly letting it happen. So, to do that, by saying like, I like, I got so when I made I I have a women's only chat group that I made and then kicked myself out of in the gym. I did that like 16 years ago, or like right around when Facebook started becoming a bit more involved, so that the women could have a place to talk who might not feel comfortable even coming to me. And then there's designated people within that that can bring whatever's happening to me. And I have a chat, so it's not just me making these decisions. So, even if I do something that's unintentional that hurts someone, it's brought to my attention. There's, um, I am relatively agnostic. I was brought up Jewish, but there is, um, uh, a real interesting, uh, concept in Judaism that in the High Holy Days, that, you know, a lot of religions ask for forgiveness. God grant you forgiveness. In Judaism, that's not allowed. If I say, fuck you, Steve, God can't forgive me for that. I have to go to you and say, hey, man, listen, I didn't mean to say that. I apologize if that hurt you. I also want to apologize if I inadvertently did something that hurts your feelings. So, I have to have these mechanisms in place so that people have a welcoming environment. You know, and is that political? I think now it is. And maybe that bleeds into other clubs or someone else running running things that says, all right, listen, we have to speak up about sexual assault with the Epstein thing. And, you know, by the way, he's a designated reporter. When I was a school teacher, 90% of sexual assault occurred from a, um, from the mother, father, sister, brother. You know, it's not some cabal of alien people on an island. But we also see as a society, they released the Epstein files with the victim's names and the perpetrators blocked out. And the only person that's gone to the goddamn jail is a woman. Does she deserve to be in jail? 100 fucking percent. But a woman's the only person in jail. And that culture, that acceptance of it, and I have a number of women who have been assaulted. I'm and I'm and out of respect for them, I'm going to be very light on details because I don't want to expose anyone's personal life and the traumas they've had to endure. But I've had a number of women go through that have come through my gym and have or still train with me that have been victims of sexual assault. And I have a teammate that was killed by someone in a club when they roofied their drink. I was also the, um, uh, coach at University of Maryland. It has a really great jiu-jitsu club. And, uh, this was six years ago. It's one of the these girls, it's 18 years old, got killed because someone put something in her drink. So you, you know, are these things political in a sense? Yes. Boys will be boys. It's not a fucking excuse. The the the the patriarchal bent to responsibility is not acceptable. Speaker 1: I want to expand on what you and Jesse were talking about here specifically. This this vibe that we always hear in especially jiu-jitsu where people say, keep politics out of the gym. Keep politics out of the martial arts, right? This is one of those things that people say, and it becomes a mantra, and people repeat it without actually thinking critically about it. There's a lot of that in the martial arts. This one I especially hate where people say politics has no place in the martial arts. My answer to that is, what what do you think the martial arts are? I mean, politics have been a part of the martial arts since time immemorial. Haven't you seen Gladiator? Like that's kind of the point of what we're doing here. People didn't invent martial arts because they were thinking like, is there a really good way to pop someone's elbow? What's the best way to pop someone's elbow? Like, no, there's there are reasons, human reasons why people practice and train this stuff. Speaker 3: Hey, I spend a lot of time thinking about the perfect way to pop somebody's elbow. Speaker 1: We do. We do, right? Speaker 3: Getting out of bed. I don't know, after you're over 40. Yeah. Speaker 1: That that's a means to an end though, right? You know, it's not that's it's not it's not inherently valuable. We do this because of self-actualization, protecting others, being aspirational, helping others be better versions of themselves. It's not because there's any inherent value in learning to dislocate somebody's elbow. It's because this practice has value in terms of what it does to us and enables us to do for other people. Um, and so this idea of keeping politics out of martial arts is insane to me because that is the opposite of why you should be training. But yet this gets parroted over and over again. And it's almost, you know, it's in a lot of ways, it's a control tactic. It's almost like a psyop. It's like when you hear Speaker 3: It's powerless. Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like when people on the right talk about virtue signaling or cancel culture. They've got a lot of terms for this. But basically what they're intended to do is discourage public participation. When people say, oh, you're virtue signaling. You're this is cancel culture. What they're really trying to do is make speaking up, make protests, make public participation seem uncool. They want you as a concerned citizen to think, well, I I just shouldn't say anything because everyone else is going to say I'm just being this is just cancel culture, right? I'm just virtue signaling. I don't want to be that guy, so I'm just going to say nothing. Um, and so when I think when people say, keep politics out of jiu-jitsu, they're doing the same thing. This is a control tactic to suppress public participation. Meanwhile, we know that the people who say this are often the most political. I mean, I very much remember Tom DeBlass in the COVID days, you know, repurposing his whole gym for kind of like far-right rallies because he was so mad about vaccine restrictions and mandates and stuff like that and public health guidance. He was he was so mad about, you know, being told to social distance that he decided to use his business to do the opposite, right? To me, that's not keeping politics out. But I I just bring this up because people seem to think that politics and martial arts should be kept separate, like separation of church and state. But this is, you know, jiu-jitsu should not be your church. It's a very different thing. And having it actively involved in your process, I think is tremendously important. I'd love to hear whether you agree with that and whether martial arts and your background here is part of your motivation for what you do. Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, martial arts brought me to becoming a school teacher. And school teaching then eventually brought me back towards then running a martial arts gym and becoming that business owner. I it is an extension. Now, I'm not I have people from all political walks of life at my gym. I have people who are conservative, much more of my people, I think you tend to attract what you put out, are much more aligned with me. Some are, I would say, more chaotic neutral. Some might be more chaotic lawful. Some are, you know, good, you know, all across the D&D spectrum. But the to unpack virtue signaling, let's look at this. And I'll I'll selfishly use myself as an example. I volunteer about once a month as an escort at an abortion clinic. All right, it's not an I hate that fucking term. It's not an abortion clinic. It's a health clinic, of which abortion is one of the many services they use. This was something that started becoming important to me because a former girlfriend of mine, who's, uh, mom's a nurse and her 20-year-old her sister is a doctor. When my girlfriend was she told me, I just way before I knew her, but she was starting to go through puberty. Her parents didn't want to deal with this, so she had to go to Planned Parenthood to get tampons and all all her care. That's what she went there for. They're important for that. And because people have been attacked, and people have, you know, people, oh, you're a baby murderer, this and that. I mean, they they get harassed all the time going to these things. I wanted to go there. We make sure that they're safe and they feel protected and that someone believes them. I and I post about that on on on Instagram, on social media. I signal my virtue. Right? What am I doing? I'm letting people know one that this is happening. So maybe a woman sees this, says, oh, there are people that are going to stick up for my right or ability to use this service. Maybe other people, men and women will see, oh, this is something I might want to get involved with. Like, virtue like, it's like when DMX had this rant about popular culture. He goes, popular culture, pop music, pop music. Who doesn't want to be popular? We want to be pop music. We want to be pop culture. Like, shouldn't you want people then to be attracted towards you? Because what isn't virtue signaling? If we're going to take this, I'm a S. I'm a this. I'm a that. That's all virtue signaling. It is all relating to the world what your beliefs are. They be conservative or progressive, or Democrat or Republican, or this or that, right? All this virtue signaling. So what the fuck is virtue signaling? It is just an expression of your values. And if you can't express yourself and your values in a country that wants to parrot itself as the claring signal of freedom, then what are we? You don't have to agree with me. I train people all the time that probably don't agree with me as much as I would like. That's cool. That's great. Maybe we have these conversations. That's also why I'm a believer in conversations. Um, you know, one of my black belts is a cop. When he joined the police 15 years ago, he said, this is the best chance I have of not being shot by them. And he still actually, by the way, got a gun drawn on him when he was in his blues going into the station. Political? Yes. Because because politics creates the environment in which these things either live or die in. Right? All like, so this this whole idea of virtue signaling to me is, and I hope I hope I'm on topic because my ADHD, my brain just goes. Um, to me is, uh, it's it's being said to make an excuse or to shut people up. You go out and you protest, or you go to your job. Like one of my students, she's a couple a couple. One of this one woman I'm talking to, who actually was a Republican before this. She is a, uh, a lawyer for the government. And they're, you know, she has to go into work every day to sit at a computer and take Zoom calls. You know, I said, but, you know, you're going to work every day is an act of resistance. It is a signaling that you're not going to be broken. That you, you know, even my ex-wife, I told you, you going to work and doing your job is your signaling. You're my my my my friends who work in this, that is your virtue. Say, no post, here in work today. Virtue signaling. So, all right, listen, is virtue signaling a thing? Oh, maybe, I don't know. But if it is, it's not bad per se. I don't think it has to have a inherently negative, uh, uh, connotation. Speaker 1: I I think that's extremely well said, my friend. I mean, it I I'm kind of sick of people trying to paint public participation as being uncool or bad somehow. That that is the foundation of our our system of governance, right? Here in Canada, where you live in the states. Public participation is key, and there's nothing worse than people being scared out of it or or feeling like, well, I can't control this. It's just a distraction. It doesn't impact me. These are all false beliefs, right? Really for a healthy democracy, everyone must be informed and engaged. And that means, I mean, look, if you really have virtues, you should be signaling them, right? If you're not willing to speak up for your virtues, then you don't have a lot of virtues because you don't really believe in them if you're not willing to say them out loud. Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, Muhammad Ali, the greatest virtue signaler of all time in sports. No Vietnamese person ever called me the N-word. And he went to prison for his beliefs, which is why he's so great. You know, he didn't run. He was a fighter. He was a boxer. He got in he signed contracts saying you could possibly die or be permanently disabled. He took that same risk with his personal with his political beliefs. When Jesse Owens, same thing, signaling that, raising his fist in protest at the Munich Olympics. You know, these are political events, and you signal your belief. And you should be proud to do that. Like, you know, you could be the most ardent conservative, at least believe in like, the one thing I appreciate about this administration is it brought so many people to the forefront. I'd rather you be in my face with your beliefs than trying to stab me behind my back. And you know, say those things to me. You know, say them out loud. Believe in it. Stand for something. You know, we all get on and we are engaged in a sport and a daily that could really leave us crippled immediately. Like that whole thing that happened with with Henry Gracie, who was paid like 50 grand to comment on. And I saw the video. It didn't look inherently malicious. That's just an accepted risk of what could happen. And if we're doing that as martial artists, the very least we should be able to do is at least go to a meeting and say, oh, man, you know, maybe I don't want this area zoned. You know, stand up and say something. Be heard. Be counted because a closed mouth doesn't get fed. A quiet person in the corner, you know, I'm going to say it, if you are you can't be Switzerland. The the silent person sides with the oppressor. So if you are a believer in what is happening, or what should happen, or what could happen, go say it. And, you know, everyone have different risks. You have to understand what your I am not saying everyone needs to go become a a you know, the proverbial suicide bomber. But, you know, understand what your situation is. Like, I have friends who do things, but they have children. They have they're responsible for other lives and maintaining things. So they can't do things that put their job as much at risk. But you do what you can, right? Speaker 1: Well said, man. Well, if people want to follow you on social or learn about your campaign, how do they go about doing that? Speaker 3: Yeah, so, um, I am visible. If you go to friendsofjoshuapeters.com is my campaign website. Um, friends of Josh, uh, friends of Josh Peters on Instagram. I'll it'll be in the show notes. It'll be posted up there. Um, combatprinciplesmma.com is my website. Um, I'm on all the disgusting social universes for better for worse. Um, funding things that I disagree with. Um, this is the way of the world. Um, but yeah, those are the best ways, uh, to get in touch with me. Um, for the school, uh, for, yeah, email me at, um, you know, you can email me. All that will be in the the show notes that I'll send to you. And, you know, if anything, if you're hearing this and you even think remotely, start small. I think good politicians are like, you don't just become a white belt and jump in the black belt division and say, if I can't win black belt world, you know, worlds, I'm no good. No, you go you might have to go to a NAGA or something first, right? Show up to your County Council. Show up to your City Council meetings. Show up to your town halls. Raise your hand. Or even if you're not don't want to raise your hand, just be seen in the audience. Be seen as that person that if you're a 16-year-old junior in high school, they're going to have to get your vote at some point. You know, go out there. If if anything, if it's not for for my campaign, and by the way, I can use every little penny. I can use it. Even for a local election, I have to raise $50,000 is what's generally, um, been said that I need to do, which is gross, I think. But look, look at your own race. Look at what goes on. Show up to a PTA meeting. Show up to show up to something and start there. Because everyone who's listening to this, or seeing this, or whatever, has a capacity to to be an influence for their beliefs. Speaker 1: Awesome, man. Well, very well said. Jesse, any closing thoughts? Speaker 2: Yeah, there was something I think we talked about before we started recording. Um, but for people that have any kind of interest in even just seeing kind of what offices are maybe open, uh, during election time in their area. There's a really great resource, uh, called Run for Something. Run for Something.net. And you can kind of put your, uh, demographic information where you live, and it'll bring up a whole list of different offices and stuff you can run for. There's a whole support system behind it. I think it's probably something worthwhile to put in the show notes as well. Um, but it's a really great kind of entry point to start doing some research to see if you want to do something like Josh is doing, and I would encourage everybody to, uh, take that step. Speaker 3: Yeah, you're not too old. You're not too young. But especially young people, while you're you know, this is the time to make your mistakes, but make make a mark. And if you want to message me, like, I know starting my jiu-jitsu business, um, I don't know if you know who Andrew Smith is. He's a BJJ Revolution. He founded US Grappling. That was around for a while. Um, we talked shop once a week, and that was very helpful. So if you are interested, I obviously I haven't even won anything yet, so I don't know how much value you want to put into whatever I'll tell you, but I can tell you what has worked for me. And probably even better is talk to if you're interested in something, talk to other people in your neighborhood. Start start on your block and see what happens. Speaker 1: Awesome, guys. Well, I will try to put links to all of that in the show notes. Um, just closing it out here. Jesse, if people want to train with you at the friendliest gym in Louisville, Kentucky, where can they find you? Speaker 2: Yeah, you can find us at Rough Hands BJJ on all the socials, roughhandsbjj.com, or, uh, come visit us in Louisville. We'd love visitors. We'd love to train with you. Speaker 1: Amazing. And if you want to listen to more of my dumb ass, and also Jesse's dumb ass as well, you can find me at bjjmentalmodels.com. So, thank you so much, everyone. Thank you, Joshua, for this conversation. Really awesome stuff. Speaker 3: Yeah, this is great. Thank you so much for having me on. It's been great to, uh, like between you and Kesting and then watching what you guys have doing. It was I have to say like, it was not just gratifying, but inspiring and motivating for me to see you taking this platform, taking that risk in a community that tends to not see things the way we do, and put yourselves out there. And you're still here. And you're still fighting the good fight. Speaker 1: Because fighting matters, my friend. Speaker 3: It does. And my campaign might not be where it is, or even a thing had it not been to see other people inside this community willing to take the risks that you all have taken. So thank you. Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, thank you, as well. And of course, thanks to everyone who listens. Really appreciate it. We'll talk to you in the next one. See you then.