BJJ's Best and Worst of 2025

Speaker 1: Hello, everybody. Happy holidays. Happy New Year. Welcome to another episode of Fighting Matters. I am Steve Kwan from BJJ Mental Models. I got Mike Mehaffy on the line from Old Bastard BJJ and Magic BJJ in Michigan. Mike, how's it going, man? Speaker 2: Doing awesome, Steve. How are you? Speaker 1: I am also doing well. I got Jesse Walker from Rough Hands BJJ in Louisville, Kentucky. Jesse, what's up? Speaker 3: What's up, guys? It's great to see your faces. Speaker 1: I know. my favorites. Speaker 2: It's been a while. Speaker 1: It's been a while. I was just telling everyone my whole family has been just under the weather with I I think it's the flu. I'm not sure. It sucked, man. It knocked us all out. And then I when we were finally getting better, I found out that my relatives that we were going to go visit, they seem to also have it as well and they're super sick. So, there goes my Christmas and vacation uh plans as well. We had plans to get out of town, so that's all off the radar. But, um, you know what? If you're going to have a nice, quiet holiday season at home, what better to do than podcast with your jiu-jitsu buddies and talk about the best and worst of this bizarre year that was 2022. What do you guys think about that? Speaker 3: What a year it's been. Speaker 2: Oh, I am I am ready for it. This could go in so many different directions today. Speaker 1: Yeah, man, holy smokes. Um, so we we've been talking about this. You know, it is kind of a a tradition, I guess, amongst podcasts and media stuff to do an end of year roundup. You know, so you can think of this as your Spotify roundup for jiu-jitsu. What are the the best and worst things that happened in or around the sport in 2022? I'm sure we're going to miss stuff. Um, there's so much that has gone on, so if we missed something that was important, feel free to dump it in the comments and let us know. Uh, but we all put together some some quick lists of things that we wanted to talk about, both the best and the the worst things that happened in this year. Some of them will be directly related to jiu-jitsu. Some of them will probably be just tangentially. Um, but guys, how do you want to do this? Do you want to start by rounding up the the worst or do you want to do the best? I have the feeling the worst is going to be more fun. Speaker 2: I mean, I'm always a bad news first guy. Like if one of you told me I've got good news and bad news, I'm like, just get the pain out of the way, rip the Band-Aid off. So, my my money is on starting with the worst. Speaker 1: Okay. Well, again, we haven't compared lists or anything, so I don't think it's we're going to be able to put together like a top 10. We'll just round up topics and maybe we'll take turns introducing one, talking about it a bit, and if that's on your list as well, we can just say so and we don't have to talk about it twice. Jesse, I know that you have been diligently keeping your naughty and nice list on this. I see you've got your reading glasses on right now, so I know that shit's about to get real. Do you want to kick us off? Speaker 3: I'm ready. Speaker 2: He even looks like Give me a little like Santa with those glasses and Speaker 3: Oh, here we go. Speaker 2: Looking at your list. Speaker 3: Did we decide to go for the worst first? Speaker 1: I think we're going to do worst first. You know what? That way we can end on a joyous note if we do best of. And normally with an award show, they do the best of at the end, right? We don't want to Speaker 3: Okay. Speaker 1: We really want to end the year with the worst thing that happened in 2022. We already know this year sucked. We don't need to, you know, Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fair. Speaker 1: Dig the grave deeper here. Speaker 3: I'm probably going to start with the thing that's going to hurt Steve's feelings the most. Um, one of my top five worst things to happen in jiu-jitsu this year is fucking Vancouver. Speaker 1: What did I do? Speaker 3: Fortunately, Speaker 1: I know I know I know the direction that you're going with this, but why don't you explain? Speaker 3: Um, we had a uh, really terrible, uh, you know, sexual assault story come out, I think through Reddit originally, um, that was originating in Vancouver that had a ton of victims come forward. Um, so that was that was something big that happened in Vancouver. And then even more recently, I don't know, do we call them Nazis? What do we call them? We had some sort of white nationalist Nazi adjacent event, um, that made some some big headlines that was also happening in Vancouver. Um, so what the hell are you all doing up there, Steve? Speaker 1: Man, I, you know what? I've I have felt this way for a long time. Um, Vancouver has this reputation as being this like very progressive, you know, happy-go-lucky city. But in reality, at least within the jiu-jitsu community, we we have serious issues here. And I don't know why that is. I I don't know what the common thread is. Um, but whenever there is some crazy bullshit that happens in the jiu-jitsu community, I always think like, oh, fuck, is this another Vancouver story? Because yeah, um, Adam Zujek and Zuma Martial Arts earlier in the year, um, a bunch of victims came out and told their story about various degrees of abuse and harassment that they had at that gym. There were a lot of stories that came out. We interviewed, um, one of the accusers on this podcast earlier in the year. And surprise, surprise, that wasn't enough because later in the year, the CBC, which is like Canada's big national news outlet, did an exposé on a clandestine neo-Nazi rally that was being run here in BC. And I don't know if like you said, Jesse, they get very salty sometimes if you call them Nazis. So we can call them what they are. They're like Indo-European white nationalist hate supremacists. If that if they prefer to be called that, whatever. But basically, it was like, you know, uh, you know, protect their white culture at all costs and fucking runes and Nordic shit, Viking shit. You know, all all of the stuff that on this podcast when we talk about active clubs and we've had guests on who have talked about the things that, you know, are signifiers that this is probably a white nationalist group. These people were all into it. Um, and they got busted without really any shadow of a doubt that this was a, you know, basically a white nationalist rally. And it was specifically, it seems, catered toward targeting the martial arts. Um, there were a lot of or or at least there were a lot of martial artists who went. I don't know if it was specifically targeted for the martial arts. Um, but there were many uh, coaches and athletes in the BC community who got pegged and ID'd as being there. And some of them, um, you know, some of them had a plausible story about how maybe they didn't understand exactly what happened. I mean, if you went to this thing, I think it's pretty clear you knew exactly what happened. But they were like coaches who had a plausible excuse for, you know, I had no idea my student was a Nazi. I didn't know. I've kicked him out of the gym now. Okay, fair enough, right? Um, but there were also people who doubled down and made it very clear that no, this is what they stand for. Um, and just the the acceptance of this kind of shit in our sport is getting to be a real problem. I mean, I'm sure this will come up again on the list later. But there's something going on in Vancouver that has always been like this. One of my earliest jiu-jitsu experiences was, um, an instructor that I I knew and had actually trained with before had been, um, accused of sexual and physical assault. Um, and that's not all. I mean, there was a a guy up here in Vancouver who's not