Ep. 335: The PLAY Framework, feat. Erin Herle

Speaker 1: Hey everybody, before we get started this week, I have huge news. She actually did it. We're pleased to announce that Beatrice Jin, top-ranked women's competitor in North America and long-time BJJ Mental Models premium community member has published her first ever course with us, exclusive to BJJ Mental Models. It's called Stop Being Nice. It's a three-part audio series designed to solve real mindset problems that regular folks experience in jiu-jitsu. If you struggle to be aggressive and competitive in jiu-jitsu, you'll find the solutions here. If you're already a BJJ Mental Models premium subscriber, you've already got access, and if you are not, good news, you can get it now and get your first week free. Go to BJJ Mental Models dot com and check it out today. [Music] Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to BJJ Mental Models episode 335. I'm Steve Kwan. BJJ Mental Models is your guide to a conceptual and intelligent jiu-jitsu approach. And I'm here today with one of my favorite mindset coaches. I've got Aaron Hurley on the line. Aaron, welcome back. How's it going? Speaker 2: Hello, hello. Thank you, thank you. Glad to be back. This is what, my eighth time, I think, recording with you? Speaker 1: I was gonna say, you know, normally this is the part where I ask if you want to do an introduction, but I figured that, you know, as we get into double digits, is that really necessary anymore? Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I can give it quick. You know, I'm a jiu-jitsu black belt, came up, spent my 20s in competition, was obsessed, saw the best and worst parts of the sport, became a certified mental performance consultant, got a master's in sport and performance psychology, and I now work with clients mostly of the combat sports nature, and I help them compete at their best or enjoy their sport more, or just get out of their own heads to be able to do the thing. And I'm now trying to publish more content and eventually publish research on the effects of mental skills in the combat sports space, especially jiu-jitsu, which is, I'm a jiu-jitsu fanatic, lifer, who's gone from, oh my God, jiu-jitsu is the only important thing in my life, to now I get to just train and like beat up my friends and fixate on more of the mental side. And which is why I'm so grateful to always have this as an outlet because your people are my people. Speaker 1: Amazing. Well, this is as good a segue as any because it is in fact some of your more recent posts that gave me the idea to have this chat. So, let's talk about this. We wanted to talk about something that I don't think many people have talked about, at least not in the in the right framing in jiu-jitsu, and that is the importance of laughter and humor. But all this came about because of a social post that you dropped recently that really kind of inspired me. Why don't you maybe introduce that first, what you said and kind of the thinking behind this. Speaker 2: Well, it's a book that I have put out, and, you know, of course, there's a funny story behind that. It's called If You're Not Laughing, You're Losing, and it's the role of humor in high-performance settings that allows people to perform at their best in a looser, more playful way that is not so stressful and full of pressure to perform based on results and outcomes. So, it's kind of just a zoomed out, and I was able to kind of see the way that I was using humor in my own competition, in my own stressful situations in life, and going through trauma, and now I help others, you know, achieve what they need to and get out of their own way. So, humor is just something that has been natural to me, and now I'm like, well, let's analyze it and operationalize it, shall we say, into a framework, and that framework is called the Play framework. Speaker 1: But Aaron, isn't jiu-jitsu serious business? Aren't we death warriors who have to honor the samurai Bushido code and be serious at all times? Speaker 2: Well, you know, the ironic part is that I have many, many, many sad memories singed into my brain where I thought my world was over based on something that happened in jiu-jitsu, because I was one of those people that put all of my eggs in one basket and put myself in the best rooms and just tried my absolute best and did what I could with what I had, but at the same time went through a lot of just trying to figure out why my brain works the way it works, but also that it's not a cookie-cutter way of coaching for most situations, even if you're making world champions, it's not necessarily sustainable. And so I have this very big holistic approach now and humanistic approach, and I also, I became, let's say, I became a more neurodivergent through jiu-jitsu because I did not get my ADHD diagnosis until I was a blue belt. So, that's kind of important too, that now I understand that people learn differently and people are very different and they have different emotional needs, but if you can equip them with the tools to change their inner critic to an inner coach, then it makes it a lot easier for people to advocate for themselves and empower themselves on the mat and to achieve what they want to despite this this struggle and sacrifice as a badge of honor in order to validate a win. Speaker 1: Now, let's talk about how this might be perceived here because there is an element of the jiu-jitsu community that takes everything we do deadly serious. And, you know, there was that post, that reel that someone dropped on Instagram a while ago that went viral for all the wrong reasons where some instructor effectively said, you know what I hate about jiu-jitsu? I hate it when the girls come in and they giggle on the mats because it ruins the vibe and. First of all, I thought it was very telling that this coach felt the need to explain that it was the girls who was doing this. I thought that was an interesting distinction he felt the need to make. But also, you can imagine the kind of backlash that that kind of comment gets because everyone who's ever trained at a at a great gym culture knows humor is part of that. If you walk into a gym and people aren't laughing and having fun, what the fuck are you there for? And I'd love to maybe hear your thoughts on kind of the culture of jiu-jitsu, how people sometimes tend to take it incredibly seriously, and why humor actually makes not just for a better culture, but for better training. Speaker 2: Why do you have to hit me with that? That is so loaded. There's so much to touch on here. You're just going to have to keep me focused on reaching all of those answers. So, I came up initially under, you know, a Hamalo, and he is a very playful guy. Hamalo is one of the most lovable people. I learned through a lot of different games and variability, and it was just his mastermind of this is what makes good jiu-jitsu, and he had a core group of us because this was back in the day. And it was awesome. He just kind of adapted as he went, and sometimes he would use his own training as a way to dictate what he would teach us, once you got out of that like kind of Gracie Barra basics foundational curriculum. And then I went to Cobrinha's, and Cobrinha's was like, you know, this is a high level, and he's, you know, created these champions, and he's very systematic. Like, he's the guy that's going to go read all of these textbooks and then immediately try to apply them. And we would have no idea what books he was reading or anything, but we knew that he was in there in his lab, in his office, reading and trying to help us. And then under Marcelo, Marcelo kind of was a more chill human being. He was very strict in terms of, you know, being present, but knowing that if you had a smile on your face, like, it didn't mean that you weren't working hard. And so, I came up as like this gifted kid who had undiagnosed ADHD. Things were always harder. Executive functioning is difficult, planning, being able to understand how long a task is going to take, doing things that I'm not particularly interested in or engaged in. And so, for me, play is almost essential, and a lot of neurodivergents, or at least ADHD, would probably agree that you need to find the fun in it, you need to make it interesting. And so, that's why if I'm doing the dishes, for example, I will put on a podcast like BJJ Mental Models. If I'm folding laundry or even if I'm just doing research at home, like, I'm going to make it interesting. I'm going to play music, I'm going to either