here anymore, but, um, I believe he had had to stand trial for, um, in front of the Supreme Court for sex trafficking of all things. He had also been jailed for something else. And he was still finding work like teaching the women's programs up here in BC for a while. Um, I mean, this is a guy again, who like fucking sex trafficking charges and you put him in charge of your women's program. Unbelievable. Um, there's another guy, Dan Golkar. This is a few years ago, who was, um, he had to flee the country. He was an MMA instructor. Um, actually, probably only about his gym was probably maybe 20 minutes from where I live. But he had to flee the country because the RCMP was investigating him for pedophilia. So, it's like, there and I mean, I can go on and on. Vancouver seems to have this recurrent problem with shit behavior. And this is why, you know, people often ask me, they'll say like, Steve, you're from Vancouver, right? What gyms would you recommend? And my answer is honestly like, I I kind of don't recommend gyms at home anymore because I've been burned so many times by recommending someone and then like a year later, they're being investigated for some god-awful shit. Um, another Easter egg, um, legendary jiu-jitsu, um, fake black belt guy, Ari Bolden, who in fairness is a real black belt now. He also is from BC. And, uh, when he was doing submissions 101 and all of that stuff, he was up here in British Columbia. So, we've got, uh, we punch above our weight when it comes to jiu-jitsu hucksters and frauds and assholes. Um, so, welcome to BC and Vancouver. You'll like it here, I guess. Speaker 2: Wow. Wow. What is in the water up there, man? Good Lord. Speaker 1: I don't know, man. I don't know, but there's something there's something about Vancouver where we we have a lot of these issues. Um, like I said, I mean, I can if I were to count the number of instructors in this space in just my local area that I know of that have been accused of something terrible, I think I would need at least two hands and I might have to get my feet involved. I mean, it it happens a lot. And of course, you know, a lot of these have been publicly named, but a lot a lot of them, you know, it's it's irresponsible to throw out names if the victim doesn't want it shared and they haven't come out with the story. And I don't want to retraumatize anyone, so I don't want to spread rumors here. But it's happened enough that, I mean, my God, you see, you after you see these stories enough times, it leads you to want to do a podcast like Fighting Matters because you're like, someone has to actually say something about this shit. It's getting completely out of hand. Speaker 2: I mean, let let's be honest, though. You unfortunately don't have to look too hard in the martial arts to find shitheads. So, although we're picking on Vancouver, my guess is it could be any decent-sized city with any number of clubs. Speaker 1: It could be, but the weird thing is, Speaker 3: Louisville, Kentucky. Speaker 1: But the weird thing is, Vancouver isn't that big a city and it historically hasn't had a reputation for this kind of stuff. But I think it's it's always been there, right? I mean, I one thing I've learned is you never want to believe people's propaganda when they tell you that, oh, this is a great city and it's all peaceful and everyone's so friendly here. Look, there's shitty people of all stripes who come from all over the place. One of Canada's most prolific serial killers, um, comes from my area here in BC, right? Like there's a lot of just really, really shitty people who live all over the place. And never believe the propaganda that I mean, this is important for jiu-jitsu people to understand because everyone always says, oh, well, you know, jiu-jitsu will save my life. I've never had a bad experience. It's always been great for me. I don't think these problems are real. Well, you just maybe your your eyes are closed at the moment. But eventually, hang out in the sport long enough and you'll see something that really grosses you out. Speaker 3: Or if it doesn't, you may be the problem. Speaker 1: You may be the problem. Speaker 2: Yeah. Fair. Fair. Speaker 4: Well, speaking of problem people, first one, well, maybe not the first, but one of uh, my top five worst things to happen in 2022 is our friend Derek Moneyberg, of whom you wrote a poem. Speaker 1: All the Berg. Speaker 3: The Berg. Speaker 2: The Berg. Speaker 4: The Bergmeister. Speaker 2: Yeah, the the Burgermeister, like that villain from uh, uh, that that uh, stop animation Christmas special back in the day. Speaker 1: You could call him the Hamburglar, too. He kind of is built like the Hamburglar, actually, in a lot of ways. Speaker 2: He is. Speaker 3: That's a great reference that somebody is going to tell us about how fucking old we are on the YouTube comments. Speaker 1: I don't even know if the kids know who the Hamburglar is. Speaker 3: Yeah, speaking of worst of, all of you people who are pointing out in the comments that the the hosts of this are very old, we know. Speaker 1: There it's not a mystery. We're we're well aware. Speaker 3: We got we got it. Yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's not like we can just get younger. I mean, it's not like, you know, oh, I got to get in shape. You can't just get young. We know we're old, okay? You don't need to keep pointing that out. Speaker 2: It's in my goddamn nickname. Old Bat, are you kidding me? Like you think I'm delusional that I think I'm young and and and spry? But, uh, anyway, the old Burgermeister Moneyberg. And the reason he made uh, my top five worst things in jiu-jitsu in 2022 is not just because of him, but because of the circle of people that have gathered around him, uh, the Jake Shields and the Gordon Ryans and all the the red pill white supremacist adjacent people that seem to have been like attracted to him. So, you know, I'm I'm beyond the point in my life that I really care if somebody is like a fraudulent black belt. Like it doesn't bother, it doesn't affect me, it doesn't bother me any They can do what they're going to do and, you know, the the mats will tell us who knows jiu-jitsu and who doesn't, right? So whatever, I don't care about that. But it's the the the grifters and the neo-Nazis and just the the trash of jiu-jitsu that he's attracted around him. That's what makes him in my top five worst things of 2022. Speaker 1: That that's very well said. I mean, I think when people criticize this guy, they get laser focused on, does he deserve a black belt in 3.5 years when he's a hobbyist? I mean, look, I could not care less about some random guy and how quickly he got his black belt, especially if he's not teaching, he's not competing. Who cares? Um, but it is more the circle of people that he's Speaker 3: I thought he was opening a school. Is he not opening a school? Speaker 1: God, is that he's going to have Is that are you serious? Speaker 3: I don't know. Speaker 1: I swear I thought I saw him and and Gordon Ryan in a thing talking about how this school was going to be better than it sounded like I was watching a Trump commercial. Like he was going to have the best school with the best stuff and uh, I don't know if that's true or not. Speaker 3: Do they have to wear those god-awful rash guards? Speaker 1: I think they do with his with his face on them. Who makes other people wear a shirt with their face on it? It's fucking weird. Um, but Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, a lot of the Speaker 1: Um, but like you said though, Mike, the I think the big thing is what he's trying to do, which is basically infiltrate the jiu-jitsu community, um, and use it as a way to bring his kind of like sketchy courses into jiu-jitsu and try to monetize against our audience. That I have a problem with. Especially given the nature of the people that he's partnered with. Um, you know, on the topic of worst of of this year, one of my worst would be Jake Shields, right? That's the guy who gave Derek Moneyberg his black belt. And I think it says a lot that all of these people are in the same orbit with each other, right? So, I mean, all I'll say, a lot of people don't seem to understand why everyone's so critical of Derek Moneyberg. Just go into Google or Google or YouTube and look up some of the videos that people have produced about this guy. There have been some good investigative pieces on him and you'll understand pretty quickly why people don't want him to be a a representative of the sport, so to speak. Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, for me, yes, he's a shitbag. Yes, the people around him are shitbags. But he didn't really do anything to add or subtract to the the shittiness of the sport. I think I was just more irritated by the fact that he had sucked up so much of the fucking jiu-jitsu oxygen this year. Speaker 1: That is true. Speaker 3: Um, and that we all are kind of have to talk about it. It's annoying. He's a shitty person. He's surrounded by shitty people. His jiu-jitsu is shitty. Let's just fucking drop it. Let's let's let's not do this again in 2023. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of these people, especially just kind of like toxic influencer types, they thrive on attention, right? And as soon as you cut that off, it's like cutting off the oxygen to them. This is the problem I see with the media and Trump. They fall for it every time. You know, they'll he'll say something ridiculous and then they'll go into a tailspin and they'll cover it for two straight days. And he just completely commands their attention by being as outrageous and and depraved as a human being possibly can be. Um, and the media and the rest of us, we seem to always fall for it every single time. Now, with Trump, it's a little bit different because you can't exactly ignore the president of the United States. But you can ignore Derek Moneyberg. And probably giving him a less attention is probably advisable. Speaker 3: Amen to that. Speaker 1: Yep. Um, I'll I'll give one of the worst. I mean, we talked about this earlier, but I'll bring it up again. Uh, Jake Shields. A guy who repeatedly kind of comes up. This is not necessarily new this year, but he's continuing his thing. Um, if you take a look at his social media, it is basically just all like absolute toxic, racist, supremacist garbage. Um, he's probably managed to parlay himself into being one of the more prominent hate influencers in America right now. Um, and it's really just frustrating that this like jiu-jitsu guy who was, you know, really never was super famous outside of our circles. You know, yeah, he had a career in the UFC, but the most notable thing he did there was get his ass kicked by GSP, right? He never really was able to to make it that way. Um, but when it comes to what he's doing now, basically using social media and podcasts to really just spread vile, vile beliefs. Um, I mean, that that's a bad look for our sport that a lot of these people that that kind of take up all of this oxygen in the extreme right ecosystem, they can be traced back to jiu-jitsu and and MMA somehow, right? That it's like there's a very much an intertwining there. And I think Jake Shields, unlike a lot of the other ones, um, he's got a lot of influence beyond just jiu-jitsu. And that is I think really concerning, right? That, um, between him and Nick Fuentes and a lot of these other guys, 2022 was really the year where we saw a lot of these like far-right supremacist types basically break through and get a a toehold in pop culture and and now things that, you know, even a year ago would have been considered to be like a, you know, just they're they're so obviously evil that they're you wouldn't even consider them. Now these guys are getting media appearances on like Tucker Carlson and Piers Morgan and shit. And I think Jake Shields very much is patterning himself to be one of those. I think that's a huge black eye on the sport, right? Above and beyond anything that he is doing with, um, you know, with his actual jiu-jitsu. I think that is a real problem. Speaker 2: Agreed. Absolutely agreed. I I I have nothing else to add to that other than just I agree. Speaker 3: Fuck that guy. Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, better said than me than me, Jesse. Fuck that guy. Speaker 3: Fuck that guy. Speaker 1: I I think it is worth bringing up though because I'm always always uh shocked to find out how many people in the sport don't know about this stuff. Um, they're they're just not aware of it because they're not following politics or whatever. So, man, like if if there's a jiu-jitsu athlete that you look up to, but it turns out that that jiu-jitsu athlete is also like running this massive hate campaign. Like I would want to know about that before I endorse or support this guy. So, hopefully it's it's worth bringing that up again. Speaker 2: Yeah, I I don't think we want to separate the art from the artist in that case. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. That that I mean, that in itself is a whole discussion about can you even do that, right? I I I don't have an answer on that, but it's something that I've thought maybe at some point we should talk about on here. Can you can you separate the art from the artist and should you? I don't know. It's a hard one. Yeah. Speaker 1: Jesse, how about you, man? Speaker 3: Yeah, so the next one on my list, again, this isn't unfortunately or fortune I don't even know how to frame it. It's not new for 2022. Um, but we had a lot of big sexual assault stories this year. Um, and that is continues to be probably the worst stain on our sport. And the fact that we just as an industry and as a community cannot get it cleaned up, uh, is really disappointing and really frustrating. Um, you know, one of the big ones this year was, uh, around J-Rod. Is that the Red Brother? Yeah, J-Rod. Um, and I think it's just made starting to make the jiu-jitsu news in the last day or so that he is starting to show back up at the gym that he made an exit from a few a few short months ago. Um, now it's after hours and you know, there's all these caveats and oh, but he's not doing this and that. Um, but again, you know, the fact that he is making an appearance back at the place that you know, all of this bad behavior happened sends a terrible signal to the students at that school. Um, and I think to the rest of the community as a whole. Uh, you know, that the Vancouver story, uh, another very recent story that came out, uh, out of Kingsway, uh, Gordon Ryan and Danaher throwing, uh, Isaac Mitchell, is that how you pronounce his last name? Uh, throwing him out of the gym. Uh, and you know, Craig Jones's involvement of that, which has actually been very good. Um, it's just been a really, really bad year. And I guess in some ways it's good that the stuff's coming to light and that more people are becoming aware of it. Um, but also the fact that it's become a higher and higher profile seems to indicate to me that the problem if not getting worse is still really bad. Speaker 2: I I think it in my opinion has a lot to do with the the power dynamic and the hierarchical structure of martial arts in general. I mean, because I've done other martial I mean, you too, Jesse, you did other martial arts for a long time before coming to jiu-jitsu and uh, that was those arts were not uh, bereft of their sex pests and most of the time it was a coach grooming or taking advantage of a student and using like that that power dynamic in an inappropriate way. And uh, you know, we have to hold our leaders to account, you know, we have to make coaches accountable. I there there's no other way to stop this other than just just making it unacceptable culturally to use your power in that way. Speaker 1: And and that's hard because that requires mass action, right? That requires everyone in the gym to be willing to stand up and and vote with their feet if necessary and leave the place if they don't agree ethically with what's happening there. And a big challenge that's come up this year, especially in jiu-jitsu, is it's really hard to get people to take ethics in the sport seriously. A lot of people seem to think that like ethics are optional, but arm bars are mandatory. Um, and I I hate that mindset, right? Like I I don't think you should be training Speaker 2: Sounds like a great T-shirt. Speaker 1: It actually kind of does. Um, I I don't think that you should be doing anything like jiu-jitsu if you can't bring with it at least some spirit of ethics. I'm not saying that you need to be, you know, marching in activist events or anything, but you know, we should at least be able to set a line that when someone is, you know, abusing other students, we take action and we take that seriously. And the number of people who are willing to apologize and make excuses for this is, um, a little bit concerning. I mean, the J-Rod case is a little bit different because he was he was more of a creep than a a criminal from what I understand. Um, and I don't I don't want to speculate too much on this because I mean, who even knows what exactly was was said or done there. Um, but it sounds like it was more just like creepy behavior. And, you know, we talked about this earlier, should that be treated the same as an actual crime? Probably not. I mean, there is a conceivable world where someone could learn from this and atone and be better and come back and earn redemption. But I haven't seen this guy do anything along those lines, right? I mean, I I saw some people on Reddit saying, we should leave this guy alone. He's just trying to redeem himself. Well, really, what has he done to redeem himself? What has he done? Speaker 3: Well, apparently he found Jesus. Speaker 1: He took what, like a six-month hiatus from his gym before he was, you know, he was invited back in. I I I don't see the atonement here, right? And so it's really hard for me to believe that he's improved or gotten better or has corrected past mistakes. And I'm not saying that there can be no road to redemption, but there needs to be an effort and I don't see it, right? Speaker 2: Yeah, agreed. I claiming that you found Jesus is the easiest way to do nothing about your problem. Speaker 3: But that's the thing, right? There doesn't need to be a road to redemption when you know that once the heat dies down a little bit, all is going to be forgiven and you can go right back to whatever the fuck you were doing. Right? We never we never hold these people to any sort of standard, you know. Fight sports is still fight sporting and, you know, all the other assholes are out doing all their assholeish things. Um, and Speaker 1: It is weird to me the the lines of conduct that people have in jiu-jitsu. I mean, people are like big mad about the Derek Moneyberg thing. People get real big mad about Greg Souders, right? Basically, people get big mad about anyone who like tells them that they're not doing jiu-jitsu the right way. Um, which I understand to some degree. But what what is weird to me is people are much more upset about that than they are about actual crimes happening in the gym, right? I mean, God, Greg Souders, you know, and look, you know, you can argue whether he he's earned this, but, you know, he's got this reputation as being just a total jerk who's hard to talk to sometimes. I I have to deny that Speaker 3: He's earned it. Speaker 1: Yeah, personally, for disclosure, I have not had that experience with him. He's always been great with me, but I know other people have told me and they've had this and Greg himself would not deny that he's an abrasive character. Um, but people are all up this guy's ass when really all he's done is just grumpily told people their jiu-jitsu sucks. But that that has owned so much of the conversation over the last few years. And meanwhile, you've got folks like Isaac Mitchell, like you were talking about. I mean, are people aren't really talking about that with the same kind of fervor, right? And it's just it's kind of frustrating that everyone cares so much about like ecological dynamics and Derek Moneyberg, but they don't care about the very real, sometimes criminal things that are happening in our sport that are much more tangible and should be dealt with, right? Um, that's Speaker 3: Steve, I I actually have a theory about that and I think it is it all really boils down to self-centeredness, right? They're not mad about Isaac Mitchell because Isaac Mitchell didn't do anything to them, right? They're mad at Derek Moneyberg because in somehow they feel like that devalues their own training. They're mad at Greg Souders because he's telling them the way they do jiu-jitsu sucks, right? If it's not a personally affecting them, people don't fucking care. Um, which is a shitty way to be, by the way. But I mean, we see that all we see that in our politics, too, right? How many uh conservatives have we seen over the years be terribly, uh, you know, anti-LGBT uh plus until they have a family member or, you know, it somehow it impacts them. Uh, until it impacts these people, they don't care. Uh, which is a big problem. Speaker 1: It's interesting, too, because martial arts have, I mean, if you, you know, if you trace it back to the pre-Gracie times, a big part of martial arts is community and the betterment of yourself, protecting of others, mutual benefit, right? That is like that that is one of the core concepts in judo is mutual benefit, mutual gain. How do I benefit my training partners as well as myself? So martial arts don't have to be this selfish thing, but in the last few year, well, last few decades, I guess, especially in recent history, and I don't know, maybe it started with the Gracies or whatever. I don't know when. Um, but especially with the rise of the UFC, it's turned into this very like individualistic, pugilistic, it just me against the world fight sport. And I think the problem is then like you said, Jesse, you get people doing this who they only care about themselves. And other problems, unless it affects them directly, it's just a concept. It's something that that they don't really have to think about. So you get these situations where, you know, Greg Souders tells you your jiu-jitsu sucks and you're going to go to war with this guy. But someone somewhere else commits crimes against their students and, ah, it's not something really to get upset about because it doesn't affect me, right? And I think that like you said, that's the wrong way to live. Speaker 2: Or you're so invested in them as a superstar, as an athlete, whatever parasocial relationship that you're inclined to just not believe it, right? You don't want to believe it. Speaker 3: Well, I mean, we also see we see it in the comments, right? When when, you know, one of the coaches gets exposed for sexual assault or just being a dickhead in general, we always get these comments of like, oh, well, I've been training there for so and so years and he's always been great to me. And it's like, well, as long as he's good to you, I guess that means he's not an asshole. Um, again, it goes back to that self-centeredness. It's it's self and then everything else. Speaker 1: Um, Mike, I'll I'll turn it to you in a second to give your your next worst of, but there was one that had kind of been floating around and I don't know if there's