body double with someone, or I'm going to have my mom on the phone or something to make it more enjoyable. And so, a lot of my own research, but also my lived experience come from pleasure is not just superficial. Of course, there is a sliding scale for everything. You know, too much humor is like you don't take anything seriously, you're self-deprecating, you use it to ridicule others because you think you're superior, whatever. There's obviously the right usage, right timing. But if you have a place that is just no music, can't talk, it's not meant to really go to be fun or engaging, and it's just meant to like drill, to kill, and do all those things, that's when it gets really, really hard. And so, I found myself when I had moved back to to LA and started training at Cobrinha's again, he has this very militant way of doing things, and that's very hard for me. And so, I needed dopamine, I needed enrichment, let's say. Like, I'm, you know, one of those animals in the cages that are just like, please provide me with toys and snacks all the time. And I would go search out different training environments. I spent two weeks at Lucas Lepri's, I spent two weeks at JT Torres'. I would go to Brazil, I'd do a seminar in Iceland. Like, I was just off kind of doing my own thing and trying to find enjoyment in it. But it was also from the outside seen as not enough, not focused enough, too interested in external validation, not wanting to do hard work. And eventually what it turned into was me being told that I don't work hard enough in the even though I I struggle so hard, right? So, I think having my efforts be so invalidating, when I started in my master's program and I learned about effort over outcome, it was such a game changer. And what people really think about effort over outcome is they think of participation medals and they think of just youth sports. And that's where it can start, but it's the fact that if you don't reward effort and you only reward outcome, you end up invalidating the experiences of that person, but you also then may develop a learned helplessness, knowing that like I try so hard and no matter how hard I try, I still don't make a difference. And so, I see that a lot in jiu-jitsu clients where they do feel like everything they do is just wrong or that it's not technically correct, even if it achieved the right result. And they're very particular about the way things are seen from the outside, and they get over their heads and they're overthinking, and there's perfectionism. So, that's why I wrote this book and and published it because I want people to understand that humor is levity. Humor is lightheartedness. So, when you start taking yourself too seriously, it actually helps you zoom out and realize that like we do a sport that no one cares about. Like, no one knows what we do. And I have some interesting stories on that perspective, but that's I think I covered mostly everything in terms of my experience with the culture. I don't want to speak on the culture as like a judgmental like pedestal because I'm not in it anymore. And the only feedback I get, besides being at a tournament, you know, here and there, is either social media or directly through the experiences of my clients. And so, that's what I'm speaking from. So, I wanted to mostly just speak on something that I can truly back up because I experienced it myself, but I stopped competing around the pandemic. So, like, take that I'm mostly speaking from like 2009 to 2018. Speaker 1: Amazing, Aaron. Well, thank you for that. And something you touched on there might be worth unpacking this just for people's benefit if they haven't heard the term. Learned helplessness. Why don't you explain what that is and how this can manifest itself in jiu-jitsu sometimes? Speaker 2: Yeah, so it came actually from positive psychology because, you know, you can tell someone like, just tell yourself you could do it. And just, you know, you've got this, and, you know, just those rah-rah-rah toxic or superficial positivity. And they did a study, I believe it was Martin Seligman, but I could be wrong. He's like the godfather of positive psychology. I believe it was monkeys and dogs. They put them in a cage where they were like zapped with electricity, and they had nowhere to go. And no matter what they did, whether they whined, or they pissed themselves, or they, you know, just stayed still, all of this these stress responses, they tried to get out, they whatever. Anything that they did, it would just be at random intervals that they would just get shocked. And after so much time, they opened the cage. There was there was a way out. And the animals didn't leave because they said, why? Because all my other efforts didn't work. So, why try? And it's this really sad experiment where people who repeatedly try but don't see any improvement or growth or validation in their efforts, they eventually see themselves as helpless. And so, when you have this happen in jiu-jitsu, it might look like people abandoning things that are actually working because they think that it's just like, oh, well, this isn't working. I think of blue belts working on passes, right? And it's like, man, if you just would have sat there a little longer instead of just resetting. It can also look like just not trying at all or overestimating opponents or partners or fortune-telling, like, ah, I'm just going to I'm going to suck at this anyways. I'm just going to get my guard passed anyways. Or mind-reading, like, oh, this person thinks I suck anyways, so even if I were to try to change their mind, like, I I can't anyways. So, there's a lot of ways that it can actually surface. And I found that one of the most basic ways to bring people back from that is to make their objectives and tasks and training very small. Maybe it starts out with, if you can be in a in guard and if you can make someone have to post their hand on the mat, that is competence because that's intention. You wanted them to lose balance. There's your sign that you are accomplishing something, even if it is small. So, we talk about coaching in terms of like, if someone's, hey, uh, pass the guard, sweep, and it's like these large objectives. People aren't going to see themselves doing that because there's so many things and steps that need to happen in order for that to be accomplished. And so, they need to focus on what is that small step that you can do to feel like you are making a difference and not just reacting. Speaker 1: Makes sense, absolutely. It touches on um, some things I've talked about and worried about in the past myself. You brought up fortune-telling. I've always referred to that as kind of thinking defensively where you're starting to make excuses for things before they even happen. It's a very common trait and problem that you see in jiu-jitsu where people will, they'll kind of act like they're being self-deprecating, but really what they're doing is they're giving themselves an out. They're kind of excusing their future performance before they even try, which is a very unfortunate thing because that kind of holds you back from actually giving your best attempt. Speaker 2: Right, that's um, self-handicapping, which is a form of self-sabotaging. So, if you can make it so that you did not try your best, you don't have to face your own limitations. Or you don't have to face the realistic fact that outcomes are not entirely in your control, and that there are, you know, biased refs, there are refs not paying attention, there are underpaid tired refs, there are people who don't understand the rules, there's all of these certain conditions that we cannot control in our environment, in the circumstances of competing. And so, it sometimes is like a weird way to blame everything but themselves, or sometimes people will also go the other way and they'll blame everything on themselves. And that's just attribution theory of what you deem as success versus failure, which is a whole other way that someone might have a cognitive distortion as they're considered, I think it's just counseling and irrational beliefs and cognitive reframing and, yeah, along those lines, it's definitely some a protective measure, but humor can also be used as a protective measure. In fact, Freud actually said it was the most, he said it was like a healthy, most healthy defensive mechanism. And so, humor can be used as many tools. It can be used to manipulate, it can be used to control people, right? Like that passive-aggressive, snide, kind of sharp