enough details yet to make it an official worst of, but I think it piggybacks, Jesse, on what you were talking about, and that is the Isaac Mitchell situation. Um, I don't want to talk too much about this because there isn't much on the records that has kind of come out that we can say for certain happened. But, um, Isaac Mitchell, I believe, was an athlete at Kingsway. And a few days ago, there was this cryptic post that, um, they posted basically saying, you know, this guy's out. We've been advised not to talk about this legally. And look, when Gordon Ryan like lawyers up and goes into silence mode, you know something is really bad, right? So for for him to to to say that, like, hey, like, we're not this guy's out, he's gone, and we're not going to, you know, we're not going to talk about it any further because we don't want to hurt anybody. It's like, you know something's going to be bad there. Um, Craig Craig Jones has also been covering this as well and has tried to expose a bit more, but again, I'm not sure how much of this is officially on the record. Just the other day, um, there was at least one, um, victim who came out and and told her side of the story and it sounded pretty awful. Um, and I again, again, I don't want to speculate too much, but Craig has said that he he thinks there's going to be a lot more coming and that this could be one of like really a real dark time for the sport. So, it sounds like whatever this guy did was not good. Um, and again, I I I guess if there's good news in this, it is that, man, when you see Gordon Ryan and Craig Jones agree on something, that's that's unusual, right? And both of them actually stood up and did the right thing here. Um, that I think I think was good. But just the whole yet again, right? Another instance of this happening. Major prominent athlete, you know, in a major prominent gym. It's like you said, Jesse, it's just it's a pattern. It's not a one-off. It's just it's a pattern at this point and something that we need to address as a sport. Speaker 2: Agreed. Speaker 1: Well, Mike, Speaker 3: Mike, what else you got? Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you got, Mike? Speaker 2: All right. Um, okay. I'm going to mention one, but I'm not going to talk about it because we did a whole episode on it, the scapegoating of trans athletes in jiu-jitsu and sports in general. But we just a couple, three weeks ago, did an entire episode talking about that. That's definitely one of my worst. But I'm going to skip over that one to talk about one that I don't know many people have thought about, the uh, BJJ News aggregator sites. Those things like BJJ Docs. Speaker 1: Oh, my favorite topic. Speaker 2: Excellent. I've hit gold. Um, uh, I'm right on the Moneyberg with that one. Uh, these things, I didn't pay much attention to them until the past year or so. Like I would see Speaker 1: When our names started showing up on them. Speaker 2: When our names when our names Speaker 1: You hear that, guy? You only care when it affects you, Mike. Speaker 2: That's right. Right. Right. Well, I knew they were trash and clickbaity, right? You know, I'd get I'd get them on my social media feed and I'd click on it and it it would wouldn't really give me any information like about whatever the article was supposed to be. It was just obviously very trashy. And then especially when it started touching on not just people from this show, but like other important issues and just giving trashy, poorly researched takes just for clickbait and ragebait. That's when I threw them all under the bus. I don't even pay attention to them anymore. And they're they're insidious and uh, they give bad information and bad news and it's just something that to try to get clicks by pissing people off and it's it's everything that is wrong with a lot of uh, news today, I think. Speaker 1: Yeah. And they don't even get link backs for SEO on that shit, do we? Speaker 2: I know. Speaker 1: I I actually had to mail those guys because I think they were like in one of the articles they wrote about us about us, I think they misspelled our names. And I thought like, well, you know what? If you're going to if you're going to try to piggyback and use us for clicks, can you at least get our names right? That would be a nice start if you want to be taken seriously as journalists. Speaker 2: Right. B A S T A R D, it's not that hard. Speaker 1: Yeah, I I the whole, um, content aggregator thing is, uh, I mean, you guys know where I stand on that, right? They the problem is from the perspective of a an outsider, they just see a website with news articles. And unless you know what you're looking at, it it's easy to think, well, this must be some sort of reputable journalistic outlet. But a lot of what these places do is they will just take what someone else has posted and summarize it or rewrite it in a way that makes it look like they're reporting, even if all they're doing is basically just like repeating what someone else tweeted. Um, and you'll notice that pattern. If you look at a lot of these aggregators, they'll write like a thousand-word article that basically equates to like, Gordon Ryan posted a thing on Instagram. Here's what he said. I mean, you you would be it would be a much better use of your time if you care about this stuff to just go and check Gordon's Instagram and see what he said directly. But these guys are kind of spinning it off as as a news article. Um, and then like you said, they will often paint this in the least charitable, most inflammatory way possible because they want to encourage engagement. They want people to get so mad about what's there that they click and they read it and they leave angry comments because that's how you build engagement. Um, and that rewards the that rewards you in the eyes of the algorithm and gets you promoted more. And why do they do this? Because their site is plastered with the most god-awful ads you've ever seen. And every time that people come there and they see that awful stuff, they make a fraction of a penny, right? So that's what this is about. Speaker 3: How meta will it be if they write an article about us talking shit about them? That would be amazing. Speaker 1: I would love that. I would absolutely love that. Speaker 2: That'd be sweet. That'd be so that would be I I would have hit the top of my jiu-jitsu career if that happens. That'd be so awesome. Speaker 3: The other thing, though, and I I don't know that this I don't know that this to be true, but my understanding is this isn't uh a bunch of individual groups doing this. This is really just one group of assholes aggregating and you're renaming across a few different domains, right? Speaker 1: So a lot of the time that's how these sites work, right? Is it'll be just like one guy or a group of guys and they will set up a whole bunch of sites that kind of all look sort of the same, but they look like reputable outlets. And that allows them to skirt things like ban evasion. Um, it's a very common thing. Like if you look at, um, what the hell was it? You you you want to talk about, um, you know, things that come out of Canada. One of Canada's, of course, greatest innovations in the 21st century is Speaker 3: Nickelback. Speaker 1: Nickelback, too. I was going to say internet porn, actually. But in Nickelback as well. So, so fun fact is, uh, you know, like a lot of all of these internet porn companies apparently were like all founded or coalesced by like a group of Canadians. Um, so it's another example of how like there's all of these sites and they all look different, but actually they roll up to a handful of of small people. So I think what these aggregators Speaker 3: Dirty Canucks. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we're filthy up here. Look, there's not much else to do up here, you know, you're stuck in your igloo for, you know, like eight months of the year and you can't go outside because it's cold. Speaker 3: Filthy cold. Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to keep yourself warm, right? You know, um, so what else what else are you going to do but, you know, watch internet porn? That's a that's a great Canadian pastime. Speaker 3: That's how you earn your shoulders, Steve. Speaker 1: Yep. Um, completely unrelated note. Uh, I've got one that in such a fucking weird year, this, which is actually a totally awful story, um, completely flew under the radar, which is that, uh, Leandro Lo's killer was acquitted. Um, there was Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 1: There was so Speaker 3: I remember that. Speaker 1: Yeah, there was so much stuff that happened in the news this year. Um, and also I think because there's been so much time between the killing and and this result that I think, you know, a lot of the the public attention got fragmented off elsewhere. But that's really fucking sad. I mean, now, I I'm I'm hesitant to be too opinionated about this because I have to admit, I haven't really followed the case. So there there is some conceivable world where this guy deserved to be acquitted. I so I'm I'm going to kind of withhold judgment. But from the initial reporting, it sure didn't seem like this guy should have been acquitted. Um, and so to see that justice was not done, um, against one of our one of the most beloved people in our sport. Um, you know, that that is that is really, really sad, right? That that he will not get justice for being murdered. Um, fucking sucks. I don't know what else to say. Speaker 2: Yeah, that's super super sad. Speaker 1: I went to Master Worlds, uh, the year he was killed and, uh, there there were IBJJF had tons of like banners and signs and pictures of Lo all over the place. It was really moving. And I don't really even follow big names in the sport like that. There's a couple people that I that I I like whatever, but I wasn't really like a fan of Lo in particular. I couldn't have told you anything about him. I couldn't have, uh, but I of course knew who he was and it was really touching to be there and see that kind of, uh, memorial at, you know, one of the biggest tournaments of of the year. So, yeah, to hear that his his murder was acquitted was was shocking. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I haven't talked about it much publicly because again, like without knowing the details of the of the case, I don't want to say too much, lest I put my foot in my mouth. But it just really seems like a tremendously sad and disappointing situation. It from the initial reporting, and again, who knows how much of this is true, it really sounded like this should have been a total slam dunk. And so the fact that there is no justice is tremendously disappointing. But yeah, this this is something that definitely brought the jiu-jitsu community together in a way I haven't seen in a long time. Um, you know, everyone's so fragmented and opinionated now, but everyone to a man, woman, child was just devastated by this and just, you know, he was as far as I know, one of the good guys in the sport, um, a beloved athlete and, man, it just it really makes you think about, you know, we we talk about jiu-jitsu as this, you know, amazing self-defense vehicle. And God, we one thing that I've learned is, you know, self-defense is chaos. You don't know what the other person's going to do. You don't know if they're going to if they're armed. You don't know if they're going to come back with their buddies. Like it violence is a scary, scary thing. And I I don't know about you guys, but, you know, I got into jiu-jitsu because I wanted to learn how to fight and defend myself. But as I get older, I realize, oh, the real lesson is don't fight. You know, fighting is the absolute last resort. You only do it if there is no other choice because God, it is so dangerous to get into these situations. Speaker 3: Absolutely right. Absolutely right. Speaker 2: I I think we should move into some good things at this point. Speaker 1: I think that's fair. Speaker 3: I've got one more lighthearted. Speaker 1: That was a real downer. Speaker 3: I've got one more lighthearted bad thing about that. Speaker 1: It better be it better be lighthearted, Jesse. Speaker 3: I thought CJI 2 was a complete fucking disappointment. Um, I I feel like CJI last year did so much to kind of raise the profile of the sport. It, you know, did some interesting things with rule sets and and the the play surface. Um, and, you know, I was expecting bigger and better from Craig this year. And in a year of so much bad shit going on, I was really looking forward to that. And I personally was really let down by it. Speaker 1: I felt the same, too. I felt like the momentum kind of stalled out this year. There there was so much momentum behind this last year. Um, behind CJI. It really looked like, man, this could be a thing. You know, this could be this could become an ongoing thing that could rival ADCC. I don't I don't know now. I mean, it's still still popular and still beloved, but it really felt like they lost a lot of their momentum. Um, so I I I agree with you, man. It's kind of sad. I wish that they could have hit the same highs that they did in year one, but it felt like it was a step down. Yeah. Speaker 1: Actually, on that note, I got one more kind of sort of, I guess, lighthearted thing to talk about on the bad side, and that is UFC BJJ. What is this thing? Like I I I don't get it. All I heard first of all, no one that I know of seems to even have a clue that these events are even happening. Um, they just come and they go. Um, and it's interesting that, you know, Dana has been talking about breaking records, 9 million views. And then there's good reason to believe that apparently those views are bought and they're manufactured and maybe no one is actually watching this. So, I don't know what to make of this thing. Like I I I we have to be honest that at the end of the day, for all of the criticisms we have of the UFC, if not for the UFC, probably none of us would be training the sport, right? So, I can't say I can't say that they're all bad. But I also don't know if I like the idea of them coming in and trying to monopolize and own jiu-jitsu in the same way that they did for MMA. I I don't think that's going to be good for athletes in the sport at the end of the day. And I'm personally not super interested in their product. But I don't know. What do you guys think? Speaker 3: I've not watched any of it. Yeah. Speaker 1: Uh, and I I don't see that even no matter how much money they're throwing at it, it doesn't seem like they are going to be able to consume the sport in the same way that they did with MMA. Um, at least with the kind of brain trust that they have there right now. It doesn't seem to be moving the needle at all. I I have not had a single person walk into my school being like, I want to start training because I saw BJJ on UFC or, you know, no. I I just don't think anything's happening there. Speaker 2: CGI is still bigger than that, I think. Speaker 1: Yeah, there's still a lot of options in the sport, which is nice, but I really hope it doesn't get to the point where it's as uh conglomerated as UFC. And where it's like if you want to watch jiu-jitsu, you got to go watch UFC BJJ. That I don't think is a good thing. But let's switch over to the happy stuff. Who's got a happy thing they want to talk about? Speaker 3: Go, Mike. Speaker 2: Uh, since Jesse just shat on CJI CJI 2, uh, I'm going to give Craig Jones some props. Um, I am super impressed with his uh, handling of sex pests and his support of the victims of uh, is it Isaac Mitchell? And like I don't I don't think any of us on this call know Craig, uh, personally, I've ever talked to him. Uh, um, I've for a long time been trying to figure out how I feel about him, uh, in general. Um, but his stock went way up with me when he started just no-nonsense calling out predators. Uh, you know, and so I I have to give him kudos. That's a that's a big thing for a big name to do and I hope it becomes normalized. Speaker 1: Yep. I I would agree completely. And it's, you know, with Craig again, for a long time, I kind of haven't really known what to think about him because his whole personality based on, you know, trolling and joking around. It's always hard to know how do you read someone like that and what's real and what's not. And, you know, for fuck's sake, you know, many years ago, he went on Alex Jones. That's not a good look. How do you read someone like that? Um, but I kind of chalked that up to maybe a mistake of youth because like you said, over the last few years, this year especially, he's really started using his platform to try to make social change in the sport. Um, not just around standing up to predators in the sport, but even things like advocating against the rise of, uh, neo-Nazism in the sport, right? I mean, he has he's started to use his platform for more than just joking around. And I I love to see that. I think that's part of maturity, right? Is as you as you get older in the sport, you kind of realize at some point, like real meaning comes from trying to make change and trying to make things around you better. And I think he's kind of on that journey now. And yeah, I mean, in a sport where there's so much negative stuff to talk about, I think Craig Jones is one of the best forces in the sport for sure. Speaker 3: Speaking of good forces in the sport, Marcelo Garcia versus Lachlan Giles. Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 3: Was one of my top five this year. Um, even though the the match itself may not have been just gangbusters amazing. It was a great match. But the fact that I to me, two of the most wholesome people in the sport, um, put this together and and had this really great match and this really kind of wholesome build up, especially for those of us that were on Reddit that got to see the the AMA. It was just all of it was just really fantastic for me. Speaker 1: For those who don't know, so, um, Marcelo did a an ask me anything, an AMA on Reddit going into this. Um, said, you know, I I'm Marcelo Garcia. I'm competing against Lachlan Giles. Ask me anything. And the number one asked question was from Lachlan Giles and the question was, what is your game plan? And this led to this back and forth where Marcelo was like, you know my game plan, but you don't need it because you're great. You're amazing. This is going to be awesome. And it's like, Jesus, these these two are like the most it it is like the most wholesome thing in jiu-jitsu I've seen in in a long time. You've got two beloved legends of the sport, right? Um, kind of perpetual underdogs in their time, but also still absolute greats. You know, you can never say for sure, but they've always come across as clean athletes, right? They've always come across as trying to advocate for and do the right thing. Marcelo coming back from a battle with cancer, right? Like this this was just a feel-good. Speaker 3: You couldn't have written a better story. Speaker 1: It was just a feel-good moment. This is kind of like what, um, you know, when I when I first got into martial arts, I I used to love the like 2000s era of the UFC, which is where it was growing beyond the point of just being bar thugs trying to beat each other up. And it wasn't yet at the point now where it's just like kind of toxic shithole. It was kind of in like the pre-Conor McGregor era where it was really just people who loved martial arts and they would go out there and fight and put it on the line and hug afterwards. And it was like a celebration of the sport. And that's how I felt about, um, Marcelo versus Lachlan. I thought it was great. Speaker 2: That's awesome. Speaker 1: Yep. Mike, what about you? Speaker 2: Oh, let's see. I said Craig Jones, you said Giles uh versus Garcia. Um, I'm going to give us a little bit of kudos here. I have been super impressed with the amount of support we've gotten uh, in the BJJ community for Fighting Matters, for what we're doing here. Um, I remember almost a year ago when we started this, um, I remember I was gung-ho, but I wasn't sure how it was going to be received. And we've definitely gotten some shitty comments, mostly about our age. Uh, but, you know, overall, the number of people that have commented on our shows, that have reached out to me personally, uh, talking about how refreshing it is to have something like this in the BJJ space. It's been amazing and it makes me want to keep doing this. I want to say thanks to everybody for listening. We've got your backs. Um, and that's one of my favorite things of 2022 is is knowing that people find value in what we're doing here. Speaker 1: Yeah, same here. I mean, I find this this kind of material to be super motivating to make because I know that, you know, martial arts, jiu-jitsu, politics, activism, it's a very small intersection of people who want to hear this stuff, but it's also an important intersection because it matters a lot that there are voices who kind of speak up against the things in the sport that we don't like to see and there aren't enough people doing it. So I I've been super heartened to get all hear and see all of the support that we have for doing this. It's not easy to do, right? You do something like this and you get a lot of shit from a lot of shitty people. And so it really does it really is appreciated when we get nice comments from people saying thank you for saying this stuff because no one else seems to be. Speaker 3: Yeah, it's on my list, too. Speaker 1: I got to change a pace here. I don't think anyone else has this one, but I wanted to say it. Um, for good things in the sport this year, Chris Wojcik. Um, Chris is just a good, solid dude. He is really the only person I know in the sport of jiu-jitsu who is trying to bring the written word back. He's got a really popular Substack called The Grappler's Diary. Um, but, you know, he's always been like not super well-known name in the jiu-jitsu space. Um, but in the last year and a bit, I think it probably started with his ADCC run, which I can't remember if that a while back. Um, the one where we sponsored him. Uh, but anyway, it was, um, that was kind of his coming out party. And he's just over this last year, he's been consistently featured in high-level tournaments and competitions. His output on The Grappler's Diary has been great. I've never heard anyone say a cross word from him. He's an incredible guy to collaborate with, so generous with his time. Also a great mind for the sport. I mean, when we talk about the Wojlock, that's his baby, right? That's, um, that kind of came up because he started ripping through tournaments using that move. So he's an he's an innovator as well. And it's just the just the kind of person that I like to see in the sport. So I a lot of the time, folks like that, they don't get the attention that they deserve. And he seems to be getting the attention he deserves, and that makes me happy. Speaker 2: Yay, Chris. Speaker 1: Go, Chris. Speaker 2: I just a few weeks ago, uh, one of our coaches taught the Wojlock. So, thank you, Chris. Speaker 1: It's vile, man. It's vile. Have you Oh, my God. Um, it it is it is not a fun position to be caught in. Speaker 3: Well, you know, we do our best. When I'm Leglocktober, everything anything goes, you know. Speaker 1: That's awesome. That's not an old person