humor that can show intellect, but also can show the dark side of someone and also make it a psychologically unsafe environment for people. And so, humor is this weird thing that like people use that don't they don't really notice how or why, but it's a benefit. And so, the way that I've been able to figure this out, and this is from the, I think it's the humor styles questionnaire. So, there's a humor styles questionnaire, and there's four subscales. So, the one that I am referring to is the self-enhancing humor because it's used as a coping mechanism. But they've also found that there's self-defeating, which is avoidance or denial. There's also aggressive, which is the sarcastic one that I'm talking about with manipulative and the ridicule. And then there's affiliative, which is social cohesion, which is like almost like fawning or trying to build rapport, which I do with my clients. Speaker 1: Got it, got it. I love how you brought up that there are different types of humor, and not all of them are equally good. I think that's a really important distinction. Something that I have heard people say as kind of an excuse for making really awful jokes sometimes that kind of target people unfairly is they'll say things like, well, you know, humor's important, we got to, you know, it brings us together, but then they will use the kind of humor that is really basically just bullying someone, right? They'll be kind of mocking somebody else. And I don't think that's the kind of laughter that we're talking about here, right? We're talking more about kind of good-faith humor, and I think you touched on that very well. Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny because I looked up the history, and it was back in the 16th and 17th century, it was called the superiority theory, which was that's like that mean girls ridiculing others, being sarcastic, and saying things that were really mean, but saying, oh, it's just in jest. And then it wasn't until the 18th century when it started socially to be viewed as more unrefined and vulgar to be that way. So, the good-natured kind that we're talking about wasn't until the 18th century. But I read this really great definition, which there's so many different definitions of humor. By the Victorian era, it became a virtue, which I think is kind of what it can be seen as now, like it's a personality trait, it's charm, it makes people gravitate toward you. But the definition that I enjoyed back in the day was it's sympathetic, tolerant, and benevolent amusement at the imperfections of the world and the foibles of human nature generally. Speaker 1: Very well said, I like that quote. Speaker 2: I do. It's sympathetic, right? It should be used to bond, not to divide or create division. It's tolerant, so it's not that you're being, you know, racist or prejudiced and then hiding behind your humor. It's benevolent. Like, laughing, I think, is a sign of respect. Like, ha ha ha, you made a funny. Here you are, here's your applause, right? And so, it's benevolent in that way to validate someone. I love that word validate. I guess I keep on saying it, but it's true. And amusement. And that's kind of where I came from with the amusement of the imperfections, but I like the absurd because we do something that is really, really absurd. And you could say it so many different ways, but like, I like to say, yeah, I'm in a sport where I roll around with sweaty dudes, and it's pay to play. Like, I have to sign up for tournaments and and I get maybe one match if I lose, right? Except like, you know, certain other ones that aren't single elimination. I pay a good amount of money every month to train with people, and I'm physically codependent on three people that I probably would never hang out with outside of the mats. And like, it just goes on and on. And not to even talk about the actual thing that we're doing, which is very sensual and intimate. And so, I this goes back to my fart joke of like, you know, there's always a bit of truth in every joke. And yes, if you're not farting, you're not trying hard enough, you're not giving enough effort in training. But that is where I find the levity of this very awkward situation, and coming from a female who did not have many female training partners, I have to laugh or I'm going to cringe, or I'm going to ball up in disgust. So, similar to like the dark humor that like firefighters and like first responders develop, that was me having to cope with wanting to get good at jiu-jitsu, but only having hairy men to roll with. Speaker 1: Sounds about right. Speaker 2: Right? Unfortunately, that was my experience. But laughing about it instead of taking ourselves too seriously, that came more in the form of self-esteem later on because as I started competing more and you get more expectations, like, it's interesting that humor can put expectations just and flip them, right? And this I think would be a good segue into the Play framework if you're ready for it. Speaker 1: I am absolutely ready for it. Bring it on. Speaker 2: So, Play, the P stands for perspective shift. And what it does is I say zoom out a lot because in acceptance and commitment therapy, as part of psychological flexibility, which is my goal for many people because in this dynamic, complex sport, we need to be adaptable and to be able to improvise. We have self as context, which is this idea that we have the both the the in it, the feeling person, the POV, the, you know, the person that's in flow, the person that is experiencing the emotions. And then there's our rational side that is the brain making up the construction of our all of our signals, right? And it's making up the narrative and the story. And it's the ability to change that perspective by zooming out into that 30,000-foot view. So, when you're in the bullpen, and I'll use myself as an example, I feel like I am fighting the Garthok from the Coneheads. And I'm sitting there, and I'm watching all these body parts go. My whole planet is in this arena just staring down, watching this Garthok just like rip these people to shreds. And here I am about to go out there. So, I always felt like in the bullpen for some reason that I was about to meet my maker. But if I had a tool that said, why don't we kind of zoom out? And I realized like, wow, I'm a blue belt. No one cares what I'm doing. I won't care what happens here because as I go on in the belts and move on in my life, like, this will be a blip in the memories. And I have nothing on the line because my parents and my my sibling, she loves me, and they love me, and I have enough Instagram followers, it's fine. I don't need more. And this is ridiculous that I would feel this way in this sport. And so, you can make it kind of like this serious, or you can make it just humor, which is like, maybe I'll go out there and shit my pants. Like, wouldn't that be great? You know, what if that happened? So, I kind of would lean into the absurdity now. But being able to actualize yourself as like a different perspective and take on not the perspective of someone else, but yourself, but scan out and realize the how non-drastic that this decision of this tournament is in terms of your entire life. Speaker 1: I love that framing tactic. I actually just did a newsletter on this a while ago. Advice that I've heard from very good coaches is that if you feel like you're just you're terrified about the prospect of loss or something bad happening, or you're dwelling on the what-ifs, and if you're worrying too much, it's a good idea to reflect on what the impact of this moment will be off into the future. Is this really something that is going to matter, you know, 10 years from now? If you lose this tournament, is it really going to matter? And when you frame things over the long term like that, you realize that most things are not nearly as serious as you're interpreting them in the moment, and that gives you permission to kind of let go. But on the flip side, if you realize that, you know what? No, this does actually matter. This is one of those rare times where it really does matter 10 years from now. Cool, that's still useful information that you figured that out because now you can start putting together a plan to be as prepared in the moment as you possibly can. But I love that framing idea of thinking about how this is really going to impact the trajectory of your life because most of the time, people who really worry about this stuff in jiu-jitsu, whether it be due to youth or inexperience in other things, they