friendly submission. That's awesome. Speaker 3: I I read his stuff on Substack. I'm a huge fan. Um, I wish I'd gotten an opportunity to train with him when he was here in Louisville. Uh, I had other stuff going on. Uh, but certainly hope I get an opportunity to train with him at some point. For sure. Speaker 1: Nice. Anything else on your list, Jesse? Speaker 3: Uh, yeah, this one I I guess I'll just have to take the lumps for being self-congratulatory, maybe for all three of us. But I've got uh, the BJJ Mental Models camps on my list. Um, so did I. Yeah, these things were hugely impactful for my 2022. Um, and really added a lot of joy for that for me and and I feel like our community, the the people that were able to attend. Um, so for those of you that missed it last year, this year, uh, there's we got more stacked up next year. Uh, and that I think are going to be just as great if not better. Um, but the opportunity to kind of travel to different places in the country, uh, see see our friends, see the community, see the people we're talking to on Discord all the time and don't have an opportunity to regularly train with and and brainstorm and see other coaches and it it's just it it's such an amazing event. Um, that I I feel like people are crazy for not doing more of this kind of thing. Speaker 1: And for those of us in Canada, I am trying to get a Canadian one going. I'm just trying to figure out where to do it. I kind of almost don't want to do Vancouver because selfishly, I want an excuse to go somewhere. And so I've kind of been thinking about maybe Ontario or Quebec or something could be fun. But yeah, I I love these events. I love getting together with people. It's one of the the most fun things about doing this stuff. Speaker 2: I I will make a trip up north to visit you when you do the the uh, Canadian camp. Speaker 1: Just bring your parka, your maple syrup. Um, you're going to have a real hard time getting across the border unless you dress up like a mountie. They're really anal about that. So, Speaker 2: Okay. Speaker 1: Do we have to Do we have to bring our own ice for the igloo or is that something Speaker 2: What if I wear my old hockey gear? Will they let me cross then? Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, yeah, they'll uh, you'll blend right in. Speaker 2: Okay. I don't have to be a mountie. I can be a Speaker 3: They won't even check the passport. Speaker 2: Right. Right. Right. Speaker 1: Yep. Um, Mike, any other things on the nice list that you want to talk about? Speaker 2: I mean, you guys stole them all, but no, that I know. that's okay. I knew we were going to have a lot of uh, uh, intersection there. Um, so no, I have nothing else nice. I'm all grumpy the rest of the recording. Speaker 1: Well said. Well, I I got one more, I guess. Um, if we're going to shout out individuals, and I think you guys will agree, Beatrice Jin. Um, she's been a long-time friend of I think everyone on this call. She's been like an OG supporter of our work at BJJ Mental Models. I think she's been like a premium member for her entire adult life, basically. And, um, she I I always knew that like, she's going to have a breakout moment at some part at some point. And just recently, you know, she got her black belt. Um, and at at black belt, she's one of the top-ranked female black belts in her division. So it's been amazing seeing that. And also, um, if you have seen, um, humorous reels of a woman with a whiteboard on Instagram chalking up jiu-jitsu stuff, that's Beatrice. And so she's also managed to kind of find her voice as a creator and influencer and really build up her reputation that way as well. So, I think 2022, it really felt like this was the year where a lot of her hard work kind of came together. Um, and we've had the chance to promote her and get her name out there. We've actually we're doing a course with her actually that I'm going to be launching early in the new year. So, um, it's been awesome to see all of that come together for her. So that's definitely one of the the nice things that I think happened in this last year. Speaker 2: Let's go, B. Let's go, B. That's awesome. Speaker 1: I I met her the first time several years ago at Master Worlds. It was the first time, uh, I went to Master Worlds and I knew there were a bunch of people from BJJ Mental Models Discord going, so we arranged a a meetup and like I hung out with Kathy Hubble and met met uh, Wentworth there and met Beatrice. And I think she was a blue belt at the time. And like to see her just skyrocket up has been amazing. And when I was at Worlds this past year, uh, um, I had been messaging with her on Discord and like, hey, if you're here, we should at least say hi. And one of my friends, uh, from our gym, she was like, oh my God, you know, Beatrice Jin? Can you introduce me? Can you I was like, she's hit her celebrity moment. That's awesome. Speaker 1: I'm so happy to to see that. Um, God, I remember when she first uh, connected with us and she was on our premium service and I'd be BJJ Mental Models and we did a roll review for her. And I had, um, I think I've still got the footage. Um, I had Dominica Obelenyte, the multi-time world champ under Marcelo, do a roll review for Beatrice. And it was a competition match in Beatrice where Beatrice was in this woman's guard and tried to triangle Beatrice. And Beatrice literally just picked her up and just held her in the air. Like Beatrice is unbelievably strong. And just held her in the air until this woman basically gave up. And Dominica's reaction to watching this happen was so fucking funny. I should see if I can find that video and get Beatrice's permission to share it out. Speaker 3: Put somebody in air jail is really great. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I'm not strong enough to do that, especially with, you know, recovering from shoulder surgery. But seeing Beatrice do it is is hilarious. You know, if someone's going to triangle you, you make them pay for it. Just hold them in the air until they get embarrassed. It's the best escape. Speaker 2: Exactly. Speaker 1: Yep. Awesome. Well, guys, anything else? We want to put a nail in the coffin of this fucked up, weird year. Anything else for 2022 that we want to talk about? Speaker 3: I'm ready to put it behind us. Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. It's been it has been a hell of a year. I mean, we saw a lot of stuff happen that I uh, I didn't think we would ever see happen in my lifetime. And, um, but it looks like I I I I'm sort of optimistic. It feels like maybe, um, the tides are rising against all of that and we're seeing a lot of pushback now that wasn't there eight months ago. So, I don't know. I I think there's reason to be optimistic and I think it's just super important that if, you know, like with anything, if you don't like what you see in the world today, the most important thing you can do is take action and speak up and do something about it, right? And, um, that's always been what we've tried to do here and thanks to everyone who supports us in doing it. Speaker 3: We'll be here next year. Speaker 1: We got your voice using it. Yeah, presuming we don't die, which is possible because we're really old. As I am repeatedly reminded. Speaker 2: So old. Any second. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Okay. It's true. We we could just we might just drop dead on this call for all I know. We better finish this just in case, you know. Speaker 2: Right. Right. Exactly. Speaker 1: We'll wrap it up. Yeah. I I got to take my Metamucil and take out my dentures and go to bed. Good call, guys. Well, thanks a lot for doing this. This one was super fun. Speaker 3: Thanks, guys. Speaker 2: Thanks. Happy New Year. Speaker 1: We'll see you next year.