often worry way too much. Am I good enough at this? Am I going to win? How am I going to perform at this tournament that doesn't really matter? And it's very easy to ruin the joy in jiu-jitsu for yourself, right? To make it so that it's something that you're not enjoying, whereas really enjoyment is, it's got to be one of the most important things. I mean, we know that to be good at anything, you have to be consistent. You know, success in jiu-jitsu is not just about raw talent or skill. A lot of it is luck, and luck comes from consistency. If you want to get good at anything over time, and if you want to find the right opportunities, you need to be consistent. And the only way to really be consistent is to enjoy what you're doing. So, I always tell people, if you're having a miserable time training jiu-jitsu, I think you really need to solve for that first before you worry about whether you're using the right high-level training approaches or whether you're at the best competition gym. You have to enjoy it first and foremost because you will not have the staying power unless you do. Speaker 2: My experiences with sacrificing and struggling for jiu-jitsu made it very hard for me to enjoy the process because I did not find joy in a lot of it. I just kind of went, well, this is just what has to be done. So, I put a lot of expenses, let's say, on my happiness and my credit card in order to do the thing and do it right as I was told, you know, like eat healthy, train every day, twice a day, work out, do drills, do this, do that, watch tape. And I was doing the whole thing, but I was also driving 30 miles on four freeways through Hollywood to get there and have to stay there all day while also taking a full-time load of college classes and also working for Gracie Meg and also, you know, like navigating my mental health. And I wasn't enjoying the individual process, so it made it very hard for me to not fixate on outcomes because the outcomes built that pressure or the process built up the pressure that the outcome had to happen in order to make those sacrifices worth it. And that's a really hard place to be, and it kind of fuels a lot of my studies in the sense of being motivated by the fear of loss versus being motivated by the approach of success, and also even the fear of success and what that might look like in terms of higher expectations and more responsibility and might be easy to get through certain matches and fights when people don't have big names, but then they start throwing those big opportunities at you and you got to be ready. And if you're not truly authentic and believe in yourself, you're going to crack and it's not going to be sustainable, and it might have nothing to do with your skill, but just the lack of sustainability and you burn yourself out. And being neurodivergent, I burn myself out a lot. I would have times because I was doing so much for so long, spreading myself thin because I just had to move, I had to keep going, I had to keep going. And I was on Concerta at the time too. So, it was just like, okay, be productive, be productive. And if I wasn't productive, then, you know, who am I? And I'm rotting and whatever. And so, rest wasn't really and recovery weren't really prioritized. It was more like, you could do more, you could do more, you could always do more to the point of like overtraining. And so, people think that like, oh, she's just like a funny person and she likes to laugh a lot, and that's why of course she would talk about humor. But humor was a lifesaver for me. Like, humor, you know, the whole theatrical like drama of like happiness and sadness and how they're so related and like tragedy and stuff. And I think it really bores out of tragedy and having to go through really tough things and having humor as the only way to navigate something that feels very uncertain and scary. And I think jiu-jitsu competition can feel that way for a lot of people where just the uncertainty triggers, you know, uncertainty in life and just fear response and stress response can pull their nervous system out of whack, and their body doesn't know the difference between an abusive ex and an opponent at a blue belt master three featherweight championship. You know, it's incredible how primal humor can feel. Like, we laugh for a reason, and people don't understand exactly what happens. I I did look up the neuro the neurology of it and the the neuroscience of like what parts of the brain are activated, and it's like five different places or more that are all lit up when people laugh. And so, it's a phenomenon. It truly is. And I think that there's more to it than just like, oh, if you're funny, you're not serious, or using it as a crutch. Because I think when you really focus on the joy in life, you seek joy and you make that your purpose, it makes a lot of the tragedy and unnecessary bullshit in our daily lives much more tolerable. Speaker 1: Well said, Aaron, well said. Now, you talked about your experience with neurodivergence in the sport. Of course, very common in jiu-jitsu, right? Jiu-jitsu tremendously popular for people on the spectrum. And something that I would like to get your perspective on here. I have always felt that many coaches in jiu-jitsu make the mistake of coaching for people who are exactly like them. And I think a lot of this is not necessarily from a place of maliciousness or anything, it's just ignorance. People come into jiu-jitsu because they love jiu-jitsu. They get a job coaching jiu-jitsu because they love jiu-jitsu. They don't necessarily spend as much time learning coaching and pedagogy and emotional intelligence. And so, what happens sometimes is you get gyms where really the culture, it caters to the coach, right? The coach builds a culture that reflects who they are personally and what they want, and it isn't always the most welcoming to people who are different simply because the coach never put any thought or effort into how to cater to those people, or do I have to compromise or open the tent a bit more so that we can draw in more people? I think sometimes that can be a reason why people struggle to find the laughter in the sport is because they feel like they're the black sheep in jiu-jitsu, they're the odd person out. They're different from everyone else. It's very common to feel like everyone is amazing at this except me, you know, I'm not an athlete, I'm not strong, I don't have good fast-twitch muscle fibers. It's easy for people to beat themselves up over this because they feel everyone around them is so much better than them, or that they just fit in better into the culture. What are your thoughts on dealing with that situation, both from a like the student's perspective and even from the coach's perspective? How do we knock that wall down so that we can make everyone feel welcome and share some of that laughter in the gym? Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, when I think about the coaching aspect of how I want to help coaches, it's to create a more not just inclusive space, but a more psychologically safe space. And when we're talking about breaking limbs and choking people unconscious, we're rarely thinking about, you know, safety, we're thinking about like weaponization, you know? I think in the book I even wrote that, you know, how to use humor as a weapon, right? Weaponizing humor. But really, I think the the aspect of jiu-jitsu that I love and hate is the hierarchy and the top-down approach that whatever the coach does is how it goes. And I have a great example. One of the coaches that I learned under sometimes couldn't uh be there to coach me or someone else. But I would have teammates and training partners that would be just as capable to coach me, but they decided to sit back. They felt like, well, if this coach can't do it, then who am I to one up him or try to undermine his authority? And so, I would go and compete knowing that I needed the support, and I'd look and see people that just like seven rows back instead of engaging. And maybe this was just my interpretation of it. But when you have a very top-down approach of like, I am the leader, and whether they even demanded it or not, sometimes just their accolades can make people put them on pedestals. But it doesn't create a psychologically safe environment where the psyche, I guess, and the safety of your students are cared for or even listened to. And so, when you go with this traditional aspect of, you know, black belts are more important than brown belts, and brown belts are more important than purple belts, and purple belts are more important than blue belts, you get into a situation where people are not seen as human, which is why we had that whole campaign, uh, a few, I don't remember when, but years back that was like, white belts are people too. I can't even like say it because it's just sounds so ridiculous. That you have to recognize that people on the mat are humans and not just valued by their belt. And so, when we talk about psychological safety, it really came from workplace, right? An employee and authority and management and all that. And so, when it comes down to the ability to create a better psychologically safe environment, it's about learning. And can you make mistakes? When your coach comes over to you, is it, oh God, thank God you're here. I have so many questions. Or is it, oh my God, I can't mess this up. I can't mess this up. And if I do mess this up, they might make a comment. And if they make a comment, I'll just be like, huh, that was my bad side. You know, and like, I'm okay. But if you feel like they're judging you, or if you feel like you cannot contribute and they don't want to hear, you know, your feedback or suggestions because it's their way or the highway, or you can't ask questions. And it's a lot more insidious than people think because there rarely be this like, you guys can't ask questions. It's not going to be like that, but it's going to be where the coach or whoever's teaching, instructor says, okay, does everybody have any questions? And nobody feels safe to raise their hand because they're afraid of being seen as stupid or judged, or that the coach themselves are going to feel, you know, have their ego, I guess, pushed around because they are questioning the way that they're doing things. And so, the ego aspect of coaches is one thing, but just also leaning on the tradition of regurgitation of this is the way that I was taught, and therefore I'm going to kind of pass it down without much critical thinking. It worked for me, so it should work for everyone else. And the aspect of neurodivergence I've found is if I just treat everybody as if they're neurodivergent, as if they have other belief systems than me, and understand the world differently than me, and make connections and process information differently than me, then I'm going to be much more inclusive than making assumptions that everyone has the same exact skill set or baseline talent as everybody else. Speaker 1: Something that people will might be thinking, especially, I don't know, older people or competitors, they're constantly worried about the sport getting watered down and losing the effectiveness of it. You hear this all the time when people are talking about rule sets. Is the rule set encouraging us to use techniques that distance us from the street effectiveness of the sport, or is it making weaker people? And there may be those who hear what you just said, and they might think, well, jiu-jitsu is about making people strong, and it's for strong people, and we shouldn't lower our standard to accommodate people who can't hack it here. And this kind of gets into the topic, I guess, of psychological safety, which you discussed. But why don't you maybe expand on that and explain why that's incorrect thinking? Why is it good to actually open up the sport and invite more people in, even if they don't fit our stereotype of like that warrior mentality? Speaker 2: God, this is such a hard question to answer. I don't have an answer. I don't appreciate gatekeeping, and I think that's what that is. And when I started, the old first time I ever saw jiu-jitsu was at the 2008 Pans. I'm very spoiled having grown up in California where my first gym was just like, oh, hey, that's just Hamalo. Oh, wait, Pans is just an hour away. Oh, cool, I guess I'll do Worlds too. Um, so when I was introduced to it, I assumed that everybody competed, and I saw a black and brown belt female match, and I was like, this is so cool. I always roughhouse with the guys, so I should definitely do this. It looks like a place for me to thrash. Like, you know, just kind of go crazy and get my yayas out. I realized that not a lot of people competed. I was every gym that I trained at, I was under multiple time world champions who made competition their life, but I also taught seminars at places where nobody competed, or I would train at friends' gyms or or visit, or we would just have people in our own gyms that didn't compete. And I remember a very specific time that I had a training partner who was very ferocious. She sat at a desk all day as like a graphic designer, a high-end graphic designer, and I was just a jiu-jitsu bum. So, I would just train, train, train, work out, sleep on the mat, everything. And then she would come at six for the night class after I'd already trained a bunch, and then she'd beat the shit out of me. And I'm like, what is happening? She's a hobbyist. This is not fair. You know, and Cobrinha would be like, well, it's okay because she, you know, you're you're the one that's tired all day, you know, like you're probably just you're not at your best right now. And that's okay or whatever. And I think about how people who don't take jiu-jitsu quote-unquote seriously can be really freaking good. And people who take it very seriously can be really bad and not consistent and really suck. And they're the guys that get the stripes and the belts just for like showing up and out of pity and whatever else. And so, I think it it's more of a systemic issue of not having a true standard for what each belt means, and, you know, lineage matters, I would say. But I would never say that jiu-jitsu is not for you. In fact, jiu-jitsu is not for everyone, but it's for anyone. And I am not one of those people that's like, jiu-jitsu for life, because I hit 35, and I'm already feeling really sore and going like, I don't know if I want to do that. As much as I love jiu-jitsu, I'm like, please, no, my body. And so, to gatekeep something by saying that it's this tough guy warrior fighting thing, when all you're doing is just hugging each other in pajamas, like, it's another one of those like, take a look at yourself and try to laugh at yourself because what you're saying is absolutely absurd in the grand scheme of things. People take people in the sport, especially even the people who have won it multiple world titles, they take themselves too seriously. They take, you know, oh, here, I'm going to put my rings on my finger, and I'm going to take, you know, a photoshoot like I'm Michael Jordan. And it's like, yeah, but like, you're not. Like, you're amazing. You're you're freaking amazing at what you do, but like, zoom out, my guy. It is jiu-jitsu, you know? And we want to make it a better sport, but then if we're going to gatekeep that only the serious people can be there, like, I don't know. I just don't get it. It's it's making my mind kind of angry because like, it just doesn't make any sense to me, and I feel like I've effectively weeded out those people from my life and my newsfeed. So, I don't see that. Maybe that's why I didn't see the guy that was laughing at the giggling. I agree, giggling could be kind of annoying, but like, yeah, that's a whole another thing. Speaker 1: Well, I'll just throw some thoughts on this and then I'll turn it back to you because I've got something I want to ask you. But I think people mistakenly assume that the way to build the best jiu-jitsu athletes is to just have these incredibly high standards and weed out all of the weak people. And that really could not be more wrong. If you look at performance sports that are a bit more established, the thing that makes things good is opening up the tent, right? Getting people in. Because a lot of it is just a game of numbers. To produce a star athlete, you've got to find the right person at the right time with the right natural talents and abilities, and get them in the right time of their life and pair them with the right coach and create the series of lucky circumstances that allow them to succeed in competition. And you can't always control for many of those factors. Some of those factors are completely out of the hands of the coach. So, if you try to shrink your gym by only catering to the very, very best, you're creating a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy where you're sort of hyper-fixating on the people who are already half-decent, whereas you're closing your doors to the people who might have that potential to be awesome one day. Really, if you want to build star athletes, the best thing to do is take as many shots as possible, get as many people through the door as you possibly can. And you're going to do that by making it a fun place to train. If people aren't having fun, then they're not going to hang around, and you're going to lose some of those potential stars before they ever get to that point. So, that's my take on why it matters to be inclusive from the coaching perspective. It's not just about making the sport accessible to everyone, it's also because that's probably the best chance you've got to really put star athletes consistently on the top of the podium is to get as many people through the door as possible. Speaker 2: I used to be really elite and uh, snobby about all of this. So, I used to call people nobodies. I used to call people bracket fillers if it was like a Worlds or a major and I had not seen their name before. I was a snob. Just through and through. And I didn't like that about myself. I hated that about myself, and I didn't realize that until I got out of the sport and I, you know, prematurely retired. And so, I think that's why this irks me so much is because why do we have to give so much care to creating champions? And I can't believe I'm like saying this. I think like my voice is like shuttering as like I say this because it goes against everything that when I started jiu-jitsu, it goes against because I wanted to be a black belt world champion. That's the only thing that I felt was going to give my life value because I came from a place of abuse when I was younger, and I had horrible self-esteem, and I was that kid in high school who like never found her place because I never wanted to be categorized, and I just wanted to be like this weird scene emo kid. And so, when I found jiu-jitsu, it was the first time I found something that was mine and that I could truly succeed in that I cared about, that was so engaging and challenging. And it was the challenge itself that created so much growth in my life, and it makes you face yourself, you know? And I've over the years realized that you don't need to compete to have those opportunities to challenge yourself because I have clients who are in their 60s and their 50s, and they truly just want to enjoy jiu-jitsu without having a panic attack because some guy came in to prove himself and shows, you know, the older purple belt guy, and now he feels like he's underwater fighting for his life. And so, as I've become this mental performance coach who has taken on even non-competitors, I see that jiu-jitsu is a catalyst for growth, but it it's also if you stick with just competition, you end up becoming a really horrible person for the most part. If you think that your fame and your accolades in jiu-jitsu are going to protect you from being having dementia and CTE later in life, or having, you know, horrible arthritis or Parkinson's, or that, you know, this is going to set you up for life and that you're always going to have Instagram followers and influencers, power and sponsors. And there is life outside of jiu-jitsu, and I think this whole perspective shift is important to remember that because if you don't have anything but jiu-jitsu, you will ruin your life by making jiu-jitsu your life. And when you isolate yourself in jiu-jitsu to only the competitive sphere, it that's what waters down jiu-jitsu. That's where you find the evil. That's where you find the manipulators. That's why you that's where you find the abuse. Um, it rarely happens in terms of people who are just trying to like, you know, have a hobby and have an outlet. It happens when people who are vulnerable, who need to build their self-esteem through jiu-jitsu, that they get taken advantage of. And so, I was one of those people, a lot of neurodivergent people who feel like they have yet to fit or belong anywhere, and now they finally find somewhere, and now their belonging is determined by their wins, things that they can't control. There is a real fear of social exclusion. In fact, it is said in some theories to be one of the main primal fears of a human being. It's wired in us for inclusion and safety and connection of the tribe. And so, if we do something like say something stupid, and now someone has a different perception of us, if that perception threatens my status or my reputation or the, you know, perceived image that I'm portraying, then it could feel like the world is ending. And so, that's I think also what comes to mind in competition. We don't say I am or we don't say I have a black belt, we say I am a black belt. There's a big issue in athletic identity because of the the lack of regulation. And it's very easy for people, and it's almost like status quo to dive and put your entire life in the hands of jiu-jitsu, of an unregulated sport where people are going to take advantage of you. And so, my job as a coach now is to protect people from that and advocate for themselves and remind themselves that they are paying customers at these tournaments and they are not to be taken advantage of and things like that. So, the advocacy part of me is so activated right now because like, this is where people think that jiu-jitsu lives, like in competition, but in reality, it can be the darkest side of the sport, and I've seen that, and I've been part of it, and I'm here to kind of say that like, there's more to jiu-jitsu than competition, and there's more to life than just jiu-jitsu. And this is coming from someone who used to wear a shirt that said, the only reason I work is to pay for jiu-jitsu, and my mom bought it for me for Christmas one year when I was a blue belt. Speaker 1: [Laughter] Speaker 2: Well, Aaron, I think that's maybe a time to maybe circle back to the work that you've put together. So, you've put your thoughts on humor and laughter in jiu-jitsu into a resource for people. But let's maybe evaluate the framework here. You talked about this a little bit earlier, but to expand on it, what are the main suggestions that you have for people who want to adapt this framework and bring some laughter into their training? Speaker 1: So, it's funny because we got to P and then we just went for a deep dive. So, I guess I'll give you the last three letters. So, the L stands for loosen up because tension and stress tend to be indicators of a bad performance, right? Rigidity, scarcity, being motivated by fear. So, being able to breathe, and laughter is actually breathwork in disguise. So, if you're able to laugh, it is an automatic reset button, and it puts you into that parasympathetic rest and digest mode, which obviously we don't want to go too much into because we don't want to get mat side and be like, ha, whatever, man, this is sick. So, you're not trying to like have a comedy routine going on in the bullpen because I would do that because like my nervous system is like, you should fawn. Like, you should start to amuse people and entertain them so that they forget that they're better than you. And then having the rest of it is A. A is adaptive confidence. So, this is where confidence is not having an answer for absolutely everything that could possibly happen. Confidence is believing that you have the ability to use your tools based on the circumstance that you're in and being able to read it and sorry, eco approach, going to say it. You have to know your affordances and opportunities and your constraints so that you can make better decisions. So, it helps you read the room better because now you're loose, right? You're not like, oh my God, you got to pull guard. Oh my God, you got to pull guard, right? You're like, whatever, it's cool. I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm primed. But it's allowing yourself to explore and be curious and open, which goes back to the perspective shift and relieving yourself of that pressure. And then the Y in Play is yes and. And so, it's it's committing to the bit even when it feels dumb. And so, it's the ability to have this duality and almost how to roll with mistakes instead of just like being like, well, I just, it's it's over now. Like, I got my guard passed, and this is it. Or seeing a loss as like, I suck at jiu-jitsu as a whole. Or fortune-telling, meaning, you know, if I lost this time, then I'm probably going to lose again. Or if I lost to this girl last time, and I'm fighting her again, she's probably going to beat me again. And it also allows you to identify that you can both feel scared and excited in the same moment. You can be nervous and also feel gratitude for the moment. There's duality there. So, it's whatever story you're telling yourself, and I choose to always kind of tell myself a story that is more funny and that I can laugh at later. I always say that I get myself in situations so that I have more lore for my friends later. I have ridiculous stories of my life that I'm like, how did that happen? Probably because I committed to the bit too hard. But being able to follow through with it and going, yes, it is hard, and I will also fight and do my best regardless because I'm here and I paid for it. Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought this up because we've talked about this before on the podcast, this idea of yes and. And for those who don't know, this is a concept that it actually is probably best known in improv comedy. And the idea behind it is when you are doing improv, and for those who don't know, improv is basically when you've got to invent the bit on the fly. Think of the show Whose Line Is It Anyway. You have to invent the joke on the fly. It's, I mean, at least to me, as someone who's never done improv, it sounds tremendously difficult to do. And one of the rules of improv is you never say no. Instead, you say yes and. And the reason behind that is because if someone tries to spin up a joke and you shut them down and you just say no, then you kill the bit, right? It gets awkward, you kill the momentum, and it's not funny. It's awkward instead of funny. So, with improv, you always have to roll with what the other person gives you. If they throw out a joke, or they throw out the first line of a joke, you've got to take it, pick up the ball and spin it and keep going and flow with it. And that's very similar to good coaching advice that we often give in jiu-jitsu. I know Rob Bernacki tells people, you want to train that way too. You want to train with yes and thinking. So, if you're playing some sort of game to develop skill with people, you're not necessarily trying to shut down everything they do. That's a valid strategy in competition, but when you're trying to learn, if you just don't let your opponent do anything, or rather, if you don't let your training partner do anything, then you're not going to get anything done, right? If you just hold them in position for five minutes, nobody's learned anything. So, good skill development involves yes and thinking, where you're trying to let them do something so that you can riff off of it. That's the way that I would define flow rolling. People sometimes ask what it is. It's where you don't put up excessive resistance to your opponent, but rather, you flow with what they're doing, and you allow them to work so that you can work. And I think that kind of culture translates tremendously well to jiu-jitsu. I also love how you've tied that in from the perspective of laughter here because of course that is where the concept comes from. Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's action reaction. If I am just holding you in neon belly, I am not allowing you to hip out, which will allow me to spin to your back. I'm not allowing you to grab at my knee so I can scoop up your arm for a spinning armbar. Like, nothing is going to happen. And the idea is that each match is a phenomenon. I watch matches that I'm like, I don't really know what I did there. It was a little weird. It got weird, but I got her done kind of thing. And I've seen myself do sweeps where I'm like, I could not replicate that, even if I tried to break it down. Like, it just it was such a conditional, contextual move from the weight of my opponent to the the energy she used and the momentum. And I have to take what is given to me. And there are times when I can poke and prod and create that reaction if it's not happening. If my opponent is choosing not to be my dance partner, right? There are ways to make that sort of happen, try to engage them. But if both people are not fully engaged, then the process is just stalled. And it makes things hard, and it puts you in a position where you have this stalled form of jiu-jitsu where it actually invites overthinking and hesitation because now you're you're getting into that mental chess match of having too much time to think, and it's a trap. I swear, it's a trap. Do not be too in your head when you are rolling. That's where the flow comes in. And what's so interesting is that we we try to reach flow, this engagement, this, you know, let's not check our phones so much. Let's be so engaged in the the presence that we don't even think about anything else. And I think people try too hard to make that happen. They say things like, leave your life off the mat. When you get on the mat, now you can just focus on jiu-jitsu. And that works for some people, especially when there's a literal transformation of I drive to a gym that only has this purpose of rolling with sweaty people, and I put on this uniform that I only wear at this location. And then I do this thing like I bow, and I mark this start, and then we line up, and we do this very official thing. Like, yes, that's very easy. But in life, rolling with the punches means that you can't ask for a time out. Just like in jiu-jitsu, there are no rounds, right? You can't just go, wait, I need to think about this for a second. Like, you don't get that opportunity. And so, when I look at what Play, this framework does, is it allows people in a, you know, guise of humor to be more cognitively or psychologically flexible. And that's my job. When you sink into rigidity out of fear or scarcity, you no longer fight to your capabilities. You no longer act and in your in a way of authenticity. And so, that's why I always go back to values, that values I maybe you won't find humor actually on my values list because it is such who I am. In fact, I will say this, I took the VIA character strength. It's a free test that they give you for there's uh 24 major strengths in all of humans, they say. And then you categorize them and then um order them of like how much you have. And mine oscillates because I like to check in with mine. Mine oscillates, my first one is either honesty or humor. And so, that kind of goes with how I live life. I've always learned to make fun of myself and make fun of others and use myself as an entertainment and amusement for others because I know what it feels like to not be able to laugh at certain situations that you're in in life. And I just think, obviously, yeah, laughing is great. But one final story I do want to add, which I think is relevant oddly enough. When I was in high school, we had an AP Lit teacher. Like, we read Crime and Punishment, and she literally made borscht and brought it in for us. Like, she was just so hands-on. And for what I don't even know what part of the that we were learning in class, but she said, okay, there's this such thing as laughology. And, you know, psychology of laughter. And there's this exercise that you guys can do to get extra credit. And I want you at lunchtime. Meanwhile, I'm in a public high school in LA County where there are 2,700 people. And I'm a senior, and I'm expected to go on the outdoor stage in the middle of lunch with my classmates and fake laugh. And we would she told us, you start to fake laugh, and then everybody's fake laughing, and then you watch as it turns into real laughter, which then becomes contagious. And people will laugh based on that. And it was like an experiment. And it was the most awkward thing to do ever. But it was so interesting that when you start to mimic laughter or mock something, it ends up inviting the exact sensation that causes real laughter. And so, if you guys ever want to try that, I think that would be a really interesting experiment to do in your jiu-jitsu gym. And it may not take a lot depending on your culture. But I would say, and this is my little hypothesis here, it's not official. I would say that more psychologically safe environments will activate real laughter much sooner than a place where people are not made to be able to be authentic and might have to break through that social stigma before they laugh in on everything. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I've been at a lot of gyms where I was really impressed by the culture, and I've been at a lot of gyms where I really was not. And something that I've observed is that a lot of those gyms where I just didn't like the culture, everything was so serious. Like, there was just no fun to be had, right? It was all work. And so, I think that aspect of bringing some play into things is important. Now, Aaron, I am well aware that probably 75% of our audience is either commuting or taking care of their kids or on the toilet or doing chores while they're listening to this. So, just in case they zoned out while you were talking, why don't you break down just very quickly the four stages of Play again, just so that people don't miss it. Audience, listen this time. Listen. Speaker 2: Okay, I'll try to be concise. It's not my it's not my forte. So, the Play framework is P is the perspective shift. So, it's being able to reframe pressure with humor, being able to find the funny, you know, in my book I personify your inner doubt. So, being able to mock yourself and make fun of yourself or the situation, or take the 30,000-foot view that says, look at how absurd this is for me to take this so seriously in the grand scheme of life. L stands for loosen up. So, this is where we regulate stress because stress and the uh, fight or flight response creates muscle tension, and tension is not great for being able to be adaptive, which is what we need in such a complex and dynamic sport. So, using humor to be able to have like a pre-game ritual where you make fun of yourself and talk like you're narrating your worst performance of your life, or pairing it with breathwork, things like that to be able to regulate the stress. And then A is for adaptive confidence because dealing with mistakes is essential. Recovering from mistakes is essential. You will make mistakes. You absolutely will. I repeat, you will make mistakes. And that is the way you learn. And some mistakes you can recover from, and some you can't. That you'll learn too. So, adaptive confidence is not having an answer for every possible outcome or what if or mind-mapping your entire game. It's knowing that you can improvise in the moment. Speaking of improvisation, Y is yes and. So, committing to the bit, knowing that there are no timeouts and that you can roll with the punches and whatever happens, you will be able to respond, and you have to just keep swimming. You just have to keep moving, and that is usually the solution to overthinking and perfectionism because it allows you to think about exaggerated or funny ways of things happening rather than meeting your doom or feeling existential sense of dread. Speaker 1: Amazing, Aaron. Well, listeners know that you're one of my favorite mindset coaches in the space. It's pretty unlikely that you're going to find someone who's got that same background in mental coaching and also in jiu-jitsu. So, if people out there at any level, whether they're a hobbyist or a professional, if they're resonating with this message and they feel like they're struggling with the mental side of jiu-jitsu, they're just not finding the fun anymore, and if they want to either check out your book or if they want to work with you, how do they do that? Speaker 2: They can go to my website, AaronHurley.com. If you happen to know some executives or high-performance professionals or high-stakes professionals, I have a different site called HighMentalPerformance.com for the non-athlete side. So, that's a little bit of me branching out there. And if you want to buy my book, it is available on Amazon, little paperback and ebook on Kindle. If you are not a fan of Amazon, message me on Instagram. It's my full name. Message me there, and I will give you the Google Doc if you like because I understand. And if you want to work with me, you can book a call on the website, or you can reach out on my Instagram or email and just tell me what you're thinking, what you're feeling, and I will start the conversation from there. And then you'll book a call, a chemistry call. We'll talk. We will make sure we like each other, which I'm sure we will because I've kind of just put myself out there. So, I feel like if you know if you like me or not, you're going to know. And then, yeah, we'll uh, there's also group sessions that I'm going to start up. I just haven't. I used to have an online course that I might restart, but that's a whole another story. This is being a solopreneur and trying to figure out how to help the most people. But I hope to just kind of spread the information. And my biggest thing is I want to work with you maybe five sessions or more if you want. I get it. If you want to work with me longer. But I believe in teaching you how to fish, so to speak, so that you can be your own inner coach and that you're not necessarily reliant on me and that I'm able to pass on the skills for you to help yourself. So, that's my entire goal. So, if that sounds like something that you would want to work with, and if you maybe think I'm funny, then definitely work with me, and we'll talk. Speaker 1: Amazing. Well, thank you, Aaron. As I always do, I will put all of those links in the show notes to make it easy for people to find you, find your book, and contact you in case they're interested. I'll also put a link to everything we make. It all lives at BJJ Mental Models dot com, so it's quite easy to find. That's where every episode of our podcast is. They're all intended to be timeless and educational. And of course, they're free with no ads. So, feel free to go back and check those out. People use those as a learning resource. Even the very early episodes, way back to episode one. For those who don't want to spend hundreds of hours listening to me yap, we've also started releasing little mini episodes, which are on the same feed. These are intended to quickly introduce some of the most critical key concepts in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Not just the mechanics of how it works, but really all levels, including strategy and culture as well. And of course, if you want to take it to the next level with us, BJJ Mental Models Premium is what I always ask people consider checking out. That is our paid subscription service. It is the best offering that we've got. It includes everything that we make all in one package. In terms of why you'd want to do that, you get access to the biggest and best library of jiu-jitsu audio courses anywhere in the world. We've got tons of incredible instructors who introduce and share their framework for thinking about jiu-jitsu, getting better, learning, conquering mindset issues. One of those, of course, is Aaron Hurley. We recently produced a course with her called The War Within on the mental game. That's included in Premium, so I definitely do recommend checking that out. You also get access to our kick-ass community, which I really can't encourage people to check out enough. And beyond that, go up to the next level, and you can even get direct coaching from some really incredible black belts like Brianna Saint-Marie, Marco Chicarelli, even Emily Kwok is on there as well. So, do consider checking that out. I would love to work with people, really help them level up their jiu-jitsu. If you're tired of video instructionals, if you're tired of more YouTube clips on armbars, I really recommend trying something different, and BJJ Mental Models Premium is definitely different. So, all of that is at BJJ Mental Models dot com, and again, link to that in the show notes. But Aaron, as always, thank you so much for coming by. You know I love having these chats. I love talking to someone who is so open as an advocate for kind of the fun side, the vulnerable side of jiu-jitsu. That's really my vision for where I want to see the sport develop into, away from this kind of, you know, like alpha bro mentality, and into something that is more more a tool to elevate everybody. And I think that what you're doing, the work you're doing helps real people solve real problems and find the joy in the sport. So, thank you for everything that you do, and thank you for coming by as well. Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. I always appreciate this outlet, and I always appreciate our conversations. You make my work make more sense with your with your existing knowledge. So, I love having these chats, and I look forward to more in the future. Speaker 1: The nicest thing anyone's ever said to me. Thank you so much, Aaron. And thank you to the listeners as well. It's not lost on me that people invest a lot of their time here when they could be doing other stuff. And there's a lot of other content out there. The fact that people choose BJJ Mental Models, it really does mean a lot to me. So, thank you so much to everyone out there, and we will talk to you next time. See you then. [Music]